ACCC report - Car Retailing
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    Default ACCC report - Car Retailing

    Some pertinent comments about dealers, warranty work, overpricing and restriction of information - https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files...t%20report.pdf

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    All topics discussed here often, but now the ACCC has taken some notice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Some pertinent comments about dealers, warranty work, overpricing and restriction of information - https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files...t%20report.pdf

    All topics discussed here often, but now the ACCC has taken some notice.
    Interesting to all motorists, and an opportunity as individuals to respond. My initial reaction was getting a better deal with recall information and prompt resolution, unlike the Takata impasse where drivers are using vehicles with serious problems. Also the question of technical information that used to be supplied in a car "factory manual" that was often given to owners at point of purchase as part of the deal - no longer done these days, when it should be cost effective to supply owners or their chosen repairer with a disc copy. With or without charge, and of course I would want that option available as part of the competitive deal in deciding to purchase their product. apart from that the american insistence of that information being readily available to owners without charge, is very attractive to consumers.

    Spare parts either need open competition with imported genuine parts as available in other countries at far more reasonable pricing especially where a bad batch of Factory parts figure in the early costs associated with their cars. Word of mouth, as present on sites like this are good but maybe needs some reinforcement.

    I will make a personal submission along those lines- it would help if others did also along with citing problems you have encountered.

    Thanks for the link Seasink

    Ken

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    Technical information withholding is seriously anti competitive.
    My mate used to work in Kyneton at an ex Mitsabits dealer and he had a lot of trouble getting information from Mitsubishi.

    I asked for a workshop manual CD at a VW dealer and was told that i could buy one from spare parts - $1500.-
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    I asked for a workshop manual CD at a VW dealer and was told that i could buy one from spare parts - $1500.-
    You can get the all VW information, at a reasonable fee. And it's customized to the VIN of the vehicle.

    CD are so past their use by date and never fully up to date.

    https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/showInfoTour.do

    And the first hour is free...

    Digital service schedule

    You can enter information in the erWin system for vehicles that have a digital service schedule. A printed service schedule is attached to the corresponding vehicles as well.
    You must be registered as a user in erWin in order to use the digital service schedule.
    The digital service schedule is initiated as soon as the vehicle is identified in the erWin workshop system.
    For vehicles that already have a digital service schedule, the “Digital service schedule” link is enabled in the “Systems” window panel.
    It is free to use this digital service schedule. Once you have successfully generated a service entry in the DSS, you will be granted a bonus of 1 hour for the flat rate. Please contact the support team and provide them with the relevant VIN
    .
    Last edited by robmac; 10th August 2017 at 04:05 PM.
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    I don't need it any longer anyway but it's great that things have changed for the better.
    At the time my daughter had 1.9D DSG VW with 40k on it but the engine fared when i went fast around a corner. Anyway, got my info for a transmission oil check from the US. Sure enough, the trans oil level was way out and it hasn't been touched since new. Checked with the service history at the dealers. As per book, they don't change the oil until 60k.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Technical information withholding is seriously anti competitive.
    My mate used to work in Kyneton at an ex Mitsabits dealer and he had a lot of trouble getting information from Mitsubishi.

    I asked for a workshop manual CD at a VW dealer and was told that i could buy one from spare parts - $1500.-
    Therefore, the information is NOT being withheld, it is freely available for $1500.00. The information is of value and has a cost. I suggest you were too mean to pay the going rate, preferring to go on-line and complain about it.

    Maybe you think the dealers get all this for free?
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    The repair trade has been screaming about withholding information for years. All our Diagboxes fell off a truck; mechanics can't get a legit copy. At one point PSA suppressed OBD readers with PSA specifics in their firmware - the usual misuse of copyright. We are losing repair shops, while dealers make the markups the report described.

    There is no reason why the whole of the Peugeot and Citroen service sites are not put on factory official DVDs (not Chinese under the counter copies) and sold for a few dollars only to cover the handling, or better, provided with each new car.
    Last edited by seasink; 10th August 2017 at 07:20 PM.
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    Come on Kim, $1500 is not "freely available"! The "incurred costs" to VW to provide a CD is peanut!

    John

    PS: Disappoint of your post by the way; so be it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Therefore, the information is NOT being withheld, it is freely available for $1500.00. The information is of value and has a cost. I suggest you were too mean to pay the going rate, preferring to go on-line and complain about it.

    Maybe you think the dealers get all this for free?
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    I don't rob people for a living and resent being robbed. You might operate differently.
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    Some of you obviously don't understand the logic behind proprietary knowledge. To keep the knowledge from competitors is important for manufacturers to prevent them losing control of their knowledge base. The Chinese have profited hugely from the uncontrolled release of proprietary knowledge. Why invent shit if everyone can copy it? Applies to everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    I don't rob people for a living and resent being robbed. You might operate differently.
    Why you think you are being robbed by a corporation that has invested billions into the product you have bought 24th hand just emphasises the cheap-arsed way that some car purchasers think.......
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    starting to sound like alex?
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    I think it's summed up by a simple phrase: "Intellectual Property"

    Alex wouldn't know what that meant.........
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    It would be hard to think of any other machine in the price range of a car that doesn't come with maintenance instructions. It's not about keeping secrets from the Chinese - they already own Citroen. It's about monopolistic behaviour to support dealers at the expense of owners and independent mechanics.

    It would be better if the software were open sourced also. VW would have saved a fortune.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Therefore, the information is NOT being withheld, it is freely available for $1500.00. The information is of value and has a cost. I suggest you were too mean to pay the going rate, preferring to go on-line and complain about it.

