France goes all electric vehicles by 2040
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    Fellow Frogger! driven's Avatar
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    Default France goes all electric vehicles by 2040

    France is banning sales of all petrol and diesel fuels by 2040

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    Be plenty of cheap cars coming onto the market for worldwide sale

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...l-macron-volvo

    VOLVO SAYS IT WILL BE ALL ELECTRIC BY 2030

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    VOLVO SAYS IT WILL BE ALL ELECTRIC BY 2030
    As I've said elsewhere, let's at least get the details in the Volvo press release correct.

    By 2019, Volvo group intends to offer only either fully electric or hybrid engines on all new models, making it the first automaker to commit to using only alternative drive trains
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    So what electric cars are available and practical in Australia at the moment? I have seen Tesla Model S regularly but they are $250K plus. There is the Renault Zoe coming maybe, Peugeot has a 208 electric (eg. Zoe competitor for 2018). Peugeot is releasing the 3008 Hibrid, but will it come to Australia. Nissan has the leaf but it is not competitively priced. Toyota has a range of Hibrids which are more designed to meet EURO 6 rather than zero emission etc, because they have not developed their Petrol or diesels they sell here. VW already has GTE in Europe but they are expensive. Australia cannot continue to use dirty Coal fired power stations to power these electric vehicles or there would be not point in having them. The increase of electric vehicles in Australia would increase coal fired pollution.

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    than zero emission
    An impossible and unrealistic pursuit, when one considers the embodied energy of building the vehicle.
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    Icon5 Just another phase change to appease the economists and profit makers or?

    By gosh perhaps Tony should have included the "option" of having nuclear power to drive our French build submarines as he said recently, as that would be clean and pure, driving electric turbines, perhaps we should revisit he whole concept as France obviously does not want to be seen supplying such polluting engines, or is it submarines operate out of sight under water so out of sight out of mind for the Colonials in far off Australia and I guess war machines may be exempt anyway when push comes to shove.

    Food for thought for Malcolm muddle millions and how long before battery manufacture and disposal becomes the next scary environmental disaster. Probably when money making requires them to be obsolete and replaced by something else to keep the wheels of manufacturing progress turning a profit? an economists dream scenario.

    Still I like electric, just no one calculates the hidden issues as they rush to economic solutions.

    Regards
    Ken

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    Still I like electric, just no one calculates the hidden issues as they rush to economic solutions.
    The situation for powerwall et al may well improve, who knows?

    Australian company launches home solar storage battery to take on electronics giant Tesla - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Unlike nuclear, which will always produce radio active waste which is toxic for several thousand years.

    Not to mention the questionable safety.

    Both of which are "hidden issues" in your parlance.
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    Maybe they should be designing a battery that does not require recycling or regeneration, like a permanent battery. Interesting there are the foundations of Australia’s first nuclear power generation facility at Jervis Bay Australian Territory. I also know an architect who had a contract for drawing up another 15 nuclear PowerStations around Australia in the early 1970’s. It all came to a stop with the signing of some global agreement where Australia dropped a nuclear future in preference to filthy coal power. There must be a smarter engineering solution to network safe power distribution across Australia for the future. Maybe have all building roofs made of vast modular solar cells tiles and store electricity in these new or better batteries in each building and then connect to a shared electrical power grid like a LAN. Also electric cars have to be made in volumes to be more competitive than the Internal Combustion Engine. I have seen some extreme technology to do with ultrahigh energy but this is way beyond these current idiots.

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    Funny that the Snowy scheme is one put up to simulate the storage of energy by repumping with modern turbines that can extract almost all that energy and convert it to electricity. I say funny because the real political reason for building the Snowy scheme was so that we would have the available water to cool the workings of a Nuclear power plant so we could build atomic bombs from refined uranium and yes there are records and references in government hands and libraries, but you have to do a small amount of research to get the facts.

    But then history research is not a strong point today and science loses out to a sort of religious belief and no research required - just accept some experts claims,that is good enough for our academic ruler experts.

    Ken
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    The Snowy Mountains were built as a starter motor for coal fired plants.

    If every coal fired plant was off, then there was no power to actually start one.

    They need huge power just to get fired up and going

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    People living in flats will have to dangle the power lead out their window to recharge their car in the street
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    The way things are going in Australia, it will only be the privileged few have that live in the capital Cities that will have the money to show off their imported electric vehicle, and run them on super dooper high priced battery energy. The have nots of course will have to walk to keep warm, burn books, wood, coal, anything that they can lay hands on. I guess only then will some wonder what they voted for in their life of lowly servitude. But they did have "the vote" and beggars who can vote can be thankfull for in the choosing.

    Maybe the rich will employ the poor to polish those vehicles a truly serf driven economy but did they save the world. Twill be an interesting observation to watch how mankind survives in tis brave new world or will we all be revolting in the future....

