The case for PSA to buy Holden, lock stock and barrel
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 3 123 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 56
Like Tree31Likes

Thread: The case for PSA to buy Holden, lock stock and barrel

  1. #1
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,559

    Default The case for PSA to buy Holden, lock stock and barrel

    For anyone who has read Micheal J Dunne's excellent book, 'American Wheels, Chinese Roads', you would know that General Motors is certainly not the company it once was. It is incredibly over invested in China, and if things go bad over there, they will fall over. It was solely China that saved them after 2009, allowing them to pay back the government loans and get back into the black. The old Chinese royals drove Buicks you see, before the revolution, so that nameplate was coveted by the Chinese. That's why Oldsmobile, Saturn inter alia were quietly euthanised, but that old behemoth (where the average US buyer had Alheimers and lived in a nursing home) survived. China is now centre court Wimbledon; the biggest car market in the world.

    GM has become very insular, recently selling off Opel to PSA, and quietly killing off its unloved Chevrolet branded Daewoo product in Europe to boot.

    Of course we all know that the new Commodore is the 2018 Opel Insignia, sourced from Europe. These factories, now owned by the French, will paste a Holden badge to the flanks of these vehicles and sell them through Holden's extensive dealership network here. Again, as we know, the next generation Commodore (say 2025) will be based on PSA architecture.

    This is where it gets interesting. GM has publicly stated that Holden is part of the GM family. Yet the bloodletting over recent years towards its brands wouldn't look out of place in the Game of Thrones. Holden is now an orphan, in a country that doesn't produce cars, with a parent who can't see past China and silly oversized trucks back at home. Mary Barra's attempt to make a Corolla, the unloved Cruze, has failed and cost a lot of money.

    So what are the pros and cons to both sides if PSA took over Holden, lock stock and barrel?

    The jewel is the dealership network,which spreads from big cities to smaller towns, nationwide. Of course, in the latter, Toyota is king, but still, people trust the Holden logo. PSA has a reasonable network, but many owners have to travel hundreds of kilometres to their dealer.

    Peugeots are well regarded by countryfolk, especially the diesels. And they share a lion...

    GM are divesting. If they pulled out of Europe, why do you think they would remain in the small backwater of Australia? It must annoy them that for the next seven years they will be paying PSA to make and supply vehicles that the former designed,manufactured in factories it built, and sold under a nameplate they own. If they sold Holden to PSA, they can walk away now.

    Advertisement


    PSA get considerable economies of scale with access to the new factories, especially for the next generation.If they can produce a car that the Holden fan boys can accept, it would be a major coup for the French.

    Discuss!

    Dave
    Last edited by 68 404; 29th October 2017 at 01:17 PM. Reason: spacebar!
    lozenge, jaahn, antonio and 2 others like this.
    2009 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi wagon
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! lozenge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Castlemaine
    Posts
    434

    Default

    well done, interesting thinking leading to a pleasing possibility.
    if only you were the Minister for Manufacturing in the federal government...

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Queensland
    Posts
    59

    Default

    If only we HAD a Minister for Manufacturing in the Government!
    jaahn, bigkev414, lozenge and 3 others like this.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    GEORGETOWN SA
    Posts
    2,144

    Default

    spacebar?

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    3,718

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller View Post
    spacebar?
    He was typing so furiously, he under hit it.

    The sentiment in the post makes sense though.
    KB


  6. #6
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    15,894

    Default

    With respect it's a decision for PSA.

    And some of factors to consider possibly are:

    1) Is the plant state of the art and able to integrated to psa current systems?

    2) Is the location geographically well located to sell/ship products?

    3) Is there a local demand for the products?

    4) Are the raw materials for car production located nearby and are the suppliers of components/ assemblies able to ship on a short lead time?

    5) Is an economical source of labour available ?

    6) Are energy costs competitive with other locations?

    It's a nice notion, but, sadly I can't too many "yes"answers to the questions.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  7. #7
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    With respect it's a decision for PSA.

    And some of factors to consider possibly are:

    1) Is the plant state of the art and able to integrated to psa current systems?

    2) Is the location geographically well located to sell/ship products?

    3) Is there a local demand for the products?

    4) Are the raw materials for car production located nearby and are the suppliers of components/ assemblies able to ship on a short lead time?

    5) Is an economical source of labour available ?

    6) Are energy costs competitive with other locations?

    It's a nice notion, but, sadly I can't too many "yes"answers to the questions.
    Huh?
    They already own the plants. That's a done deal.

    Dave
    2009 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi wagon
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  8. #8
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    15,894

    Default

    Well that is a revelation for me.

    PSA already owns GMH Australian plant ?????????????
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  9. #9
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Well that is a revelation for me.

    PSA already owns GMH Australian plant ?????????????
    Nowhere in my spacebar-free post did I mention that PSA should open up the Holden manufacturing plant...

