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  1. #26
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    I agree it's possible, but as you pointed out further up, we're too beholden to the "free market" to allow a government to provide free charging, no matter the long term benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    My point was that with current off the shelf technology, we could have those stations tomorrow and there would be no cost to have them if we factor in how much it would reduce emissions plus long term benefits in changing public perceptions, attitudes and motoring habits. I expect one of the more progressive state governments on the eastern coast will have such stations built at some point. Yes, you're not going to power road trains with that, but then again, did anyone try that?


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    Nothing's free. Someone pays.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I wouldn't worry about service stations. They will provide whatever roadside service transportation requires as it changes.

    One of my great grandfathers had a large property devoted to fodder and had a setup to prepare the stuff for market on a fairly large scale. a couple af large waggons distributed it. Were he alive today we'd say he runs a country fuel depot. People adapt.

    Yes and no.

    Or better put, some do, some don't.

    What makes me afraid is that we are too used to rush and ask the govt to not allow this, that or the other because we'll be out of a job (usually reaming a captive market - the only type of market where we have successfully run business and usually by reaming it).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Or imagine how much would it really cost to have some FREE charging stations along the nullarbor powered by solar panels? Too far to think for us, eh?

    Or are we worried the poor petrol station owners along the nullarbor wouldn't be able to make a living?
    I think you're stuck in a rut, Schlitzy! The whole idea is to get off the oil industries coat-tails and into something less controlled by a cartel. Your idea of free charging stations anywhere is unlikely to curry favour with the landholders whose property is likely to contain said solar panel arrays. Government land would be ideal but most of that is now National Parks who are never in favour of visitation by the greater unwashed vehicle driving public, electrically powered or not, preferring to only give access to people that have the ability to live on steam and hike a couple of hundred kilometres at the same time.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  5. #30
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    When I go bush, I prefer that there are NO service stations, towns or habitation in general, otherwise, what is the point of going bush? Electric cars make sense in urban areas, but not at this stage for the long distances found in Australia. As for the Toyota Prius, you wouldn't seriously travel the bush roads in that. The batteries make the car too heavy and it will break on the rough roads. Rough roads do that to its larger 4X4 petrol/diesel powered cousins.

    I am glad that I was profligate in my youth and travelled overland from Kathmandu to London as well as Morocco via the Sahara and Congo to eastern southern Africa. What is the point of leaving a versatile, compact, liquid, easily transported source of energy in the ground?

    With most new ideas, don't always treat them as a religion. There are horses for courses and a wise person should be able to ascertain this. The baying mob will always try to change our ways, but what percentage of them actually practice what they preach, or indeed do anything other than bray?

    We are led to believe that we are changing the climate and will be doomed. I wonder who caused the great ice ages in the past that really did change the climate?

    John

  6. #31
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    Ha. So you're saying private property ownership is getting in the way of progress? Hmmm. Let me think if I can come up with some idea to get around that.

    Ah, yes. Government initiative, how about that? Be it in the form of incentivising said land owners, forcing them, expropriating, buying them out, paying rent, whatever.

    That said, I don't think that's a problem. I am sure there's plenty of places where the government still owns the land and can do whatever they please along the Nullarbor.

    Here, in WA, I heard from locals that it is still a matter of contention the idea that Esperance would like to surface the road from Balladonia to Esperance to which the Kal shire responds that if they do that, then the Kal shire will surface the Cocklebiddy to Kal road. Everybody wants a piece of the action and because they can't agree, we pay more in fuel and go through Norseman (and you pay for anything that comes on a truck east or west). Either way we would win (by about 200km), but that ain't happening. Heck, I say build both roads and let people decide, after all the more roads the more options for the public.

    So yeah, I guess you are right.

    As you were.

    The country where nothing ever happens.