    Maybe you think the dealers get all this for free?
    I know one ex Renault dealer that baulked at being charged $30,000 for a software update and their other dealerships were offering their updates for far less than that, so for him it was an easy decision to revert to the other brand.

    I understand that in the USA it is illegal for cars to be sold without providing access to software Factory repair manuals, but many manufacturers reckon they must retain their trade secrets.

    Now the big thing (in the American Tractor industry) is that they are trying to protect their exclusive market by saying you only bought the right to drive the tractor, it is still theirs you do not actually own it!! Apparently that is being litigated in courts in the USA.

    Up until the last few cars I have owned I always asked for and got a Factory manual supplied as part of the deal and I hate having to find backdoor ways to get hold of such information, but then I guess I am a cheapskate too



    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    It would be hard to think of any other machine in the price range of a car that doesn't come with maintenance instructions. It's not about keeping secrets from the Chinese - they already own Citroen. It's about monopolistic behaviour to support dealers at the expense of owners and independent mechanics.

    It would be better if the software were open sourced also. VW would have saved a fortune.
    Having worked in the automotive sales arena for a couple of years, I can assure you that if 7% gross is all you make on selling a car, you will not only have starving salesmen, but shareholders too. You would not have any dealerships, showrooms or places to service the cars you have just sold at a lower premium than white goods. There must be an adjustment somewhere. In days past, spare parts would have made a tidy profit over the 10 to 20 years a car survived. These days they are ready for the scrap heap before they get to 10 years old.

    So where can a manufacturer make enough profit to sustain his production? We now commonly have five year absolute cover everything warranties. Some wanky manufacturers claim they have a seven year warranty. If you read the fine print it only covers the gear lever. Cars made in 2017 are generally very well built and will go five years without any attention apart from changing fluids, filters, brake pads, rotors, batteries etc, but they generally now only require a service once a year.

    What we see in JoBo's complaints and those of others are the distinct reluctance to pay the costs of owning a vehicle that they made a conscious decision to buy. As I was told many years ago about a brand named Rolls Royce was, if you have to ask how much it costs to run, you can't afford it!

    Quibble about information, service or whatever. Carry on about electronic diagnostics. The fact is, that without some form of income from the manufacture and global distribution of cars, their production will cease, so will the supply of spare parts and hopefully the moaning that we are constantly subjected to by a thoughtless few.
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    That argument fails to justify anti-competitive practices by makers, and particularly by dealers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    That argument fails to justify anti-competitive practices by makers, and particularly by dealers.
    I didn't read anything into either report other than car dealers make very little per unit sold, a bit more on spare parts and a lot more at service.

    What is anti-competitive about any of that? Cars are made to make money, they are not made to support some kind of charity consisting of people who can't really afford to own or run one. Anyone with half a brain can see the number of manufacturers that have gone by the wayside over the last 100 or so years. Do you think that may have been due to competition rather than the lack of it?
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    Hope you helped them out when you bought your Megane recently by not taking advantage of any discounts and paying full RRP.
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    Advertised price as on the Renault website: $36.590 on road.

    The same price you or anyone else could have bought one for.

    P.S: RRP is just that, a recommended price. There can be no obligation to charge it as the practice would be anti-competitive.....
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    It would be better if the software were open sourced also. VW would have saved a fortune.
    And doubtless there would be dozens versions of the ecu software freely available , all written by people who know better than the manufacturer.

    Just face the reality the commercial world isn't full of "generous benefactors" as in the open source world. And they don't want to make it easy for every computer "expert" to write alternative firmware for their products.

    And manufacturers ain't going to let competitors reverse engineer their code to gain commercial advantage.

    The real world works like this. And it's far removed for the open source world.
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    Hi,
    I took the trouble to call the mechanic I sometimes use and asked him about this withholding information thing.

    He reckons that he has four scan tools to cover pretty much all cars, and that those tools and the software updates come from the USA.
    He reckons that if it wasn't for those things and the USA laws, they wouldn't be able to repair cars, because the Australian branches of the car manufacturers flatly won't give out information.

    That is pretty bad for sure. Sounds like a simple job for the Federal Parliament, and pretty hard to see why it never did anything. All the more given that American law requires all that information to be given anyway.,

    Regards,
    John

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    If some manufacturers continue to sell cars and penalise us while ever we own them (with high service costs), the offerings of others might entice us to look elsewhere. Less complexity, easy updates etc.

    ACCC report - Car Retailing-tesla-updates.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    If some manufacturers continue to sell cars and penalise us while ever we own them (with high service costs), the offerings of others might entice us to look elsewhere. Less complexity, easy updates etc.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    At the price you are paying for Tesla they can afford to provide that kind of technology.

    And the general consensus these days is to try avoid a direct internet connection to the car ECU.

    And minefield legally if the ECU get hacked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Handley View Post
    Hi,
    I took the trouble to call the mechanic I sometimes use and asked him about this withholding information thing.

    He reckons that he has four scan tools to cover pretty much all cars, and that those tools and the software updates come from the USA.
    He reckons that if it wasn't for those things and the USA laws, they wouldn't be able to repair cars, because the Australian branches of the car manufacturers flatly won't give out information.

    That is pretty bad for sure. Sounds like a simple job for the Federal Parliament, and pretty hard to see why it never did anything. All the more given that American law requires all that information to be given anyway.,

    Regards,
    John
    EU laws also require manufacturers to make service data available to independent repairers. If these huge markets have done it without the sky falling in for the manufacturers then the Australian parliament can and should legislate something similar here. Without it there can be no independent servicing industry.
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