    I guess eventually sanity will prevail, and good old Australian ingenuity kick in and some politicians get kicked out, as technology and innovation kick starts our own industry, never know we might lead the world if we did that.
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    G'day,

    is there actually a practical all electric car ? I doubt it, I pull into the pumps and fill up with instant power in a few minutes. Unless someone comes up with EverReadys for cars the convenience of liquid fuel is hard to beat...

    There's a fueling point for these quarter-million-buck toys in Ballarat, opposite a shopping center so you can keep yourself amused whilst it's plugged in. Spoke to one owner there, there's no pay-as-u-go function, he says he gets a bill, according to him the company 'puter knows all about the car as soon as it's plugged in - how much to bill, how much it's using, where it's been....

    cheers,
    Bob
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    If you can afford a Tesla on a legal income, you are unlikely to carry cash.

    The local council here realised this and the parking meters now send the bill to your smart phone. I had to help an old couple from elsewhere visiting a doctor recently - they were at a meter that doesn't bother with coins.
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    Hi
    Perhaps this is small beer in the electric vehicle stakes. I purchased an electric scooter back years ago and used it to commute to work which was only a couple of ks over the hill. Did that for years until I retired. No fuel cost and saved the parking impost also. I just plugged the scooter in at work inside for the trip home or to keep the batteries full. I still have it but not legal now ?

    Now I have a mobility scooter which I inherited, and I use that for trips to the local shopping center or library. Easy to do and no cost at all as I use my solar power to charge it !! East to park also at the shopping center as I can go on the pedestrian areas and even inside if i chose Seems an easy way to go !
    Jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    The way things are going in Australia, it will only be the privileged few have that live in the capital Cities that will have the money to show off their imported electric vehicle, and run them on super dooper high priced battery energy. The have nots of course will have to walk to keep warm, burn books, wood, coal, anything that they can lay hands on. I guess only then will some wonder what they voted for in their life of lowly servitude. But they did have "the vote" and beggars who can vote can be thankfull for in the choosing.

    Maybe the rich will employ the poor to polish those vehicles a truly serf driven economy but did they save the world. Twill be an interesting observation to watch how mankind survives in tis brave new world or will we all be revolting in the future....

    I guess eventually sanity will prevail, and good old Australian ingenuity kick in and some politicians get kicked out, as technology and innovation kick starts our own industry, never know we might lead the world if we did that.
    If you can "downgrade your expectations" you can buy a Base model Toyota Prius (hybrid) for mid $30k or if you are fully decided on all electric , you can pay $51K for Nissan Leaf (fully battery).

    The cheapest Holden Commodore is around $40K

    So you can buy a new Prius for less that a new Commodore.

    Edit
    Or a Honda Hybrid $30K

    So I'd suggest "electric cars" are becoming pretty affordable.
    Last edited by robmac; 11th July 2017 at 10:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    G'day,

    is there actually a practical all electric car ? I doubt it, I pull into the pumps and fill up with instant power in a few minutes. Unless someone comes up with EverReadys for cars the convenience of liquid fuel is hard to beat...

    There's a fueling point for these quarter-million-buck toys in Ballarat,

    cheers,
    Bob
    they're not as expensive as you think. The prices range from $110k to $210k, with most models less than $150k. That ain't cheap, but it isn't more expensive than lots of cars. You can pay $100k for a Landcruiser. I agree that there is nothing more convenient than filling up at the gasso, but these Teslas will do several hundred kilometres between a charge, so for most drivers, that is a practical all electric car. You just have to charge them overnight.

    Regards,
    John

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    A Zoe in France with a 400km range currently costs 23,700 Euros, or AUD 35,200. A Nissan Leaf in France costs 28,689 Euros, AUD 42,609. No wonder they sell they sell a heap more than Tesla........
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    G'day,

    Quote Originally Posted by John Handley View Post
    they're not as expensive as you think. The prices range from $110k to $210k, with most models less than $150k. That ain't cheap, but it isn't more expensive than lots of cars. You can pay $100k for a Landcruiser. I agree that there is nothing more convenient than filling up at the gasso, but these Teslas will do several hundred kilometres between a charge, so for most drivers, that is a practical all electric car. You just have to charge them overnight.

    Regards,
    John
    I've heard that they don't go quite as far as is said, it's bit like petrol economy claim numbers, only much worse. It's very dependent on weather conditions calling for heating or cooling, is it dark ?, are you in a hurry ? Combine all three and the batteries are heading for a hiding. Chap I spoke to in Ballarat said 200k is about it for a fill, dunno how long it takes to re-fill, but 200k is not a hell of a lot; it's about 180k from here to Melbourne which we often do both ways in the one day. One is going to need convenient and quick filling or bloody long extension lead...

    Even the v8 ute will go to town and back for 'arf a tank...

