Your thoughts/experiences?... Citroen, Mercedes, other marques.
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Thread: Your thoughts/experiences?... Citroen, Mercedes, other marques.

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Default Your thoughts/experiences?... Citroen, Mercedes, other marques.

    Particularly interested in your personal experiences. I have always owned French cars, particularly Citroen (as below), and I am very fond of my current 2005 C5 HDi wagon. It is a little large for day to day city use, so I'm *entertaining* whether to look for .... something..... but I'm looking at a very low budget, say $5,000 - $6,000.

    I have many friends who are Benz aficionados, my web research suggests the E300 / 300D (I'm favouring a coupe rather than a four door) and apparently early 90's.

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    Anyway, no firm decisions, (may stick with the C5), but I'm interested in those that have experience with other marques and models as compared with Citroen.

    Preferred parameters: not too large (compact 4 door/hatch/coupe), economic, comfortable, auto, reliable, with some character. Thoughts?
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  2. #2
    Tadpole
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    A tough question! I think the biggest problem you'll have in your budget is combining interesting and auto with reliable.
    There are decent 307s, 407s, C4s, Meganes out there in your budget but I would personally steer clear of the AL4 gearbox if possible. Your experiences may differ from mine, though!

    Looking elsewhere, perhaps;
    Volvo S40 (especially one with the turbo 5 cylinder engine)
    Audi A4
    Jaguar X-Type?

    I've owned a Volvo S40 and it was very comfortable for a cheap car! Great sound system, low wind noise, soft seats and suspension. The only downsides are expensive maintenance costs and high fuel usage. The turbo 5 cylinder is known to like a drink!

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    I've found Benz parts pricing either horrendous - if genuine only available, or cheap as, if non-gen available. The left front seatbelt retractor spring broke on my CLK500. A new seatbelt was only available genuine through Merceres for $1000, just for the part . I bought a second hand one (wrong colour webbing) and swapped over the mechanism. Whole job cost me $120.
    The trans service kit on the other hand, included a filter, pan seal and wiring harness connector and seal for the loom to go into the casing as they leak internally into the loom and fritz the trans computer. The kit was non-gen for about $60 from memory. I've found most jobs, especially maintenance, a piece of cake on the car. Some things like the crank angle sensor tested me out, being located on the block behind the left bank cylinder head. Couldn't even see it, so replacing using a mirror was fun ..... Not
    Sensational car to drive though. Very comfortable, economical and hugely powerful

    I forgot to say, I'd hate to have to pay someone to work it!
    Last edited by J-man; 7th November 2017 at 02:23 PM.
    cheers,

    John

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    I've found Benz parts pricing either horrendous - if genuine only available, or cheap as, if non-gen available. The left front seatbelt retractor spring broke on my CLK500. A new seatbelt was only available genuine through Merceres for $1000, just for the part . I bought a second hand one (wrong colour webbing) and swapped over the mechanism. Whole job cost me $120.
    The trans service kit on the other hand, included a filter, pan seal and wiring harness connector and seal for the loom to go into the casing as they leak internally into the loom and fritz the trans computer. The kit was non-gen for about $60 from memory. I've found most jobs, especially maintenance, a piece of cake on the car. Some things like the crank angle sensor tested me out, being located on the block behind the left bank cylinder head. Couldn't even see it, so replacing using a mirror was fun ..... Not
    Sensational car to drive though. Very comfortable, economical and hugely powerful

    I forgot to say, I'd hate to have to pay someone to work it!
    I have a mate who is into 7 series B'mers and on a recent overseas trip he filled hid suitcase with suitable parts, sensors, consumables etc etc as the price difference was astronomical. Something around 20 Euros in a discount car parts place in Germany, could be between $80 - $120 here as a rough guide and it wasn't just one thing.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    I am very happy with my Mazda 6. Everyone knows how to service it and it doesn't need parts. The C5 is still in bits as I wait for parts from Europe.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    740/940 volvo turbo wagon?!


    W124 coupe or sedan. Both can have powerful motors in the right models.

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback so far!

    Gunner:
    I would personally steer clear of the AL4 gearbox if possible. Your experiences may differ from mine, though!


