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    Default Petrol gone too!

    An electric future it seems - New diesel and petrol cars banned from UK roads by 2040, as Government unveils new pollution tax on drivers in busiest areas

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    Ah the taxing disease, appropriate that it comes out of the UK where if they didn't invent it, they refined it, one reason I love nostalgia, back in the days of my youth, most things were free and unregulated, no parking meters, and you could really live on the open roads after they got rid of that silly red flag Act in England.

    Next taxing the air we breath!

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Ah the taxing disease, appropriate that it comes out of the UK where if they didn't invent it, they refined it, one reason I love nostalgia, back in the days of my youth, most things were free and unregulated, no parking meters, and you could really live on the open roads after they got rid of that silly red flag Act in England.

    Next taxing the air we breath!
    Twenty three years time .

    I think it's smart to look to the future It's not as if you will forced to sell /dispose of your current vehicle tomorrow.

    The process is likely to be phase out of existing vehicles / phase in of new vehicles. And future at this time looks to be electric.

    I'd also suggest that few cars on the road today will still be , economically, on road in 23 years time.

    And it won't be you or me who benefits but rather future generations.

    Change is never easy for those set in their ways. So it's being presented as like it or lump it approach.

    As with the introduction of decimal currency.

    You can't stop future technology by holding on to the past.

    EDIT: And the mighty dollar is best way to encourage the change !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Next taxing the air we breath!
    Nawh, taxing farting will be next, tax on breathing will come later.
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    I have visions of farting meters along the kerb, and overzealous rangers.
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    Its all in the waft.

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    You saw this exclusive on Aussie Frogs.
    Look out for this one on CarSales tomorrow.

    Elon Musk releases the RS Type....Rock Solid

    Petrol gone too!-fred.jpg

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    Ken, I think the UK have had a pollution tax for years haven't they? That's why they talk of grams of CO2 per unit distance in the UK car magazines.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Ah the taxing disease, appropriate that it comes out of the UK where if they didn't invent it, they refined it, one reason I love nostalgia, back in the days of my youth, most things were free and unregulated, no parking meters, and you could really live on the open roads after they got rid of that silly red flag Act in England.

    Next taxing the air we breath!
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    I think this is just part of the effort of moving away from petrol and oil in general, not only a desire to protect the environment. It shows they are looking ahead and they have a long term plan that (I bet) also tries to get in on the electric tech early rather than wait and then import everything from those who already had developed it.

    Much more than we are doing here (and we'll complain later that we don't have technology, small market, expensive to import, etc, etc).
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    Icon11 Environmental anti pollution gear and those that remove it.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Ken, I think the UK have had a pollution tax for years haven't they? That's why they talk of grams of CO2 per unit distance in the UK car magazines.
    Probably correct Stuey, if it exists tax it, used to be the joke when we could poke fun at the Pom's and no one got offside. They have some weird taxes and for all that pollution correctness, the actual experience in car clubs and enthusiasts, is the first thing that is rendered useless/taken off is the pollution gear.

    My Fuego is one of the few that actually has all pollution gear intact and in working order, and I am no saint. I just think if it is made to work with that stuff, why not keep it operating correctly.

    Though I did insert one of those go faster swirl thingy's in the carburettor air intake that my daughter bought when she was well funded and sold to me for an inflated price?? when she was low on funds. Runs a bit better on low grade fuel with it, but likes 98 RON most of the time.

    I guess you don't have to be a green saint to a real environmentalist. I smile sometimes, some have short memories and we have all been around cars and clubs for a long time!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I think this is just part of the effort of moving away from petrol and oil in general, etc).
    Talking of moving away from oil, if that did happen on large enough scale and there was a substantial oil price fall, that would have the potential to bankrupt Russian economy and I cant see the Arab being happy with oil price fall either.
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    Icon5 The great Green diesel swindle....ah!

    Another link on the same lines, but with a bit of red team, blue team examination of the issues, science and background to all of this, still think myself that the all in nature of the above, makes it hard for Merkel to allow her auto manufacturers to ALL fail, perhaps she is being put into the proverbial cleft stick politically, if jobs get lost and the economy shudders.. anyway, lots of interesting snippets coming up in the comments already.


    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/...iesel-swindle/
    \
    did this Diesel fuel promotion actually evolve as a clean green solution? strange that. I know we were told in our youth that Diesel was the safest fuel compared with dangerous petrol - a bit about electric cars and batteries trickling through too -maybe whistle blowers? who knows these days. Truth often loses when big bucks and politics get involved. Then their is the issue of tyre wear pollution - where will it end...

    Horse but then you get horse manure, and of course Ad Blue is urea and I seem to recall that urea was one of the rain drop clumping particles, so horses and cattle might get banned to.. yes where does it end, walking permitted as long as you don't wear shoes.

    Good read anyway.

    Ken

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    There's also the geopolitical angle to this. The quicker countries aren't reliant on oil-rich countries, the quicker they gain power and independence. Think about what happens to countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia if people no longer need their commodities at such a large quantity.

    However, this is clearly a gradual phase out. My understanding is that this means no new petrol or diesel cars will be made from 2040, meaning you can still drive what you had. Imagine it'll then get to 2050 etc when petrol and diesel are no longer possible to buy and our petrol stations will become charging stations.

    I've read a number of people being worried about the impact this is going to have, mainly on how will people afford it, how will electric cars being able to cover the distances petrol cars can and how will we generate this much electricity. Reasonable concerns, but technology is increasing exponentially and it wouldn't surprise me if cars could be fully charged in a matter of minutes by that time.
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    I would suggest that if the Middle East with their vast oil reserves (and nothing else) found that they had an unwanted product, the European countries could probably bypass electric vehicles and progress straight to man powered vehicles. I suggest there would be a mass migration of peoples from that area into Europe, providing abundant manpower.

    Interesting philosophical problem - fixing one problem at the expense of creating another.

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    Guys, new diesel and petrol cars, i.e. presumably trucks and other commercial/industrial vehicles can still have IC engines after this (Can't picture an electrically powered prime mover pulling a 40 tonne B-double a 1000km) and the millions of petrol powered cars already on the road won't be scrapped on January 1st 2040 therefor petrol/diesel will still be available for some considerable time after 2040.
    This is the UK and I'm likely to be dead in 2040 so I'm not concerned.

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    G'day,

    Quote Originally Posted by FIVEDOOR View Post
    Talking of moving away from oil, if that did happen on large enough scale and there was a substantial oil price fall, that would have the potential to bankrupt Russian economy and I cant see the Arab being happy with oil price fall either.
    your forgot the sub-continent, they seem to provide all the vendors.....

    cheers,
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIVEDOOR View Post
    Talking of moving away from oil, if that did happen on large enough scale and there was a substantial oil price fall, that would have the potential to bankrupt Russian economy and I cant see the Arab being happy with oil price fall either.

    I am not sure where the UK is importing their oil from, but they have a massive source (exporter) next door in Norway.

    The russians are mainly in gas, and that is difficult to beat for domestic heating, not to mention they export a lot of other bananas (like us - think prime materials). They do however have the edge on us, because they also have the lion's share in the international arms trade (and wouldn't we like to take it). A grey market where everybody is dirty from Sweden to South Africa and from Patagonia to Alaska.

    Countries like the US or Russia never go bankrupt. They go to war.

    Worry if you want about countries like Venezuela.

    Back to transport fuels, I don't think you will ever see fossil fuels completely replaced (or not by renewables - directly or indirectly). That is if you consider nuclear fuels fossil. The future of oil is that it will run out no matter how we decide to use it (or not). And then what? Well, the only fuel you can take with you anywhere, including where the sun don't shine (hehehe) is some sort of nuclear fuel. We have the technology today and it's not any more expensive than anything else, but for political reasons (mainly shoved under the umbrella of "security reasons") nothing has been developed for the public market. This is of course hogwash, because there are many nuclear fuels that don't pose a more serious threat to the public than fizzy over-sugared drinks.


    That is the only plausible future in a world without oil (or at least the only plausible future we can count on today), and it is perfectly feasible for just about any form of transport we need (or mining/earth moving, etc).

    Ren - the big 200ton mine dumpers are electric, BTW. So are the big diggers used in mining, the underground equipment and so on. Massive machinery. True, some of these use some sort of generator powered by fossil fuels in some cases, but small on-board nuclear reactors we can build today would more than satisfy such needs.

    Australia is (as always) idiotic in refusing to develop cutting edge technologies to use such fuels safely on a large scale and sell them to the rest of the world for mega bucks. If we had started investing in such ideas back in the fifties, we would be now on top of the world, and have clean energy to boot. Chance of that happening - zilch. Public ignorance and poor political culture will see to it.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 27th July 2017 at 12:40 PM.
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    The proposed adoption of all-electric cars by 2040 in many places has nothing to do with saving the planet or any other green tinged idea. It is based on the elephant in the room that Schlitzy mentioned, that is the inevitable decline in oil production, which even the Arabs must have realised is going to occur sooner, rather than later.
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    I think it does have a lot to do with green ideas, but not only.

    A lot of countries have gone to extreme lengths to rid themselves of dependency on fossil fuel imports (or minimise it) back many years ago (the oil crisis in the early seventies) only because they would rather sell stuff to dodgy arabs/russians/etc than buy it from them. Nothing to do with greeneries, but a worthy goal.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    And how common is lithium? If they keep making batteries for all the cars/transport what would the price of lithium be then?
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    Icon10 My ponderings (if you disagree they don't matter)

    Some "food for thought" in those posts. I have always been in favour of urban electric transport, not so much that is clean, more that if you discount the environmental side issues they have with production of batteries, use of metals, and still have tyres and some brake materials and the makeup and disposal of the batteries, such use in urban areas will make greenies happy and be a real slap in the eye for the fuel pump profiteers who are at present making lots of "Hay" (profits) from gouging us and of course the urban new agers will only have to moan at the huge electricity bills they get, as that will be the new taxing environment of ALL levels of government.

    The international effect of reduced need for fossil fuel use will also be a slap in the face to the oil cartels, but then Slitz reminded us of nations like Venezuela who are in such economic chaos and such an ongoing glut will likely decimate their economy.

    When the final shakedown ends, perhaps it will be the poorer nations that will band together and use their natural reserves for the good of their inhabitants for as long as the other powerful nations will let them use their own resources. One could ponder if the "rich" and powerful will allow the poorer to burn fossil fuels to improve the lives of their citizens, or will that be deemed a crime against the planet and humanity?

    As electricity prices rise, will nuclear become an inescapable reality to urban greenies? Especially if they are promised that storage of by products won't be an alarming issue? That shouldn't be a problem as urban green seem to be a fertile ground to swallow propaganda as long as you sprinkle in the right saving the planet, looking after the future needs of children, key words and phrases that governments hire people to spin, to sell those ideas and once so convinced they don't like to give up the implanted ideas.!!

    When you think about all the "spin" and propaganda that was put into alternative and expensive investments that push the renewables industry, and how easy it was to despoil the countryside with whirlygigs anything can be accomplished if you keep the emphasis away from the negatives and a good scare or two in the mix does wonders to politically sell "desirable" outcomes.

    As a people and social habit observer, it will be interesting to see where this goes in a world along with the humanity perspective, but I don't think our generation will see any real solutions or results and the planet will plug on as it has for eons with or without us humans pondering the imponderables , just my

    Sorry about my observations, and I am sure others have different opinions, and that is all good as long as people put their minds to work, allow discussion of the issues without trying to shout down those that disagree, I am sure inventive humans will either find common sense solutions, or invent new technology to provide answers.

    Might even be exciting rather than inciting wars as has been the answer in human history sadly.

    Ken
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    bob
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    G'day,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Some "food for thought" in those posts.......the urban new agers will only have to moan at the huge electricity bills they get, as that will be the new taxing environment of ALL levels of government.........
    and bit more tucker.... You can disconnect from the grid, if it so pleases you, and you wont have to pay the resellers a cent. Just count your lucky stars that the SECV didn't have the billing power of the water boards - you can pee in a bucket and turn the taps off, you'll still get an enforceable bill whether you use them or not. The service only has to pass your way and you've won a bill.

    BTW, there's a fella in Skipton that lives without grid power, and within the township. Most of his toys have alternative power, we've had gas/kero coolers for ever, if he gets really desperate he fires up the little generator. Many farms within Victoria were not connected to the grid until the 50's, probably so that they could get a tele to watch the Melbourne Olympics....

    Power bills are crippling the local Historical Society, they don't use any power and it costs them $1000/year for service charges because they have two tiny buildings that require two meters. Because they are heritage buildings it's being 'made difficult' to install any panels. Powercor read and direct these two meters from afar, but they reckon that they can't tell the 'puter to treat them as one service.... crap....

    cheers,
    Bob

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    Power bills are crippling the local Historical Society, they don't use any power and it costs them $1000/year for service charges because they have two tiny buildings that require two meters. Because they are heritage buildings it's being 'made difficult' to install any panels. Powercor read and direct these two meters from afar, but they reckon that they can't tell the 'puter to treat them as one service.... crap..
    ACCC accuses states of price gouging residents over electricity supply - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Rod Sims seems to share your view.

    However treating two meters as single may be problematic exception. In view of the fact there are several millions of other meters are treated a singles. And the processing software decides what will happen.

    You may need to change retailers and find a retailer who offers discounts for voluntary organizations.

    As an example : https://www.synergy.net.au/Large-bus...Plan-C1-Tariff
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    Icon11 Off Grid, off radar..spare a thought for the self funded refugee.....

    Thanks Rob and Bob, yes I have thought about off grid for years, and perhaps Edgeweller would have more to say on achieving that, (we would love to hear from him again, just to know he is o.k.!!) My cynical thing about going off the grid, is that if everyone did that, how long before the government of the people!! would step in and legislate to stop that.

    I reckon many got conned into putting up solar panels on the back of the tempting stories of the early solar converts who were getting a generous (subsidy?) with the high then solar feed in tariffs on offer. Now it seems so reduced that it is hardly worth the initial investment that will take many years (probably to replacement) to recoup, and then guess what, your local council will demand a huge price to dispose of the "toxic" or some other "scary reason" panels, complete with an at your cost EPA high price certificate of disposal, etc. etcetera.

    The poor old consumer never wins unless you can work out some scheme to outwit the nitwits in charge of the energy supply. Batteries (at your cost of course) may help, but even then most of the energy your equipment produces on sunny clear days goes back as a FREE gift to the Energy retailer due to the low feedback tariff. So high production does not help you that much.

    Irks me to see one of our largest Energy retailer investor in high cost renewable Energy, patting themselves on the back in big paid advertisements in Australian Newspapers as doing the right thing in moving away from coal and using their renewable investment. Talk about foxes in the hen-house!

    More expensive for consumers, means more profit for investors. So I don't hold out much hope for residential consumers getting any REAL bill relief, just demands for you to give them the keys to your account for auto billing and they will give you a discount (now) that may be whittled down later, or like Water and Energy companies higher standing charges.

    Still who am I to point that out, leave it to the spin doctors they will find a wonderful side to promote.

    I guess if you go off grid, and pee in a bucket, don't tell the government - can I rent a shack in the extreme corner of your Skipton country tree change block Bob!

    Would we qualify as urban refugees!! economic or otherwise...

    Ken

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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    No new petrol powered cars after 2040 - in UK?

    Que Sera Sera.

    That's how it affects me. Life and cars will go on.

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