    Capital costings ? Most of us, as distinct from them, don't buy new and we don't spend $100k. Anything around similar to our recent three year old Renault Latitude at $19k ? Which raises another problem waiting in the wings, what is owner number two looking forward to, and how long before, the batteries throw in the towel ?

    cheers,
    Bob

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    It may well be that Electric vehicles are the way of the future, but there are a number of critical issues to be resolved first..
    1. The source of the power to charge/recharge the batteries. Currently mostly coal so defeats most of the "clean" purpose, but out of sight, so out of mind.
    2. The source of the lithium etc to make the batteries. The mining of the more exotic minerals to actually make the vehicle and battery in the first place. And the "environmental" cost of actually making the vehicle.
    3. The life of the batteries and what will be done to dispose of them when they eventually fail or are no longer viable.
    4. The range of the vehicles. Australia is a big place and where I currently live there is not much hope of selling someone a vehicle of any sort that will only get you 200 Klms before needing a couple of hours to recharge/refuel at the special fast boost fuel stations (very few of these) or close to overnight on normal circuits.

    What has happened to development of the Hydrogen powered options.? Hyundai had one in Australia and Toyota also. And Honda was also doing one at one stage. Similar issues with refuelling sites but not in the time taken. Range was much the same as petrol/diesel so more realistic there. I'm not up on the technology but seems just as feasible.?

    The next few years will be very interesting as to who or what technology eventually takes over from the internal combustion power plants we have used for about a hundred years. I hope the best technology wins in the true sense and not the best technology for the economic benefit of the technology stakeholders/shareholders.

    And what is to become of all the current petrol/diesel vehicles when the switch comes.? A lot of nice vehicles will be virtually worthless in a matter of months.

    We live in interesting times.....
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    The way I see it is that electric vehicles have two problems to overcome:

    1) Range
    2) Recharge times

    The price of electric vehicles will be taken care of when they are mass produced by every car manufacturer when they have the above problems sorted.

    As far as current modern petrol/diesel cars go, they will be recycled like they are now at the various recycling plants, and lets face it most modern cars aren't really collectible so will just be a thing of the past.
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    Whenever there is a "forced" change by either regulation or coercion or catastrophic media scares, things will eventually shake out and of course man is inventive and most wont take claimed performance as genuine until the actual facts filter out eventually.

    I blame the economists who actually are environmental vandals as they like such changes, out with the old technology and in with the new, means the consumer has to pay out for all new when in truth the old could be used for many years to come, saving on precious raw materials, reducing environmental pollution, scrappage need for recycling, but the economist would rub their hands and say good to stimulate economies these consumer mandates, reminds me of those Bad Santa caricatures and suchlike but it really runs against all the things the idealists and socialists have lamented over the years.

    Wealthy countries creating wealth through consumerism and keeping third world countries exactly as they are. I call it the illusion of care, and very noticeable in the proliferation of those weepy "concern" adds that find a child in quite terrible circumstances that you MUST give this corporate entity $50 to save this child from poverty and then you find out that $45 is used up by that Corporate entity in feeding itself, three dollars goes to some world body that protects the Corporate entity and after paying baksheesh of corruption demanded by officials perhaps 1 to 5 cents gets to "help" a mess that some created.

    Maybe I will keep my Megane diesel going in reversal of the trend, that is till some idiot mandates we serfs can't extend the lifetime of our consumer product....In the name of saving the world or some other motherhood cause and if that fails we owe it, so get taxed out of existence. Interesting times indeed.

    Now what was that about a carbon tax, consumer tax, help the starving children tax, don't hold your breath tax.. endless economists dreams.

    Ken
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    Maybe I will keep my Megane diesel going in reversal of the trend, that is till some idiot mandates we serfs can't extend the lifetime of our consumer product....In the name of saving the world or some other motherhood cause and if that fails we owe it, so get taxed out of existence. Interesting times indeed.
    Remember it will be 23 years until France introduces all electric vehicles.

    And probably a lot longer before Australia follows.

    In 23 years your car will due be recycling anyway.

    Bearing in mind the average car in Australia 10.1 years old and 12.2 years in Tassie.

    I see the move as very sensible phase out of old technology and introduction to the new.

    Frankly I can't see a problem : no-one will force you to dispose of serviceable vehicle , but rather when replacement is due you will be required to buy a vehicle modern technology.

    Similar to the introduction of electronic safety systems into modern cars.
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    Also another thing that has not been mentioned is that servicing of cars will change. Electric motors don't need an oil change every 10,000Km or what ever the service interval is.

    Maybe every 5 to 10 years the batteries will be replaced, or maybe it will be uneconomical to change batteries and we will just buy a new car as we do now when a major component of our cars costs thousands to replace.
    Regards Col

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    Toyota already offer an 8 year/ 160,00 warranty on their hybrid batteries.

    On averages, a consumer who buys an electric vehicle and keeps it for 10 years (current average ownership time), is not likely to replace batteries.
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