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  1. #1
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    Default Kooti Needs Help

    HI, Kooti back again. I am very confused. I have a 1984 505 with a 2.2 fuel injected overhead cam petrol engine which currently has the head removed to fix an Oil leak. I was originally on the understanding the original head bolts could be reused? the mechanic doing the job for me has been told by a local head reconditioning business who surface ground the head off my vehicle that as the engine is alloy block and they are stress bolts they cannot be reused.
    Is there anyone out there who is able to clarify the dilemma I have for me. I tried to purchase a new set of Head bolts here in OZ but kept coming up against a brick wall with parts suppliers saying there were none in the country, so I went online and found a set that are supposed to be the right ones??? in Belarus, however even though they are coming priority freight, I feel because of the distance involved they are going to be some time in getting here.
    Can anyone out there put me out of my confusion.
    Even though my 505 has had more hits then Elvis Presley, I love her very much. However getting accurate information is proving very frustrating. Please help!!
    Cheers James

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    My renault had the same block and head more or less and it always had reused head bolts.
    They were just torqued up in 3 or so rounds to about …ummmm ….memory strain……95Nm????


    Jo
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    East European mail services have improved a lot in the last few years. Where parcels could take three months to arrive lately anything from Ukraine or Russia is here in under two weeks which is no difference to France. Belarus I don't know. If you can read cyrillic they always note the post offices that handle the parcel and there's quite a few. I should add that in the last few months Australia Post parcel deliveries haven't been too good, even Priority Paid. So things can get here quickly from overseas and sit for a week or more.
    Last edited by pinnaroo; 29th November 2017 at 09:19 PM.

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    Thanks Jo and Pinnaroo for your replies. Jo hopefully now you can see my dilemma. I have been told they can be used and I have been told they cant be reused, however i am unable to find anything in print from Peugeot verifying they can be reused.
    Pinnaroo, this is my first experience with ordering parts from overseas and your right Belarus is a long way from here. this being said they have assured me they are the right bolts and they can supply most parts for my vehicle. it will be interesting to see how long they take to get here. I have been tracking them on UPS which is the delivery service being used and at present they are apparently in Detroit after going to Germany and a few other places.
    I will keep you all updated.
    thanks for getting back to me.
    Regards J

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    Ouch! The parts shouldn't have gone to America. As far as I can see European parts coming to Australia go via a European hub which might be Netherlands and then to Singapore which is a major freight hub then Australia. Freight from America takes a while and I suspect it isn't the quickest path.

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    Hi Kooti
    I cannot comment directly on that engine but generally head bolts can be reused even if they are "yield" bolts. Of course these days everybody says all head bolts must be replaced no matter what. 'stress bolts' ?? That engine was used in various cars over some years.

    What is the procedure given for tightening the bolts. That will tell you whether they are ""tighten to yield" bolts. These always involves an angle measurement as the last step or two steps. If the procedure has only torque setting for the bolts then they are not "yield bolts" and will be be quite OK to reuse if properly cleaned and lubricated as the book says. The same applies to the block threads too.

    "Tighten to yield bolts" can be also be reused safely up to several times if inspected and checked. Certainly if from an unmollested engine and the first reuse they are usually quite OK. IMHO.
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 30th November 2017 at 09:52 AM.

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    I don't blame mechanic for not wanting to reuse the head bolts, especially after the guy that runs engine reconditioning place here told him they should not be reused as they break don't know where he ( engines guy) got his information from but it was enough to scare mechanic into not reusing them.
    Just got an email from UPS "United Parcel Service" saying package "Head Bolts" will be delivered tomorrow. I have to say I wouldn't have minded doing the trip they have been on, Belarus, Germany, Philadelphia, Louisville, Honolulu and now hopefully on its way to Sydney. I'm hoping it won't take the same amount of time to get from Sydney to me here as it took from Belarus to Sydney. will keep you updated about arrival time.

    Thanks Jaahn

    The Peugeot book I found says the following
    1 Tighten initially to 5mdaN
    2 Tighten to 8mdaN
    3 Tighten Proceeding bolt by bolt starting with bolt number 1 loosen each bolt by 1/4 turn then re-tighten it to final torque of 9.5mdaN

    I don't know if bolts have been used previously? however they were extremely tight, mechanic had to use quite a big/long breaker bar with another person assisting him to undo them.
    Thanks again, I appreciate everyone's assistance J
    Last edited by Kooti; 30th November 2017 at 10:51 AM.

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    Hi Kooti

    The Haynes manual and the Peugeot factory workshop manual do not say to replace the head bolts, and having rebuilt a number of these engines successfully without replacing them, I am confident they don't need replacing, however obviously you need to weigh up all the information you have got and decide which way to go, it is very common to use a long breaker bar to undo these head bolts.

    Regards
    Neil

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    Thanks Neil.
    Appreciate you getting back to me, if i was doing it myself "based on the information i received from everyone" i would have reused the bolts, but seeing as how i am unable to physically do the job so i am paying a mechanic to do the job and he won't reuse bolts based on information he has been given "be it right or wrong" I had no option to buy new new ones. Hopefully they will be here soon and i can get it back on the road. I appreciate everyone's help on this.
    After all this I just hope it stops the oil leak.
    is anyone aware of where in Australia parts like the head bolts can be sourced?
    Cheers J

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    I would always advise replacing these bolts. Modern head bolts are designed to stretch and so provide the hold down force on the head. Once used they do not recover their original length. On a diesel this is most important. Having just done a top end job on my 2.0 litre diesel, I replaced the bolts and gaskets as used, sourced from Germany.
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    Hi Kooti
    appreciate the difficult position your in, you do what you have to, Gerry, I would hardly call a Peugeot 505 a modern car, as far as I know Peugeot only went to replaceable head bolts after the 505, for petrol engines anyway, don't know about diesels.
    Regards
    Neeil
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I understand the 505SLI (Bosch injection) used tty head bolts.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    Hi
    From my observation when engine manufacturers move to TTY bolts in the same engine type the size of the bolts changes as well as the bolt metallurgy spec. There are technical reasons for this which I will leave unsaid here. BUT the major reason for TTY bolts was actually the improvement in reliabilty of the head tension on the gasket when tightened by a robot which of course all manufacturers started using for every thing. It is easier to get a machine to limit to a set angle than a set torque. At yield the bolt tension is a very controlled force not dependent on the friction of the threads.