    I was talking about buying the brand/business

    Dave
    2009 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi wagon
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  10. #10
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    15,894

    Default

    However look at how you titled the thread

    I would have thought "lock, stock and barrel" would imply the purchase of the entire sales, manufacturing, marketing and engineering divisions of GMH.

    Ie the complete "brand and everything that goes with it".
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  11. #11
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,559

    Default

    Tomato, tomato..

    Point taken.

    Dave
    2009 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi wagon
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  12. #12
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    15,894

    Default

    It seems to me that erasers are still needed on the end of pencils

    However in this case editing is not possible.

    EDIT:

    Back to the question Why would a international company wish or need to purchase a brand which is largely only known in Australia and NZ ?

    And in real terms sell very few vehicles of their own build.

    PSA have a slice of the action though Opel anyway.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    hampton victoria australia
    Posts
    432

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by broomy View Post
    If only we HAD a Minister for Manufacturing in the Government!

    If only we had a government

    Andrew

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    7,523

    Default

    I am not sure I understand what would PSA buy?

    The Holden name?

    See Rob's point above.

    Beside all the points he has made, I would add that foreign companies don't come here (or anywhere) to do you a favour. They come to make money. That means more money going overseas with little benefit (if any) to us. Yeah, sure, we'd have cheap Peugeots (whatever that may be these days), but would that be such a benefit in itself? Because if that was it, I would not think much of it. If it would also contribute to more competition and would help bring prices for cars in general down, yes, but I doubt.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 30th October 2017 at 05:43 AM.
    jaahn likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #15
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    North Parramatta
    Posts
    3,768

    Default

    I can't see why PSA would want the Holden name or the dealer network.

    I haven't missed anything, have I?
    Regards,

    Simon

    2014 208 GTi 2011 DS3 DSport
    ----
    2007 207 GTi 2004 206 GTi180 2000 206 GTi 1995 306 XT

    www.peugeotclub.asn.au

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Only19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    636

    Icon7 Death of Holden more likely

    My t'uppence worth: its a pretty safe bet that GMH won't be rebadging/importing a rival manufacturer's cars after the agreement for the current batch of GM designed Opel vehicles expires and PSA move to having Opel build on PSA platforms. They would stick to the GM world for inspiration/profit.

    Given GMH would then only have Chinese or US market designed product to sell: I suspect Australian's will abandon GMH in droves as, in part, it was the Euro influenced vehicles (Opel & Vauxhall) that seemed to attract their buyers.

    Consequence: Holden name is a 'dead man walking'.

    Opening for PSA is to sell Vauxhalls here after demise of Holden, or buy Holden name now to sell Vauxhalls as Holdens since they will be Opels made for RHD. (Everything old is new again: think HB Torana ).

    Looked at that way - might be a good fit for PSA to buy Holden name now while it still has cache in Oz.

    Cheers
    Bryce
    Who needs brakes? They only slow you down ....

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Only19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    636

    Default Seems OzFrog site likes the concept 'death of holden'

    P.S. I didn't put the smiley face next to my above reply title - however the site software seemed to like the idea so much that it added it when I posted!!??
    Armidillo likes this.
    Who needs brakes? They only slow you down ....

  18. #18
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,559

    Default

    Australians are pretty dumb.
    I remember in the mid 80s when I worked at Benjamins Building Company at Chatswood (yes the original BBC hardware and ultimately, one of the parts that make up Bunnings these days) an older staff colleague was telling me that he had just bought a new Holden Astra. I told him it was just a Nissan Pulsar in drag and he totally negatived my argument, saying he would never buy a Japanese car.

    People are blinded by the badge. How many Commodore owners bought their wives a Daewoo, sorry, Holden Cruze? They couldn't see past the Holden badge to fully appreciate the poorly engineered platform that it was, not to mention the easily scratched trim plastics. Nope, it is proudly built in Elizabeth mate, so it's dinky di Australian. The concept of CKD doesn't occur to them...

    So, would people buy more Pugs if a Holden badge was glued to the bum? And you could buy them from your local dealer in Coonabarabran, Traralgon, Roma, or Port Pirie? They could hedge their bets by selling other variants to distinguish them from existing Pugs? Or even stop selling the Pug nameplate in Australia (God forbid!) and making them all Holdens...

    I think this last is not as ludicrous as it seems. If people wouldn't even look at a Pug as a buying option ("you're buying trouble") but swear blindly to the Holden marque, perhaps a Holden Commodore (508) or a Holden Torana (308) may be the solution?

    Buy the badge, inherit the loyalty. At the end of the day, it's sales that PSA wants. If it has a different badge on the back in Australia, why would they care?

    Dave
    antonio and jaahn like this.
    2009 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi wagon
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  19. #19
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Armidale
    Posts
    1,722

    Default

    It's depressing, but you are clearly correct about a lot of 'Australian' car buyers. However at least the Opel or Nissan or Daewoo was rebadged as a GM-Holden - are you sure people wouldn't notice the change to PSA-Holden?