    Heck, I would trial solar powered single-car trains. Get on board in Adelaide, get off in Perth or the other way around. How fast do we reckon a two seat superleggera car on train tracks could blitz across the nullarbor on solar power (basically free of charge)? Something a la the recently remembered (on our very forum) Renault Jolly? Sit back, relax, enjoy the silence.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 25th October 2017 at 10:46 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Ha. So you're saying private property ownership is getting int he way of progress? Hmmm. Let me think if I can come up with some idea to get around that.

    Ah, yes. Government initiative, how about that? Be it in the form of incentivising said land owners, forcing them, expropriating, buying them out, paying rent, whatever.

    That said, I don't think that's a problem. I am sure there's plenty of places where the government still owns the land and can do whatever they please along the Nullarbor.

    Here, in WA, I heard from locals that it is still a matter of contention the idea that Esperance would like to surface the road from Balladonia to Esperance to which the Kal shire responds that if they do that, then the Kal shire will surface the Cocklebiddy to Kal road. Everybody wants a piece of the action and because they can't agree, we pay more in fuel and go through Norseman (and you pay for anything that comes on a truck east or west). Either way we would win (by about 200km), but that ain't happening. Heck, I say build both roads and let people decide, after all, the more roads, the more options for the public.

    So yeah, I guess you are right.

    As you were.

    The country where nothing ever happens.

    Heck, I would trial solar powered single-car trains. Get on board in Adelaide, get off in Perth or the other way around. How fast do we reckon a two seat superleggera car on train tracks could blitz across the nullarbor on solar power (basically free of charge)? Something a la the recently remembered (on our very forum) Renault Jolly? Sit back, relax, enjoy the silence.
    I can imagine the carnage when two cars find themselves in close proximity and travelling in opposite directions at warp (superleggera) speed......
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I can imagine the carnage when two cars find themselves in close proximity and travelling in opposite directions at warp (superleggera) speed......

    Hey, it's the price of progress.

    What do you think would stop anyone have passing lanes?

    You know the swiss have this little rail cable car that goes on the side of the mountain with two cars at opposite ends of the cable? One comes down and pulls the other one up and on and on. Both go on the same rail, so guess how they go past each other?

    I'll show you the answer if you can't figure it out.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  9. #34
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    There was never a lack of subsidies from us taxpayers for the car makers here in Australia. Unfortunately they weren't well targeted if that is anything to go by: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uFYW5tMoeg
    The figures posted by speaksgeek i heard on radio mentioned yesterday. They also mentioned what other natural resource digger uppers get in 'resource rents' as compared to us stupid bastards.
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    PSA has both Electric and Autonomous cars ready for production. The new 3008 has some of this technology and it will be fully available with electric drive available by 2019-21
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlRb65QrdTk
    https://www.groupe-psa.com/en/story/...ture-autonome/

    P.S. REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-i...cles_in_Norway
    Last edited by halfamill; 24th October 2017 at 01:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Hey, it's the price of progress.

    What do you think would stop anyone have passing lanes?

    You know the swiss have this little rail cable car that goes on the side of the mountain with two cars at opposite ends of the cable? One comes down and pulls the other one up and on and on. Both go on the same rail, so guess how they go past each other?

    I'll show you the answer if you can't figure it out.
    Whilst those cable cars travel at about 10 Km/h the thought of only being able to pass once between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie hardly fills me with excitement...............
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by speaksgeek View Post
    I agree it's possible, but as you pointed out further up, we're too beholden to the "free market" to allow a government to provide free charging, no matter the long term benefits.
    These ones will be free for a little while (12 months) Queensland electric car 'super highway' announced, with 18 fast charging locations - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Electric Vehicles Australia-free-charging.jpg

    NRMA setting some up in NSW Electric car charging stations power up in NSW with NRMA set to add 40 around the state - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

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    Well done NSW and Victoria, the only states where shit happens (or gets done).

    Well, after we put 30 billion dollars in the car industry only so overseas executives keep a handful of jobs here, I think a few quid for some free charging stations is small potatoes for a much more clear benefit to us (as in the people who actually live here) all.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Well done NSW and Victoria, the only states where shit happens (or gets done).