    So that is the reason they took over. But the bolt spec is different as the old bolts were high tensile with a high yield point but the TTY bolts are not a very high tensile with a very large plastic range after the yield point. Possibly 100 times+ more than the yield required for one use.
    Jaahn

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    Thanks To All who replied with information. I'm just hoping the Head Bolts I have ordered are the right ones? Amazing that the bolts can travel from Lithuania via Germany the United states and be in Botany in four days, however that's where information trail stops. Hopefully they will make it to Tamworth by Monday??? I'd like to get my car back before Christmas. I'm thinking of doing a colour change on my 505. I have attached are cartoon photo of my car with the new colour scheme I'm thing of using. Feedback would be appreciated
    Kooti Needs Help-pug-cartoon.jpg
    Cheers J
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  15. #15
    cjl
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    The original bolts are reusable. I rebuilt a STI motor many years and 200,000 KM ago no problems since with the original bolts. I checked a set of bolts from a dismantled 2.2 today and they are marked 11.9 on the head.
    I also found with the PRV V6 years ago that I was told I needed to replace head bolts. The replacement TTY after market bolts they sell are 8.8 bolts the original are 10.9 tensile. the 8.8 bolts stretch far more than the 10.9 bolts.
    I have always had success reusing the original high tensile bolts.

    Chris.
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Probably best to play it safe, Kooti. If a bolt breaks, it's a real pain to undo everything, extract stub, clean up, and re-do.

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    Taxi orange? By this age any 505 has carried many a passenger.

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    Hi All. Head bolts arrived this afternoon. Unfortunately i don't have one that came out of my engine to compare them against Chris you have said in your message the bolts heads are marked with 11.9, these bolt heads have 11 stamped on them but it looks like 00 underneath the 11. I hope they are the right ones??? the box is marked Renault with all the Renault models they should fit. any ideas out there??
    I probably wont sleep tonight worrying if they are the right ones.
    Cheers J.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kooti View Post
    Hi All. Head bolts arrived this afternoon. Unfortunately i don't have one that came out of my engine to compare them against Chris you have said in your message the bolts heads are marked with 11.9, these bolt heads have 11 stamped on them but it looks like 00 underneath the 11. I hope they are the right ones??? the box is marked Renault with all the Renault models they should fit. any ideas out there??
    I probably wont sleep tonight worrying if they are the right ones.
    Cheers J.
    I dont think Renault do angle tightening.
    If the Peugeot method takes them much higher than 95Nm be concerned!!

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I am not familiar with your engine, but another thing to consider is whether or not the bolts can become brittle on the exhaust side. The Renault/Toyota/Honda/Hyundai engines I have worked on all accepted reused bolts, but on some of these I have found the bolts on the exhaust side had hardened like glass because of the heat cycling and preferred to replace them (with used bolts, of course, but good ones). BMW specified head bolts should be renewed even for cars from the sixties.

    This may be the reason behind people suggesting you use new bolts, especially in your case where the torque is nothing really. At 95Nm you barely clamp that head gasket. You can achieve that torque with two fingers on the socket driver. The torque to yield bolts I have done (Peugeot 205GTI) took a lot of force to turn the last 300degrees.
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    Hi to all who have helped me with information through the year.
    Your patience and input through the year have been much appreciated. The head is finally back on my 505, thankfully the head bolts from Lithuania were the right ones. 505 is not completely back together, so not running as yet "but were are getting there"
    All the best for Christmas and New Year. Hope 2018 is a good one for all.
    Cheers Kooti

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    Hi Everyone.
    Hope all had a good Christmas.
    i am back again seeking knowledge. I have to remove front guard which has been damaged, I'm ok with the top half, however cannot see where guard attaches on the bottom. I have looked in with drivers door open but I'm unable to figure out how it attaches to the body at the bottom as there doesn't seem to be any bolt/nut or screw holding it.
    Is anyone able to help me with this info?
    all help appreciate.
    thanks Kooti

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    .....The torque to yield bolts I have done (Peugeot 205GTI) took a lot of force to turn the last 300degrees.
    Youch, 300!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kooti View Post
    Hi Everyone.
    Hope all had a good Christmas.
    i am back again seeking knowledge. I have to remove front guard which has been damaged, I'm ok with the top half, however cannot see where guard attaches on the bottom. I have looked in with drivers door open but I'm unable to figure out how it attaches to the body at the bottom as there doesn't seem to be any bolt/nut or screw holding it.
    Is anyone able to help me with this info?
    all help appreciate.
    thanks Kooti
    On a 505, I pretty sure you have to remove the front bumper to access the screws at the bottom front. At the back, there should be a small screw under the lip of the bottom edge of the guard.Kooti Needs Help-img_1466.jpgKooti Needs Help-img_1467.jpg

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    Thanks for the info, I think the screw at the bottom of the guard has somehow been covered, maybe by body filler? Might have to do some investigation with a sharp instrument.
    Cheers Kooti

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