    Yes, agreed, my current C5 doesn't have the AL4 (my previous 2 x C5s did ... ) and indeed, I would steer clear of them.
    (I was once offered a cheap, immac one owner Xsara ...with what seemed like an obvious AL4 gearbox "problem...")

    I do like the C4 2.0 HDI 6 speed auto, but not many other model C4s. That model was a Mini Cooper beater IMHO.
    The VTS C4 is fun, but is: (a) manual (b) not exactly a great ride, and needs revving to maximise the fun.

    My colleague just bought an E320 (circa 2003) and I have been for a highway ride; very nice car indeed, suspension pretty good (E class are nice, C class not so much) its somewhat large and thirsty, otherwise a very superior car (and relatively cheap).

    I owned an Audi 90 2.3E for some years, very nice car, but not so keen on the A4 (let alone the cost).
    The Jaguars I am familiar with are, erm, not reliable, (and rather dull compared to Citroens), but I'm not familiar with the X type.

    The top-end BMWs are definitely for those who can do the work .. and afford the parts!

    I've driven quite a few Benzes, (but never owned one). The C180 and C200 look fab, but the Citroen is a better thing. I didn't find them convincing to drive. Also poor visibility. And, of course, expensive compared to the C5s.
    The A and B Class were rather bone jarring, and didn't appeal at all.
    You've gotta get to E class to start to get a "ride" that approaches the Citroen hydraulic models, and the more superior fit-outs and features.

    I have also test driven quite a few Pugs, and a colleague owns a 407.

    The E Class Benzes seem like the sweet spot, (early-mid 2000s) although the bigger engined ones are not fuel friendly!
    The 300D (diesel) Benzes get excellent raves. As do W124s.

    68 404: I saw that E430 .... nice, but again, probably too big, and thirsty. Thirsty Merc?

    I'm not likely to do much work myself, so, indeed, cost of work/parts is important.
    I have "managed" with Citroens for a long time, and the labour/parts thing is reasonably well sorted for me.

    The hard thing is... um, to go to a Mazda, Volvo, etc .... (which can be very sensible, and economical compared to the others), but not exotic. I've owned a Volvo, and a Honda.

    As mentioned, I may stick with the Citroen ... it isn't a pressing decision.
    The wagon I presently own was great when I was building, but is a bit too big for day-to-day (so, ditto the Volvo wagon).

    I do appreciate your thoughts, especially those who have owned and operated Citroen alternatives.

    I don't think they exist, but a mid/early 2000s "E300D coupe" would (on paper) be A Good Thing.
    All the ones on offer in Oz are older.
    Last edited by garyk; 7th November 2017 at 08:07 PM.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

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    My wife moved to a MB B200 after 3 Scenics, doesn't have some of the useful storage spaces of the Scenics but is overall a much better car; all of the ergonomics make sense for a start
    I've been surprised how enjoyable it is as a no-stress highway mile eater.

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    Benz use....used Citroen hydraulics...pay Peugeot accordingly.. .Beemer...if I wrote what I knew about them from extremely honest sources...you would TOTALLY ignore same..So what about a 505 GTI .....made twice the price German Holden...180 e....look like a completely woeful piece of worn out toilet paper...little out of left field...club rego....not huge ??? I definitely not prejudiced..but I do have a healthy bias...that is a leaning toward....not pre judging....put article up on f book last night when people goggle eyes about benzez....brother nearly died in His in very low impact crash...engine did not deflect....into firewall...so close...another half inch...bye bye..anyway...wait till you find something you fall totally in love with....like you did when you met.your wife( I do hope you got a special one)...anyway...205 so auto....wow...what an awesome honey of a car....little hard to find these days...just thought....if still available...there was an extremely rare 205 si sedan ...auto I think...woefully cheap...looked like needed a good bubble bath...to sweeten her up...if you are adventurous...anyway..A couple of curved balls...enjoy your search...

    Sent from my HUAWEI TAG-L22 using aussiefrogs mobile app

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Oh...I still am a fair way off abandoning Citroen!
    Just seeking "experienced comments" at this stage.
    And I'm sure other marques have a lot to offer.
    Always respected the older Pugs, and can't afford anything new.