    Well, after we put 30 billion dollars in the car industry only so overseas executives keep a handful of jobs here, I think a few quid for some free charging stations is small potatoes for a much more clear benefit to us (as in the people who actually live here) all.
    With the demise of our car industry comes the demise of wealth. The number of people involved in motor industry and related component industries was enormous. All fully employed earners spending most of their dollars in Australia, even if some of their wages were paid by the taxpayer. I shudder to think what our political masters have in store for the poor old former employees. They could make electric cars, of course and maybe if some of the $30 billion had been directed to that end the outcome might have been more useful to Oz.
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    With the demise of the car industry and the demise of the NBN , there is an obvious choice to made at the next election.
    JohnW likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    With the demise of the car industry and the demise of the NBN , there is an obvious choice to made at the next election.
    We listened again the other day to the stupid and arrogant speech of the unlamented Joe Hockey daring GM to leave. I don't have the numbers to hand, but I think German subsidies for local production greatly exceeded Australia's. And we've had to pour in much more money in naval defence projects to SA than to car manufacture to shore up (forgive the pun) young Mr Pyne's seat.

    So vote for the party that might bring you a steam-driven, coal powered car. I'd better stop there....
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfamill View Post
    PSA has both Electric and Autonomous cars ready for production. The new 3008 has some of this technology and it will be fully available with electric drive available by 2019-21
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlRb65QrdTk
    https://www.groupe-psa.com/en/story/...ture-autonome/

    P.S. REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-i...cles_in_Norway
    https://group.renault.com/en/company...tric-vehicles/

    Without much of Australia noticing, Renault has 5 electric models in production, with the only-electric Zoe from 2012. A few years ago, France had more electric cars in use than any other country if I recall correctly but that has changed - around 30% of new cars in Norway are now electric.

    I think the Zoe is due here ere long with a range approaching 400 km. It's an interesting time.
    Last edited by JohnW; 24th October 2017 at 05:03 PM.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    We listened again the other day to the stupid and arrogant speech of the unlamented Joe Hockey daring GM to leave. I don't have the numbers to hand, but I think German subsidies for local production greatly exceeded Australia's. And we've had to pour in much more money in naval defence projects to SA than to car manufacture to shore up (forgive the pun) young Mr Pyne's seat.

    So vote for the party that might bring you a steam-driven, coal powered car. I'd better stop there....
    Ricky Muir has gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    With the demise of the car industry and the demise of the NBN , there is an obvious choice to made at the next election.
    Unfortunately, it's a clayton's choice . Someone remind me please, who was in government when Ford decided to quit?
    The NBN can be updated.
    Wasn't the original plan to make the NBN pay for itself as well??? Perhaps therein lays the problem (apart from having to borrow money to pay for current expenditure). The NBN should the best it can be technically with the thought of it being future proofed and creating wealth in the process.
    Has anybody heard of a business being denied having NBN to the premise?
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    Probably be seen before yet worth a mention


    All-Electric Peugeot 205 Was Ahead of Its Time

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    I understand that Amazon has invested into hydrogen battery technology, betting that this may be a better (cheaper, lighter) solution than lithium. I guess if the meter indicates the battery is low, attacking the battery with a match should get you further down the road.

    Just imagine Parliament House being powered by hydrogen batteries. Some bright spark dissolves both houses likkity split.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    With the demise of our car industry comes the demise of wealth. The number of people involved in motor industry and related component industries was enormous. All fully employed earners spending most of their dollars in Australia, even if some of their wages were paid by the taxpayer. I shudder to think what our political masters have in store for the poor old former employees. They could make electric cars, of course and maybe if some of the $30 billion had been directed to that end the outcome might have been more useful to Oz.
    I am speechless (so to speak - hehehehe).

    End of wealth for whom? Detroit?

    You do realise you're talking about a company that swallowed 30 bn in subsidies from you and I, right? And sent it to Detroit quick smart, right? To produce a few cars we had already paid for by the time we showed up at dealer's courts to buy them, right?

    But let's forget about that for a moment (if you can, 'cos I can't really).