    And the Holden Rodeo/Colorado? VW seems to have built a decent ute, but could PSA/Opel/Vauxhall?

    Cheers

    Alec
    Last edited by Armidillo; 30th October 2017 at 10:37 PM.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! N5GTi6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    929

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Australians are pretty dumb.
    I remember in the mid 80s when I worked at Benjamins Building Company at Chatswood (yes the original BBC hardware and ultimately, one of the parts that make up Bunnings these days) an older staff colleague was telling me that he had just bought a new Holden Astra. I told him it was just a Nissan Pulsar in drag and he totally negatived my argument, saying he would never buy a Japanese car.

    People are blinded by the badge. How many Commodore owners bought their wives a Daewoo, sorry, Holden Cruze? They couldn't see past the Holden badge to fully appreciate the poorly engineered platform that it was, not to mention the easily scratched trim plastics. Nope, it is proudly built in Elizabeth mate, so it's dinky di Australian. The concept of CKD doesn't occur to them...

    So, would people buy more Pugs if a Holden badge was glued to the bum? And you could buy them from your local dealer in Coonabarabran, Traralgon, Roma, or Port Pirie? They could hedge their bets by selling other variants to distinguish them from existing Pugs? Or even stop selling the Pug nameplate in Australia (God forbid!) and making them all Holdens...

    I think this last is not as ludicrous as it seems. If people wouldn't even look at a Pug as a buying option ("you're buying trouble") but swear blindly to the Holden marque, perhaps a Holden Commodore (508) or a Holden Torana (308) may be the solution?

    Buy the badge, inherit the loyalty. At the end of the day, it's sales that PSA wants. If it has a different badge on the back in Australia, why would they care?

    Dave
    Another interesting point - Bunnings bought all the BBC sites - but didn't keep the BBC name. At the time I thought that a huge mistake as I thought the BBC name had huge cache, but as it turns out the BBC name meant very little.

    Did people (according to surveys) really want a rear wheel driven six cylinder - that made Holden/Ford keep manufacturing and developing them for so long - , or did they want 'Aussie' product - no matter where it was actually made ?

    Certainly I know people who will only buy Holden/Ford product as above, and after buying this product for many decades have only just discovered the packaging benefits of a front wheel drive hatch design - and even then only at the insistence of offspring with very little per-conceived ideas of what constitutes the ideal car.

    It truly astounds me how blind people really are.

    Cheers

    Justin
    '07 Megane R26
    '07 C3 Exclusive
    '09 308 XSE Touring
    '10 308 Sportium Touring

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    16,293

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by N5GTi6 View Post
    It truly astounds me how blind people really are.

    Cheers

    Justin
    Or Fickle....
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  22. #22
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by N5GTi6 View Post
    Another interesting point - Bunnings bought all the BBC sites - but didn't keep the BBC name. At the time I thought that a huge mistake as I thought the BBC name had huge cache, but as it turns out the BBC name meant very little.

    Justin
    Wesfarmers (Bunnings) bought out Howard Smith (BBC/Hardware House).

    Game over...

    Dave
    Last edited by 68 404; 30th October 2017 at 11:12 PM.
    2009 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi wagon
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  23. #23
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    7,523

    Default

    I doubt people would have bought more holdens/fords than other cars new were it not for the fleet buyers who got special deals, the government buyers and the salary sacrifice lease options, which had such restrictive conditions, basically only ford and holden fit in the slot. I think this hunch is supported by the dismal sales of Holdens and fords of late (if we look at the large cars, not the mondeos and other imported models).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! N5GTi6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    929

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I doubt people would have bought more holdens/fords than other cars new were it not for the fleet buyers who got special deals, the government buyers and the salary sacrifice lease options, which had such restrictive conditions, basically only ford and holden fit in the slot. I think this hunch is supported by the dismal sales of Holdens and fords of late (if we look at the large cars, not the mondeos and other imported models).
    I've been salary sacrificing the purchase of Pugs and Reno's since the mid 90's - never an issue. Maybe my type is to blame for the downfall ?

    Cheers

    Justin
    jaahn likes this.
    '07 Megane R26
    '07 C3 Exclusive
    '09 308 XSE Touring
    '10 308 Sportium Touring

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    7,523

    Default

    I have heard similar reports, and encouraged by these, we looked at salary sacrificing to buy a Renault when the 225 Megane came out, but I found the conditions were very unpleasant as soon as you strayed from the main manufacturers (Holden/Ford/Toyota) and locally produced models (and I wasn't interested in any type of Camry).

    You need to read the fine print.

    Also, you were tied to whoever was around to service the car, so we would have ended up with the only Renault dealer at the time in WA, not a pleasant place to deal with. These are all factors that impact what people buy.

    We had to give up buying a car we really liked. An absurd situation like I have never seen. A seller who doesn't care to sell their product. My conclusion was that they have some other ways to maximise profits other than just selling cars but I don't have the time to investigate nor do I care if they don't want to sell their cars and we moved on.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

Page 1 of 3 123 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •