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  1. #26
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    John all the mechanics are saying that. They can only operate because some company has used a foreign insistence on the availability of data. Here makers and distributors hide beind our outrageous "intellectual property" laws. BTW it isn't property - it's monopoly.

    Rob, I made a wish. I know how anally retentive most but not all companies are. It does no good for them, and works to preserve the fourth rate. I don't think you have ever seen, let alone maintained, engineer's code - I have.

    

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    At the price you are paying for Tesla they can afford to provide that kind of technology..
    With a price of about USD$35k for a Tesla 3, they are not outrageously priced compared to some of the European products we drive. In any case, I think that what most of us (and ACCC) would prefer is to pay a price commensurate with the real price of the car – no ‘sting in the tail’ to come later.

    If modern organisations such as Google, Apple, Tesla etc are giving us things such as free software updates and less ongoing costs, it will become difficult for others to sustain a business that sees updating of maps, coding of keys etc as a lucrative source of revenue. The real cost of delivering some of these services is about four fifths of nothing.

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    The part of the report that is really worth reading deals with the systematic attempts by manufacturers to bypass Australian consumer law in the event of faults, relying on the wording of warranties to bluff people out of their rights under this.

    Daughter is in the middle of a battle royal with VW about two identical and dangerous gearbox failures in her Golf. Their conduct has been utterly unconscionable - bullying, bluffing, denial, obfuscation and delay. Lately it has verged on the sadistic, as the pressure from our side mounts and as they recognise that they have a problem.

    Anybody buying a car needs to be very aware of rights under consumer law. They are not exactly made available by the manufacturers

    Report is an interesting read. Probably too late for us, but the battle continues

    Andrew

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    On the contrary I'd suggest it's an ideal time to insist on your rights to be upheld.

    A letter to the ACCA would be well timed too.
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    Default Acca

    Consumer affairs already involved

    Going to VCAT

    Working on the You Tube video, MiniSeries and Novel

    There is enough material in the story for all three.

    It is real trench warfare/house to house combat. Adolf would be proud of them. Would probably have won the war had they been playing for him at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    On the contrary I'd suggest it's an ideal time to insist on your rights to be upheld.

    A letter to the ACCA would be well timed too.
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  6. #31
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    I'm not disputing your claim.

    However that lack of people complaining about the transmissions in VAG manual vehicles on Australian VW, Audi, Skoda and Briskoda enthusiast forums is most surprising.

    A warranty fix requiring a repeat surely has to make you suspicious as well.

    If it's a design problem one would expect others to complaining as well.
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    I use Service Citroen for my parts and repair procedures information at a very reasonable 7 euros per hour. Any auto repair centre of any competence would be using it too I suggest. So I don't need a full service manual until the internet goes down or I fail to be deliver ed electricity to the house. Therein lies the bigger problem in our lives.

    I notice no-one is complaining about the relative cheapness of new cars these days, brought about by huge reduction in tariffs and the use of robots and computers. The Mi16 in the shed was $50k on the road in 1993 by way of example. It is an easy car to fix in comparison to say ecu failures contemporary vehicles. As Kim Luck reminds us, we have to pay somewhere for manufacturers to continue to survive to supply us with cheap cars. That of course doesn't help the poor sod whose gearbox falls to bits.

    I am sure that vehicle distributors are aware of the online shopping for parts fromEurope etc. In time the market will adjust to provide cheaper parts locally. The biggest problem is the huge proliferation of models (albeit with great commonality of parts) means that no distributor can profitably hold the required level of parts in Australia and they are sourced from Singapore/SE Asia or Europe (Yank tanks excepted).Things have certainly changed in the last 30 years since Senator Button had his way.
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    All the bullshit in this thread how many of you as a % pay for public service box or Citroen service or the genuine diagbox no you buy clones made in China and as a % I would say most of the lazy mechanics out there just do the old let's call the dealer at 8.30 in the morning for info (after buying parts from somewhere else ) and then whining when they are told the ta is to busy.


