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Thread: The case for PSA to buy Holden, lock stock and barrel

  1. #26
    Fellow Frogger! N5GTi6's Avatar
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    I've use both Macmillan Shakespeare and Leaseplan to salary sacrifice novated lease through and never had an issue. I've leased both new and second hand vehicles. Choice of any vehicle within the dollar range. Choice of servicing and tyres - and even fuel cards, although I always went with BP. For a while one vehicle had fuel cards for 3 different chains at the same time.

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  2. #27
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    It's depressing, but you are clearly correct about a lot of 'Australian' car buyers. However at least the Opel or Nissan or Daewoo was rebadged as a GM-Holden - are you sure people wouldn't notice the change to PSA-Holden?

    And the Holden Rodeo/Colorado? VW seems to have built a decent ute, but could PSA/Opel/Vauxhall?

    Cheers

    Alec
    I'm sure Isuzu would be only too pleased to supply PSA with a version of the Rodeo/Colorado/D-Max.

    Whereas Renault has access to twin cab utes through its Nissan and Mitsubishi connections, PSA doesn't.

    Dave
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  3. #28
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    My guess is that PSA has a permanent 'link' with GM through its long term platform sharing with Opel going back to the 1970s.
    The pie has now been realigned along the atlantic!
    Maybe holden gets to be a bit player in that 'network' for the pacific.


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  4. #29
    JBN
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    Look at the vehicles that people are throwing their money at:

    For blokes - utes (the bigger the better it seems)
    For women with kids - SUVs
    For poor people - Korean
    For rich people - expensive German
    For silly rich people - expensive German with either an M badge or AMG badge so they can skite but still drive as slow as normal rich
    For astute people - Toyota because they are well priced, reliable and have hybrids
    For the romantic dreamers - French, bought with the same lovers belief that this is the best and only one for me. A love affair that will last the test of time. When the affair is on the rocks - there is always Aussie Frogs who provide a free counselling service for jilted lovers.

    We are not really a country of lovers, so I would suggest PSA remain at arms length.

    John
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  5. #30
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antonio View Post
    My guess is that PSA has a permanent 'link' with GM through its long term platform sharing with Opel going back to the 1970s.
    What vehicles were shared in the 1970s & 80s?

    Dave
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  6. #31
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    A bit ambiguous. I think it means "GM's link with Opel" and not "PSA's link with Opel".

    The GM-Opel link needs no introduction. Kadett/Gemini, Ascona/Camira, Rekord/Commondore, not to mention Astras and Vectras.

    Hopefully PSA will purloin some of the AWD systems and start making some decent drive trains.
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  7. #32
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    GM, Opel, Vauxhall and Daewoo are in effect the same company. Like Holden was. Our Holdens were beefed up Opels/Vauxhalls. Had they been badged Peugeot for the last five decades, who knows how things would have turned out?
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  8. #33
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    It doesn't take too long for people to take up "new" brands, Hyundai and Kia have made good progress in Oz, particularly after they improved their products. I dunno that the "Holden" badge would be needed over the next few years if good new (and competitive) products hit the market and were funnelled through the GM/H network. If PSA were able to supply cars that *made sense* in the current market (and don't ask me why SUVs rule...) then the market would probably look favourably towards new products. To a point, the younger buyers probably have already lost brand loyalty to Holden (and/or Ford, for that matter). A bit of good design, a decent warranty, and seductive advertising campaign would work. As we agree, badge engineering isn't new. I'd be a bit more warm and fuzzy if PSA came up with innovative and competitive new cars, whether or not via the GM/H pipeline.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

  9. #34
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    It doesn't take too long for people to take up "new" brands, Hyundai and Kia have made good progress in Oz, particularly after they improved their products. I dunno that the "Holden" badge would be needed over the next few years if good new (and competitive) products hit the market and were funnelled through the GM/H network. If PSA were able to supply cars that *made sense* in the current market (and don't ask me why SUVs rule...) then the market would probably look favourably towards new products. To a point, the younger buyers probably have already lost brand loyalty to Holden (and/or Ford, for that matter). A bit of good design, a decent warranty, and seductive advertising campaign would work. As we agree, badge engineering isn't new. I'd be a bit more warm and fuzzy if PSA came up with innovative and competitive new cars, whether or not via the GM/H pipeline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    What vehicles were shared in the 1970s & 80s?

    Dave
    hopefully this will quote as i hope...

    there are clear links between xantia, 406, vectra and nubira. mainly around cabin and window frames.

    similar for other models including XM.

    one australian example that's easier to find on the street is where the euro astra shares door frames with 307.

    shockingly i would put money on VB-VL commodore and 505 sharing windscreen and at least the a and b pillars.

    how that translates in terms of business links is a guess but it seems that they've been friends for a while.

    maybe PSA's strength is in having several friends.


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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by antonio View Post
    hopefully this will quote as i hope...

    there are clear links between xantia, 406, vectra and nubira. mainly around cabin and window frames.

    similar for other models including XM.

    one australian example that's easier to find on the street is where the euro astra shares door frames with 307.

    shockingly i would put money on VB-VL commodore and 505 sharing windscreen and at least the a and b pillars.

    how that translates in terms of business links is a guess but it seems that they've been friends for a while.

    maybe PSA's strength is in having several friends.


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    Pretty tenuous links, Antonio

    Personally, I'd be looking for a shared vehicle platform or shared manufacturing facility before linking two manufacturers.
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  12. #37
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    I was just thinking this the other day when searching for windscreen wiper blades (*).

    To a point, it would be quite good for consumers to have cars that shared a heap of common parts (but as "they" make money on spares, it would be counter-profitable). For most cars, it would be a Good Thing, albeit the innovators might be stymied in design innovation(s).