    Let's look at the numbers. the productivity commission estimates that Holden has taken 30bn of our money over 10-ish years. That is 3 bn a year. Right? Right. For how many employees? I have no idea, so I'm going to pull a number out of my arse, let me know if you don't like it. Say 100000 employees? That means we paid 3bn for 100000 work places for ten years. That comes to about 30k per year per person, right? Tax free, 'cos it came from tax money, right? Not counting any money they made from selling said cars, right? Well, I would like someone to pay me 30k per year just because I breathe. Or at the very least, I would like to know that my money goes to support someone's workplace if they produce something I actually find worthy. Like say a dentist, or a doctor, or some poor student, or some researcher, or some other unfortunate who lost their job. You know, support someone that supports the society, or at least is likely to appreciate the support and be grateful for it, not someone that supports themselves and then makes off with our money.

    Sorry, but it looks to me like Holden has pissed on us for a long time claiming it's raining.

    The only thing worse than that is that there is an entire list of companies we are still subsidising to do the same thing. All the while, if you lose your job, you are sent to work for free for the salvation army because "we can't support you to do nothing, you have to contribute to society" as if the 40 years you spent working here count for naught. Well, of course it does, because the govt ate your money and they have no idea where it went (hint: have a look in Detroit, government).

    You are naive, but I would encourage you to mention one bit of wealth that was created by Holden in its entire existence.

    Somebody mentioned Germans and their subsidies. Yeap, maybe they do subsidise their companies. And protect them. And the Japanese likewise. But at least, when they line up the products in showrooms I know which i would rather buy, and nobody has bought me yet (wish they did, by the way).

    Australians don't understand there are subsidies and subsidies. Some are producing something worthwhile, others are just moving money from the poor to the rich. Australia is in the second category. That is why you can't afford a house and the germans do. Because their government subsidises industries that benefit the country whereas we subsidise industries that benefit some rich arsehole who shows up on TV and has the cheek to tell us that if we can't afford a house we should get a better job with better pay. At the peak of a recession brought about by government incompetence since federation.

    Look around you. You will see the signs everywhere you look. From the coffee shop in the glitzy street where they sell overpriced crappy coffee but complain about the little street vendor with their van whose coffee is cheaper and better and then go ask the council to remove his licence, " 'cos it shouldn't be allowed to make us competition" to the big multinational CEO who cries on TV that government "allows internet shopping that will ruin our economy".

    There was a documentary recently on the telly, made by ABC I think (or SBS) where former political figures discussed Australia of the seventies and economists explained how back then, it was enough to go to the prime minister and ask to raise tariffs for whatever it was you were producing in your company only because you weren't competitive against imports (and they were not coming from China, by the way), and the prime minister would raise it. All you had to do was name the figure.

    Sorry, old man. Australia has no idea what being competitive means. Until now it meant "Hand me a captive market on a silver platter and I will make a profit". Even then, some didn't manage to pull it off. Literally couldn't score a root in a brothel with all the whores bent over skirts over their heads. Pathetic.

    And I despise the guy mentioned above, but challenging Detroit was a good thing. Maybe inspired by stupidity, maybe he was drunk, who cares? It was long overdue.

    What is depressing is that good things only come from blunders around here, not consideration, intent and reason. You know, long term planning, the reason why the Germans subsidise their economy.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 24th October 2017 at 11:54 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Wow, Herr Schlitzaugen, some tirade! Let it all out and don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. There, there, feel better now?

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    No point arguing with someone who has built a fence around their mind, so I won't. I did spend rather a lot of my short working life in the vehicle manufacturing industry at the bottom to middle end of the pile, even made a few Renault's and Pugs. The productivity commission was formed to ensure the practice of making vehicles in Oz ceased ASAP, so their "estimates" are somewhat appropriately "coloured".
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    Denial is a hard to resist temptress, innit?

    Much easier to blame ze germans than look in your back yard and name things by their name.

    Have it any way you like. I don't like to pay to get screwed when I can get it for free.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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