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    Default ACCC report - Car Retailing

    You can't have your cake and eat it 2


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    Last edited by dmccurtayne; 12th August 2017 at 06:00 AM.

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    I once bought two Rovers and a Land Rover a few years apart. Each came complete with multi-volume workshop manuals, wiring diagrams and a small collection of technical bulletins. The Land Rover had all the tools needed for maintenance, all of which was described in a service book. My daughter bought a Japanese car, whose dealer also supplied a manual, if asked for. She asked. There were two thick volumes.

    Today our cars are a PSA secret, and we have to pay (by the hour!) to sit on the service site, sometimes pretending to be professionals. If we want the software for cars that have become mobile computers we rely not on PSA dealers, but on Chinese who-cares-about-copyright funny copies. Certainly no service instructions or workshop manuals are provided, not even in nominally priced electronic formats.

    Independent mechanics chase up dealer favours because they are being kept in the dark too. They and the compilers of workshop data are p'd off, and the report reflects that.

    On dealer parts charging, mentioned in the report, I have a recent anecdote. A couple of months ago I was at a parts supplier I use, chatting to the boss, when a local mechanic came in. The talk turned to Japanese made clutches for a make with famously expensive dealer parts. The mechanic had been fitting clutches supplied by my mate for well under half the price of the dealer. The dealer parts manager heard and told a customer that he had an inferior clutch fitted who went back to the mechanic. Eventually all three met - the parts manager, the mechanic and the aftermarket supplier - to compare clutches. All carried the same stamps, trade marks and numbers. You guessed it, they were all made by the OEM supplier.

    That story has many variants, which is why so many PSA owners turn to suppliers abroad.
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    Some of you have no idea, really. Any of you own a regular GA aircraft? Do you think that just because you had a manual you would be allowed to work on it? No way. In this day of occupational health and safety, not to mention litigation, why should an owner think that they should be allowed to perform maintenance on critical parts of an automobile without (in most cases) any automotive qualifications whatsoever? It comes back to those who buy a vehicle and are not prepared to pay have it serviced by qualified servicemen, because either they know better or are too cheap. By avoiding the dealer service network, however, those owners also avoid having to confront service executives regarding shoddy work and dodgy work practices thus helping to perpetuate them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Some of you have no idea, really. Any of you own a regular GA aircraft? Do you think that just because you had a manual you would be allowed to work on it? No way. In this day of occupational health and safety, not to mention litigation, why should an owner think that they should be allowed to perform maintenance on critical parts of an automobile without (in most cases) any automotive qualifications whatsoever? It comes back to those who buy a vehicle and are not prepared to pay have it serviced by qualified servicemen, because either they know better or are too cheap. By avoiding the dealer service network, however, those owners also avoid having to confront service executives regarding shoddy work and dodgy work practices thus helping to perpetuate them.
    Come on mate that sounds like common sense you should take that post down


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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I once bought two Rovers and a Land Rover a few years apart. Each came complete with multi-volume workshop manuals, wiring diagrams and a small collection of technical bulletins. The Land Rover had all the tools needed for maintenance, all of which was described in a service book. My daughter bought a Japanese car, whose dealer also supplied a manual, if asked for. She asked. There were two thick volumes.

    Today our cars are a PSA secret, and we have to pay (by the hour!) to sit on the service site, sometimes pretending to be professionals. If we want the software for cars that have become mobile computers we rely not on PSA dealers, but on Chinese who-cares-about-copyright funny copies. Certainly no service instructions or workshop manuals are provided, not even in nominally priced electronic formats.

    Independent mechanics chase up dealer favours because they are being kept in the dark too. They and the compilers of workshop data are p'd off, and the report reflects that.

    On dealer parts charging, mentioned in the report, I have a recent anecdote. A couple of months ago I was at a parts supplier I use, chatting to the boss, when a local mechanic came in. The talk turned to Japanese made clutches for a make with famously expensive dealer parts. The mechanic had been fitting clutches supplied by my mate for well under half the price of the dealer. The dealer parts manager heard and told a customer that he had an inferior clutch fitted who went back to the mechanic. Eventually all three met - the parts manager, the mechanic and the aftermarket supplier - to compare clutches. All carried the same stamps, trade marks and numbers. You guessed it, they were all made by the OEM supplier.

    That story has many variants, which is why so many PSA owners turn to suppliers abroad.
    And you think dealers don't pay for the access to these things


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    Yachts might sink if maintained by sailors, too. Come to think of it, I repaired a ladder a while ago ; perhaps a Work Cover approved man should have done it and stamped it.

    I have maintained and rebuilt vehicle engines for over 60 years without a formal apprenticeship. I think I have learned a bit about it, and I have had people get me fix jobs mucked up by dealers, or should I say, unsupervised apprentices.

    The report isn't trying to ruin dealers at all. It recounts a range of problems that people are having with them. Dealers and manufacturers ought to take notice.

    I am aware that dealers are extorted for information by manufacturers. It has to stop.
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  15. #40
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    I hope that ladder and your use of it complies with all the regs, SS!

    Ladders - What are the Rules and Regulations? - OHS Reps
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I hope that ladder and your use of it complies with all the regs, SS!

    Ladders - What are the Rules and Regulations? - OHS Reps
    Ladder rules are entirely irrelevant when working at home.

    Commonsense and a 30 years odd of being molly coddled by OH &S generals on work sites has done it job.

    That is why my favorite 2 meter steps have a 3mm piece of aluminium sheet pop rivetted over the crack.

    And my favorite ladder is section cut from from one part of a SEC Oregon extension ladder, foolishly discarded by a SEC employee because one step was broken.

    The intention of self preservation, a dislike of waste and a Scot's upbringing overcomes the Nanny State attitude every time.
    Last edited by robmac; 12th August 2017 at 05:16 PM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Ladder rules are entirely irrelevant when working at home.

    Commonsense and a 30 years odd of being molly coddled by OH &S generals on work sites has done it job.

    That is why my favorite 2 meter steps have a 3mm piece of aluminium sheet pop rivetted over the crack.

    And my favorite ladder is section cut from from one part of a SEC Oregon extension ladder, foolishly discarded by a SEC employee because one step was broken.

    The intention of self preservation, a dislike of waste and a Scot's upbringing overcomes the Nanny State attitude every time.
    Your attitude to personal safety, i.e; a calculated risk, might eventually pose a problem for someone else. I have a righteous dread of being impacted from above by heroic, intrepid and fearless septuagenarians using faulty height equipment..........
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Your attitude to personal safety, i.e; a calculated risk, might eventually pose a problem for someone else. I have a righteous dread of being impacted from above by heroic, intrepid and fearless septuagenarians using faulty height equipment..........
    Well my advice and best intentions are that don't ever come near me.

    I consider myself quite capable or assessing safe practice and equipment after using ladders daily for many years.

    It's the occasional users that are real risk.
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  19. #44
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    Didn't take long to find people on Golf fora complaining about notchy engagement and baulking in second, which has been the issue for us ( then total refusal and ultimately jammed in gear with VW in Melbourne unable to crack the box) . Their comment was that dealer sez "it is a characteristic of the car ", at least so far as the notchy engagement.

    Your comment a while ago about the slave cylinder being hard to bleed may well be the answer, at least to why the same gear fails each time in the same way, second taking much of the load and being the gear on which most cars first lose synchro, although last time they put it down to "material failure" AND there is never any problem engaging any other gear, which rather goes against a clutch based explanation.

    VW has done 60,000k and had two major box failures. My 404 has >500,000 miles on it and has only at last restoraton had any work on the box ( rear selector seals modified). How often have you heard of a manual gearbox failing so quickly?

    They are pretty simple and tough devices. As Louis Renault said after inventing the gearbox: "C'est brutal, mais ça marche"

    Something clearly very wrong

    Other thing which makes me believe your explanation may be on the money is that they have had it in the shop for 7 weeks with no progress. Clearly not a well-run operation

    Off to VCAT this week. Good thing that her twin is a lawyer

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I'm not disputing your claim.