    As mentioned, I do like "E" class Benzes, but not much below them, and I think you have to go to an E to get Citroen ride (etc).
    My friend just acquired an E320 (circa 2003) and its impressive. But a lot of electronic gadgetry...

    My biggest fear is that a *nice* Benz is likely to be very expensive to repair and maintain.
    I kinda reckon you get great Citroen value at 1/3rd - 1/4 of the outlay, and probably ½ - 1/4 of the cost for repairs!

    Thus my call-out for feedback.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Those Mercs around 2003 hit electronic reliability problems, door locks, window winders etc
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    I’m very happy with my GS. It does everything with aplomb and still looks comparatively modern in its styling. In fact I’d say other cars have just now finally caught up with the GS stylewise. It blends in seamlessly with today’s moderns and doesn’t look like a relic of another era. It’s easy to service and maintain, has impeccable road manners, is brilliantly economical (see my consumption figures in the Tennant Creek thread) and totally dependable.

    Regarding the suspension.... as good as it is... the almost dogmatic view of a lot of Citroen tragics here that nothing else compares is bollocks.... from my experience the ride is not too dissimilar to my old ‘67 404. Peugeot had definitely caught up by this time.

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    Recent purchase of c4 turbo diesel 6sp.auto;car has everything except the hyd.ride.Brisbane to Sydney returning home cost $75 and goes like a jet,very impressed. The fact there are no identifying badges on the back makes it even better.
    Andy.

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    The 2.0HDi C4 6 speed is indeed impressive, and a different beastie from most C4s.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  16. #16
    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhantos View Post
    Recent purchase of c4 turbo diesel 6sp.auto;car has everything except the hyd.ride.Brisbane to Sydney returning home cost $75 and goes like a jet,very impressed. The fact there are no identifying badges on the back makes it even better.
    Andy.
    Stick on a BMW badge on the back, Andy. Firstly, it will make you the fastest BMW on the road and secondly it will raise consternation in the BMW retail world as people start asking for this new fast BMW.

    John
    alhantos likes this.

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    1000+ Posts N5GTi6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    ....snip....

    Preferred parameters: not too large (compact 4 door/hatch/coupe), economic, comfortable, auto, reliable, with some character. Thoughts?
    Merc W210 makes no sense at all given those criteria..

    2005 C5 HDi wagon - Length 4,839 mm (190.5 in) (wagon)
    Mercedes-Benz W210 (1996-2003 models) - Length 4,818 mm (189.7 in )

    So you would save 2cm in total length.

    Mercedes-Benz W124 might make a little more sense
    Length sedan: 187.2 in (4,755 mm)
    estate: 188.2 in (4,780 mm)
    coupé: 183.9 in (4,671 mm)

    Cheers

    Justin
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    Particularly interested in your personal experiences. I have always owned French cars, particularly Citroen (as below), and I am very fond of my current 2005 C5 HDi wagon. It is a little large for day to day city use, so I'm *entertaining* whether to look for .... something..... but I'm looking at a very low budget, say $5,000 - $6,000.

    I have many friends who are Benz aficionados, my web research suggests the E300 / 300D (I'm favouring a coupe rather than a four door) and apparently early 90's.

    Anyway, no firm decisions, (may stick with the C5), but I'm interested in those that have experience with other marques and models as compared with Citroen.

    Preferred parameters: not too large (compact 4 door/hatch/coupe), economic, comfortable, auto, reliable, with some character. Thoughts?
    Hmm. Nobody mentioned Toyota yet, so I'll do it.

    And to respond to your requirements, I would suggest a Prius.

    No, I am not joking. In fact I would buy one.


    There's a whole lot of good ones in your price range, they are not too large, four door, comfortable, economical, reliable, auto and by now they have established their character.

