ACCC report - Car Retailing - Page 4
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Thread: ACCC report - Car Retailing

  1. #76
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Have a look where Qantas aircraft are currently being serviced and the skills may not be too different.

    Qantas' outsourcing of maintenance work overseas is affecting plane safety claims union | Daily Mail Online



    I rest my case.
    Claims are one thing, reality is another. I do not see QANTAS aircraft falling out of the sky because they are being maintained in a foreign country. They are being maintained in accordance with FAA regulations and their manufacturers' instructions by properly qualified personnel. Whilst it is disappointing to lose our maintenance jobs, your case is resting on unsafe ground!

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  2. #77
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    So your claim in post #73 that it is possible for Ultratune to service a Airbus 380 is untrue ?

    The more you the post the more you "bury" yourself in scenarios of total BS.

    At least continue the discussion with a little rational argument.

    EDIT:

    I think you missed a key element in the link I presented

    Six flights have been grounded due to technical difficulties in the last week
    Which to my mind supports the claim of unsatisfactory maintenance.
    Last edited by robmac; 28th August 2017 at 01:45 PM.
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    Why don't the two of you knock it off! Let the thread remain focussed on the ACCC and its actions concerning the relationship between owners and the car manufacturers and dealers.
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    It is an interesting thread! I haven’t managed to read more than a few pages of the ACCC report (165 pages) but have already submitted a response on my personal experience with car retailers to the ACCC website.
    Many new cars dealers are offering fixed price servicing which seem at face value, a way of avoiding the usual inflated high costs mentioned in the report. I guess maybe a fix price servicing may only address certain core annual maintenance requirements e.g. change the engine oil and some of the filters and not logbook servicing? Are these fix price servicings honest to the value quoted or do they introduce add on extras to gain a higher return to the dealer??? (Ref: ACCC Report Page 37 Box 2.6)
    I worked with a very highly respected aviation radial engine mechanic and he always said there were three sides to the vehicle/engine reliability triangle (1) First was the original proven design and tested build quality vehicle/engine supplied by the manufacturer. (2) Second was that the vehicle/engine was operated within the authorized design scope and envelope by the operator. (3) Thirdly the engine had to be maintained by trained competent staff with equivalent or authorized consumables and replacement parts to maintain the designed reliability levels and expected life or overhaul maintenance intervals projected by the design. It only takes one deviation to stop this OEM life of type design in its tracks!

    P.S. ACCC Report - Page 20, Box 1.2: Definition of a new carFor the purposes of this study, a new car is defined as a car purchased by an Australianconsumer, and which has not previously been registered.4 This definition includes passengervehicles, four wheel drive vehicles and vans.5While this study has focused on new cars, it has not considered: direct or parallel imports of new cars by individuals car financing and insurance products product safety6 demonstrator vehicles capped price servicing.7Chapter 7 of this report discusses issues outside the scope of this study further.
    Last edited by halfamill; 28th August 2017 at 05:14 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    Why don't the two of you knock it off! Let the thread remain focussed on the ACCC and its actions concerning the relationship between owners and the car manufacturers and dealers.
    A bloody good idea!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  6. #81
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    Agreed, and if "somebody" hadn't introduced the (totally irrelevant) topic of aircraft maintenance into the thread , then maybe it could have remained on topic

    Just to remind you who that "somebody" is :

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Some of you have no idea, really. Any of you own a regular GA aircraft? Do you think that just because you had a manual you would be allowed to work on it? No way. In this day of occupational health and safety, not to mention litigation, why should an owner think that they should be allowed to perform maintenance on critical parts of an automobile without (in most cases) any automotive qualifications whatsoever? It comes back to those who buy a vehicle and are not prepared to pay have it serviced by qualified servicemen, because either they know better or are too cheap. By avoiding the dealer service network, however, those owners also avoid having to confront service executives regarding shoddy work and dodgy work practices thus helping to perpetuate them.
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    I don't think we care. You are a grown up. Why lower yourself to Kim's levels? It feels like talking to my 6 year old son when he complains about other children - "If you don't respond then they won't do it".
    Last edited by Richard W; 28th August 2017 at 06:40 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    I don't think we care. You are a grown up. Why lower yourself to Kim's levels? It feels like talking to my 6 year old son when he complains about other children - "If you don't respond then they won't do it".
    Thank you for your gratuitous put-down. I had indicated that I was happy to let the matter rest, in spite of Robmacs' obdurate tendencies, and now I have another wanting to put a bet on after the race finished. If you yourself were grown-up you wouldn't have found it necessary to comment at this point.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Thank you for your gratuitous put-down. I had indicated that I was happy to let the matter rest, in spite of Robmacs' obdurate tendencies, and now I have another wanting to put a bet on after the race finished. If you yourself were grown-up you wouldn't have found it necessary to comment at this point.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Are you sure you are not a heavy emoticon using U.S. member of Aussiefrogs in a sock?
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    Ref: New Car Retailing Industry – a market study by the ACCCC, August 2017 ( I'm 80 pages now)
    Aerospace engineering is just a specialist discipline of Mechanical Engineering. Modern auto design is following trends in design, testing, certification and maintenance of the aerospace and IT developments and including ISO 9000/9001/9002 global standards. The modern car should be built to operate 200,000-300,000km with only safety inspections and minimal maintenance to design life of type. This is evident in the EURO 6.1 standards where a vehicle is to maintain reliable emission compliance to these approximate life of type figures. The assumption is that these vehicles will then be recycled as is some of the current BMW recycling programs in Europe. It is the way the modern automotive industry has evolved e.g. same as European Aerospace Industry (AirBus). I guess the PSA automotive engineers went to the same university in mechanical design and production. This concept of building a vehicle and then maintaining maintenance oversight and design control over it for programmed life of type is what is now shaping the “New Car Retailing Industry”. Original Equipment Manufacturers and their endorsed Sales outlets and maintenance agencies are positioning themselves for life of type business arrangements and as in the case of BMW recycling the expired product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfamill View Post
    Ref: The modern car should be built to operate 200,000-300,000km with only safety inspections and minimal maintenance to design life of type.
    There was a time when brake rotors would last nearly this long but their useful life appears to have been substantially reduced now?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    There was a time when brake rotors would last nearly this long but their useful life appears to have been substantially reduced now?
    Thanks to asbestos free friction material and softer brake disk/drum material in order to to optimize braking.