    However that lack of people complaining about the transmissions in VAG manual vehicles on Australian VW, Audi, Skoda and Briskoda enthusiast forums is most surprising.

    A warranty fix requiring a repeat surely has to make you suspicious as well.

    If it's a design problem one would expect others to complaining as well.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I hope that ladder and your use of it complies with all the regs, SS!

    Ladders - What are the Rules and Regulations? - OHS Reps
    You must be taking the piss...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    You must be taking the piss...
    Who? Me?
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    I've got no problem with dealers charging a fair rate for fair work.
    It's anti competitive to force people to use their services by them withholding information for a vehicle someone paid for (not leased!)

    I know an independent VW/Audi specialist and he told me that dealerships have one or two competent guys and the rest are just grease monkeys.
    This was when i visited him to look at his VW workshop manuals for the R19 auto transmission.
    The R19 also had an idling problem. Took the car to Billia in Camberwell (Renault dealer at the time). The had the car for a week and told me to take it away because they could not fix the fault. Charged me a bit over $300.- for the privilege; but got a refund after writing to the GM.
    Took it to the Blackburn dealer and they charged me 'only' $170 or so for diagnosing. I asked if i give them the car to fix, can they guarantee that it will be fixed - the manger told me no guarantee
    Finally took it to a mate near Kyneton and he diagnosed the problem within 20 minutes with a multimeter. Problem fixed, faulty alternator.
    Had a big problem with a Nissan dealer 'fixing' my clutch and gearbox on my 2000 Sport....

    Thank you very much dealers - i can stuff up my own car for nix.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Watkins View Post
    Didn't take long to find people on Golf fora complaining about notchy engagement and baulking in second, which has been the issue for us ( then total refusal and ultimately jammed in gear with VW in Melbourne unable to crack the box) . Their comment was that dealer sez "it is a characteristic of the car ", at least so far as the notchy engagement.

    Your comment a while ago about the slave cylinder being hard to bleed may well be the answer, at least to why the same gear fails each time in the same way, second taking much of the load and being the gear on which most cars first lose synchro, although last time they put it down to "material failure" AND there is never any problem engaging any other gear, which rather goes against a clutch based explanation.

    VW has done 60,000k and had two major box failures. My 404 has >500,000 miles on it and has only at last restoraton had any work on the box ( rear selector seals modified). How often have you heard of a manual gearbox failing so quickly?

    They are pretty simple and tough devices. As Louis Renault said after inventing the gearbox: "C'est brutal, mais ça marche"

    Something clearly very wrong

    Other thing which makes me believe your explanation may be on the money is that they have had it in the shop for 7 weeks with no progress. Clearly not a well-run operation

    Off to VCAT this week. Good thing that her twin is a lawyer

    Andrew
    Hope you told them of the professional representation in the directions hearing.

    And have a mechanically qualified person to support your arguments.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    I've got no problem with dealers charging a fair rate for fair work.
    It's anti competitive to force people to use their services by them withholding information for a vehicle someone paid for (not leased!).......
    Thank you very much dealers - i can stuff up my own car for nix.
    Back to my aircraft maintenance analogy. Unless you were a qualified LAME you could not work on your own Cessna, or that of anyone elses'. Why so? Isn't that anti competitive? Or is it just insisting that the influence of dickheads is entirely removed from the maintenance safety equation?

    Instead of whinging about poor service, why aren't people sticking it up the RACV et al and insisting car mechanics are properly qualified so that we can spend even more on keeping our vehicles going?
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    Dickheads are everywhere. Dealers and makers keeping info secret doesn't stop dickheadery. I can name a dealer near me whose workshop isn't fit for much at all. I have fixed their errors and corrected their misdiagnoses. At the other extreme are dealer shops like the one presided over by the "Greek god", Spiro, who'd get all my work if only I could afford the dealer prices.

    The aircraft analogy is overblown, and pushing it. I suspect many aircraft owners are p'd off too. I hope you don't change your own lightbulbs.

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