    (*) Needed wiper blades for the C5. Bought a set at SuperCheap (not!) for $50 a pair (on special, the standard ones are something like $40 each = $80 for two). Didn't fit, took them back and was told I'd need the $80 pair. So I did more web homework and ended up with the Braumach from Melbourne @$21.45 a pair posted.

    Looking for rear wiper blade .. same thing, very expensive locally, ended up on eBay with $9.50 posted from UK (and every seller only does the whole blade, no-one, it seems, sells the rubber separately).

    Quite an exercise. And the quantum....of just "wiper blades" as a spare part is really crazy. Let alone the process.
    Kenfuego likes this.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

  13. #38
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    To a point, it would be quite good for consumers to have cars that shared a heap of common parts (but as "they" make money on spares, it would be counter-profitable). For most cars, it would be a Good Thing
    Think back to early 80's . It was known as the (John) Button plan.

    It never happened because of the potential of selling proprietary spare parts at a high price.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_car_plan
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Think back to early 80's . It was known as the (John) Button plan.

    It never happened because of the potential of selling proprietary spare parts at a high price.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_car_plan
    Yup.
    "It is said" that the car companies make little profit on the new car sales, but do so on service and parts.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

  15. #40
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Nothing has changed in the 40 odd years after the "button plan" has it ?
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  16. #41
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    I remember that in 2000, there was "going to be" a massive shift in corporate thinking away from profits and plunder to social and environmental responsibility. Some big firms (UK?) even made public statements to this effect. Um....
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

  17. #42
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    Ah perhaps back to the UBCO days when the only difference between the cost of an Ubco expensive SKF bearing and the cheaper than cheap was the packing that held the "different" bearings. Not even dot graded for tolerance like the early bearings, but some want to pay for the superior name/box product. Marketing meets brand snobbery?

  18. #43
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    On a par with Politicians taking a salary reductions.

    Won't happen.
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  19. #44
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antonio View Post
    hopefully this will quote as i hope...

    there are clear links between xantia, 406, vectra and nubira. mainly around cabin and window frames.

    similar for other models including XM.

    one australian example that's easier to find on the street is where the euro astra shares door frames with 307.

    shockingly i would put money on VB-VL commodore and 505 sharing windscreen and at least the a and b pillars.

    how that translates in terms of business links is a guess but it seems that they've been friends for a while.

    maybe PSA's strength is in having several friends.


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    Ok, I claim bullshit

    Dave
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Ok, I claim bullshit

    Dave
    i am saying links not copies. to be viable car companies work together while remaining as independent as they can. over stretch and you're toast. lose government support and you're toast.

    PSA we're almost toast until GM 'saved' them (2012?) and now they somehow 'own' Opel. seems miraculous to me.

    PSA has a long relationship with GM/Opel. longer than with ford.



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    A few years ago Holden were looking at importing Vauxhall vans which were re-badged Renault Traffic,s and calling them Holden,s
    It would have been interesting and sold more of them than Renault and replaced a few ute,s maybe.
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    Taking a look from another angle, Australia is now GM's largest Right Hand Drive market in the world!

    This is what's happened in the last 2-3 years for GM in other major RHD markets ...

    The UK - (Vauxhall) - Sold it's operations to the PSA Group, along with Opel, effectively pulling out of the market altogether after also axing Chevrolet from the market.
    The UK - (Chevrolet) - Pulled out of the market, along with Europe. Though some Chevrolet products can still be bought in some Eastern European markets, which are usually rehashed ex-Daewoo products.
    Japan - (Chevrolet) - Has pulled out of that market, though you can still buy some LHD Camaros and Corvettes, if they want to.
    India - (Chevrolet) - Has also pulled out of that market, but will keep one of it's plants open to export cars to developing markets.
    Thailand - (Chevrolet) - Is scalling back it's operations and will only build Ute's in that market, will stop production of the Aveo/Sonic (Holden Barina) and the Cruze. Sales continue to decline.
    Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong - (Chevrolet) - Sales are so tiny, they're not worth mentioning!
    New Zealand - (Holden) - Sales were down 28% for the month of October and are down a similar figure year to date. The Colorado Ute is their only significant seller.
    South Africa - (Chevrolet) - Has also pulled out of that market, sold it's plant and dealer network to Isuzu and PSA will now re-launch Opel there.

    South Korea - (Chevrolet) - ( I know it's a LHD market) If you believe one of their major English newspapers, GM is also looking at existing that market too, as GM South Korea hasn't made a profit in 3 years.

    Now, if the situation in South Korea becomes a reality, where would that leave Holden?? And why would GM want to keep Holden, now that they've basically given up on all other major RHD markets? I cant see GM in the US producing RHD vehicles just for the Australian and New Zealand markets, unless they move everything to China and they take control of all RHD production for all their models.

    The new Holden (Chevrolet) Equinox is being built for Australia, along with the Holden (GMC) Acadia SUV's, but for how long? Apparently Australia and maybe New Zealand will be the only RHD markets for the Holden Acadia.

    Why Holden wasn't included in the sale to the PSA Group in the first place with Opel and Vauxhall, is mind boggling!
    Last edited by iLaguna; 4th November 2017 at 01:05 PM.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by iLaguna View Post
    Why Holden wasn't included in the sale to the PSA Group in the first place with Opel and Vauxhall, is mind boggling!
    I think your take on the situation in your post preceding your last line statement basically answers the question for you. Trying to flog a Pug as a Holden or vice versa probably wasn't worth the time or effort for a minuscule RHD market.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  24. #49
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    I think it is only a matter of time before Holden is sold to PSA for $AUD1.
    GM just had to stay nice for the shut down of the factory and to sell existing stock. After that, I think they will be off like a bride's nightie.

    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    . After that, I think they will be off like a bride's nightie.

    Dave
    I'd like to see that

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