    Improvements that come with a longevity trade off.
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    There still seems to be a difference between some manufacturers when it comes to replacement of rotors Q&A: When should I change my brake rotors

    ACCC report - Car Retailing-brake-rotors.jpg

    Will be interested when Commodore is imported whether rotors will only last the life of the pads? Their owners might have to get used to forking out more in this area. It can get expensive and make fixed price servicing a bit academic

    ACCC report - Car Retailing-toureg.jpg

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    Brake rotors and Disc Pads are consumables. Interesting aftermarket Discs and pads last longer than the PSA originals but there is also a marked reduction in brake effect. (Therefore compromising the original performance goals of the OEM, but lower cost to the consumer!)
    Ref: New Car Retailing Industry – a market study by the ACCCC, August 2017 Draft Report Page 128 of 162, Box 6.3: Case study – Second ACCC review of manufacturer and importer fuel consumption communications
    The above reference highlights un-substantiated fuel consumption figure supplied by the manufacturers and used as an example. This particular example seems to be a current PSA product e.g. PSA BlueHdi Diesel, and 4.5 L/100Km is an very achievable figure for careful driver. I have achieved 4.8 L/100Km in a 307Hdi (2001) on a drive Sydney to Adelaide and regularly get 1000Km combined to a 60L tank, round town it gets down to 700Km but not with me driving. I normally drive to Brisbane without using tank. I guess it is all up to the drivers throttle position. Motoring journalists are probably the worst qualified critic in relation to many aspects of new vehicles. Drivers dictate fuel burn and get a bit carried away with burning it!
    P.S. Finished reading the report, great reading but needs more work by the ACCC and the industry. There are many opportunities to made life for independent maintainers better, come on PSA support the specialist independent French car specialists. Dealers only kick the tyres and change the oil and filters, sell spares. They don't have time to do the specialist work, so support to the independent French specialist shops who need it.
    Last edited by halfamill; 29th August 2017 at 04:23 PM.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Sounds excellent; was that for the 2.7 Diesel (similar to PSA one)? What did service entail?
    No, just the basic 4.0 petrol 2WD. That was the first 15k/12 month service (it was only on about 7000kms, but had the 15k service done because of time, and warranty cover). Did have oil and filter, probably not much else, but what else is there these days? And was told the satnav had been updated. In fact, I feel that is a high price for a basic service, compared to doing it myself, but I will wear it for the warranty period.

    Relevant to this thread I suppose, is that I chose the petrol over the diesel because I will end up servicing this myself, after the warranty period, and I am not comfortable with the potential for expensive diesel repairs long term, and I am not doing big kms. As a qualified mechanic, I feel that I can probably fix most things on this vehicle myself at low cost for say 10 years at least, including engine work. Hope the dashboard electronics are reliable, these things have been around for a while now.

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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    There still seems to be a difference between some manufacturers when it comes to replacement of rotors Q&A: When should I change my brake rotors

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Will be interested when Commodore is imported whether rotors will only last the life of the pads? Their owners might have to get used to forking out more in this area. It can get expensive and make fixed price servicing a bit academic

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Seems that the rotors wear out faster then the pads.
    I had the back rotors replaced on my Scenic about 10,000km back.
    They were actually okay at the time but the bearings were noisy and on the Scenic you can only change the bearings with the rotor.
    At the time the workshop said the rotors are usually replaced with the pads which I found astounding.
    Anyway, now after less than 20,000km (might only be 10,000), the rotors are showing significant wear and look like they're due for replacement again.
    These were allegedly genuine Renault supplied through a non-dealer specialist French workshop.
    Whatever they're making them out of now is crap.
    Being a consumable they're not covered by warranty (not that my car is still under warranty) so they're a good money spinner for the repairers. Once your car is in the shop there will no doubt be other 'minor' issues to attend to.

    On my Magna, the car had one set of rotors replaced in 300,000km, and that was at around 250,000km.
    This is a much heavier car with higher brake stress. I can't remember ever replacing disc rotors on any other care I've owned, including earlier Renaults. What were they doing right 10-20-30 years ago that they're not doing now, (Asbestos pads?).
    (Did replace the rotors on my daughter's Commodore but I didn't drive that. As I paid for the car maybe this would have to count).

    Cheers
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    Once I was the only operator of the brakes, now in modern cars; Mr. traction control, ABS, and down hill descent, yaw controls mainly work by applying individual brake units by computer are also wearing out your disc & pads.
    P.S. Ref: New 3008 Specs - Emergency braking system with video camera and radar, then there is auto braking as part of cruise control. Who's driving this car????
    Last edited by halfamill; 30th August 2017 at 08:30 PM.

  19. #94
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    he brake issue is not a matter for car retailing, but discs are made from grey cast iron to SAE spec J431. It's a standard. You can look up the properties here - http://www.laforo.com/pdf/Material_S...ons_Laforo.pdf. Pad friction materials have changed though. Old ones contained asbestos, now prohibited. Allowable wear limits have also been reduced.

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