    I have only ever driven the old one (second gen), but I think they're still made today and I think the facelifted version looks quite cool. What amazed me (apart from the Toyota quality) is the comfort (and they come with all oldies but goodies from Toyota, power everything, powerful A/C even on electric when standing still at the lights, great sound system, seats, driving, everything). But on top of everything else, the drive is way underrated. The electric power just invites you to switch to electric only and enjoy the silence. Don't though, because you won't get very far. What about driver's involvement? Well, the car is weird in that it responds instantly due to its electric motor that cuts in when you put your foot down, so you don't have any auto trans lag or the downshift jerk to build up revs. The handling ability is more readily safe than entertaining, but it can get entertaining very easily, just keep your foot down.

    Seriously. This is a way underrated car. Your budget should land you a very good one with under 150k on the clock or better if you dig a little.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 28th November 2017 at 11:11 PM.
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Thanks (as usual).

    Yes indeed Justin ... one of the trade-offs is that the nicer riding E class options would still be large-ish cars.
    The smaller Benz coupes didn't do it for me, (and indeed, it may be an impossible trade off).

    As mentioned, its more of a mental exercise than an immediate jump, and I may well go and drive a few "options" in the list.

    Two Prius questions/observations:

    a) not exactly pretty cars!

    b) "it is said" that electric cars that are nearing the end of the battery life cycle will be expensive if new batteries are needed.
    But I have no direct knowledge about this.

    It certainly seems that all-electric cars in Oz are somewhat problematic for long drives, so hybrids are probably a better option in the current technology. (Apology for the pun).
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    b) "it is said" that electric cars that are nearing the end of the battery life cycle will be expensive if new batteries are needed.
    But I have no direct knowledge about this.
    All Toyota and Lexus Hybrids have an 8 year/ 160km replacement warranty on propulsion batteries . And battery failure generally isn't an issue for several years after the warranty has expired.

    Most people wouldn't keep a contemporary car longer 8 years, so batteries wouldn't be a concern for most.

    EDIT: If you haven't had an extended test drive of a Mercedes B Class 250 4matic, you owe it to yourself to arrange one.

    On the other hand if you want a larger vehicle have a test drive of BMW M760Li xDrive.

    I can unreservedly recommend either.
    Last edited by robmac; 29th November 2017 at 03:32 PM.
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Most people wouldn't keep a contemporary car longer 8 years.

    Ah, well, I'm guessing on this forum, 8 years is just a pup.


    Mine is 12 years old now and I'm just thinking about it now .....
    and I only bought it about 3 years ago....
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    A 12 year car would send most car owners broke.

    And not everyone has the capability nor desire to be under cars during their leisure time.

    I'm 65 with a chronic illness and this has largely removed my interest in doing major maintenance on cars.

    I wouldn't think I'm alone in this regard.
    Departed the Aussie Frogs Community 14 September 2018.

    The moderator/leader should not operate for the sole benefit of himself and his kind but for the benefit of the people at large and of the AF Fraternity and its patterns, as becomes what he perceives as fitting into place, into his sense of natural justice.
    with apologies to Judy Grahn

  23. #23
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    I have never kept a vehicle less than 20 years, and most of them have had all costs recorded. The oldies are way the cheapest to run maintain and repair, once depreciation has done its work. Rust or major $$ stuff like an auto box is what kills them.

    For most people money doesn't grow on trees. You may have noticed that home mechanics become more numerous as you leave the inner city. Routine maintenance isn't difficult.
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post

    For Routine maintenance isn't difficult.
    Nor is it particularly expensive, if you purchase the "right" car with sensible capped servicing
    Departed the Aussie Frogs Community 14 September 2018.

    The moderator/leader should not operate for the sole benefit of himself and his kind but for the benefit of the people at large and of the AF Fraternity and its patterns, as becomes what he perceives as fitting into place, into his sense of natural justice.
    with apologies to Judy Grahn

  25. #25
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    Dealer capped servicing is expensive and beyond most people's pockets. Running cars isn't cheap, and rego/insurance/fuel come first. A Sydney mortgage would help anyone understand what drives home servicing.

    A routine service usually takes under $100 in supplies and an hour or so in labour. I did one last week, and I'm an old [email protected]#. That included a general check over while the vehicle was on ramps, over and above a recent roadworthy hoisting

    I dropped in at the local recycling place recently, and you should have seen the binned 5L used oil containers, and this in a very high value area. DIY. Trade waste is not accepted.

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