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  1. #51
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizardofaus View Post
    Completely fatuous argument.

    Look at it another way: 20 years ago there was no electric car you could buy in Australia, and now there is an electric car you can buy with a range of 400km. Using your maths we can safely predict that electric cars in 23 years time will have unlimited range on one charge.
    Sadly, the fact is that in the intervening 185 years no-one has been able to turn out an electric car that can replace the IC version. Even the best and most expensive still have a very limited range and stupendous recharge times. The technology that developed supersonic airliners still has not been able to come up with a replacement for the car that the masses will buy.

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    Bearing in mind that France is going to recharge them with their 58 nuclear reactors (operated by Electricite de France (EdF)), with a total capacity of 63.2 GWe, supplying 436 TWh of electricity in 2014, 77.5% of the total generated there. The French are apparently going to try and reduce their dependence on nuclear power to 50% by 2025. Considering the huge extra amount of power required to propel the nations' electric vehicles after all IC units have been replaced on top of everything else makes one wonder how the hell they think they can do this? Non, c'ette impossible!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Sadly, the fact is that in the intervening 185 years no-one has been able to turn out an electric car that can replace the IC version. Even the best and most expensive still have a very limited range and stupendous recharge times. The technology that developed supersonic airliners still has not been able to come up with a replacement for the car that the masses will buy.

    Bearing in mind that France is going to recharge them with their 58 nuclear reactors (operated by Electricite de France (EdF)), with a total capacity of 63.2 GWe, supplying 436 TWh of electricity in 2014, 77.5% of the total generated there. The French are apparently going to try and reduce their dependence on nuclear power to 50% by 2025. Considering the huge extra amount of power required to propel the nations' electric vehicles after all IC units have been replaced on top of everything else makes one wonder how the hell they think they can do this? Non, c'ette impossible!
    Bullshit. if we listen to that sort of argument we would be riding horses because petrol engines were inefficient and noisy. No - we would still be walking because horses were difficult to train...

    Or maybe you would still be living in a tree, refusing to use the new technology of walking upright?

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    There is no such thing as a free lunch, and electricity is a well known and researched subject. I'm using it to type and send this to you on a computer. You are receiving this message within seconds of my typing it, but if it was being sent by an electric vehicle I fear you might be in a nursing home before you got it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Considering the huge extra amount of power required to propel the nations' electric vehicles after all IC units have been replaced on top of everything else makes one wonder how the hell they think they can do this? Non, c'ette impossible!
    You need to bear in mind that France is part of a big commercial electricity grid called Europe. It can buy electricity from other countries as it already does. Much as I like a good ICE, if all the extra electricity came from gas powered stations, it is still a lot less CO2 per kilometer than when burning petrol.

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    Necessity is the mother of invention they say.
    50 years ago petrol was cheap and no one outside of a few fringe greenies gave a rat's rectum about pollution, global warming, petrol shortages, etc. The IC engine was king (and still is) and there was no need for an electric car outside of a few commercial applications where noise and/or exhaust would be a problem.
    No need = no profit = no research. So while electric (and say, steam) cars have been around for over 100 years not a lot of research was directed there and little advancement was forthcoming.
    The situation now is that there is a need for electric (or alternate fuel) vehicles and a lot of research is being directed towards achieving usable electric vehicles. The problem with the current EV are the batteries, not motors or drive train. Electric motors are already more efficient than IC engines.
    Batteries need to be able to charge quickly, have sufficient capacity (range), be relatively small, reliable, and be cheap.
    The currently available batteries have one or two or even three of these characteristics but need to have at least 4 to be viable.
    I'm sure many here can remember when thing like cassette players, Colour televisions, VCR's, mobile phones, automatic gearboxes, ETC. were first released. One thing they had in common when first released they were all large, expensive, and lacking features, and in some cases didn't work very well and were unreliable. (Bit like the current EV offerings except they're large in batteries only). But now, after 20 or 30 years (or more), the ones that have not been consigned to history like the VCR, etc. are all low cost and compact and have features the original designers would have only dreamed about.
    If the will and the money is there then the problem can be overcome.
    Mainstream car manufacturers are either paying lips service to EV (or alternate fuel) research or dancing about on the fringes.
    France can do it but it needs the car manufacturers to be serious in their commitments to EV and/or alternate fuel research.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    In the Summer I could fit a long flat Solar panel to act as a shade and power packer extended over the entire length of the car.

    Ken
    The power pack extender would probably increase the range by about the length of your driveway.
    The Fuego already has an electric motor and battery, range about the length of your driveway.


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    The Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance is already the largest electric vehicle manufacturer in the world. Including Mitsubishi sales, the Renault-Nissan Alliance has sold in total 424,797 electric cars through the end of 2016, according to a company press release.

    This compares with 88,100,000 vehicles sold worldwide just in 2016 alone. Methinks there is still a long way to go......
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    Yep , and 23 years is indeed a long time .
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Yep , and 23 years is indeed a long time .
    Not as long as the previous 185! Electric motors, as others have said, are efficient and have been that way since their invention. The thing that has been lacking since then is a respectable power storage system. In spite of the world's best brains, no such thing exists today and in the absence of some miraculous discovery in the next 23 years the likelihood of one being available is pretty much nil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Not as long as the previous 185! Electric motors, as others have said, are efficient and have been that way since their invention. The thing that has been lacking since then is a respectable power storage system. In spite of the world's best brains, no such thing exists today and in the absence of some miraculous discovery in the next 23 years the likelihood of one being available is pretty much nil.
    Kim look where battery drills were 30 years ago and now look where they are.

    I agree the battery technology has a long way to go.

    In 1949 if you said a man was going to walk on the moon they would of laughed at you.

    Never say never, just saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Not as long as the previous 185! Electric motors, as others have said, are efficient and have been that way since their invention. The thing that has been lacking since then is a respectable power storage system. In spite of the world's best brains, no such thing exists today and in the absence of some miraculous discovery in the next 23 years the likelihood of one being available is pretty much nil.
    It's not the motors that need to develop, as Col said it's the batteries that need development.

    And with Solar storage at the forefront there is money to be made in battery development.

    Li Fe was the game changer for battery power tools. And Li Fe pretty well rendered most portable mains powered tools obsolete.

    23 years is almost a quarter of a decade and I would't be too quick to dismiss the possibility of a "miraculous development", especially with the financial incentives in building a better battery.
    Last edited by robmac; 19th July 2017 at 11:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    In the Summer I could fit a long flat Solar panel to act as a shade and power packer extended over the entire length of the car.

    Ken
    The power pack extender would probably increase the range by about the length of your driveway.
    The Fuego already has an electric motor and battery, range about the length of your driveway.

    Its indeed as silly an idea as you make out, a roof of a typical car is around 2 square meters, which could provide around 1kWh per day on average. Since modern electric cars need around 10-20kwh/100km (Electric cars Specifications) you might get an extra 5-10km of range per day which is not enough to justify the costs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    In spite of the world's best brains, no such thing exists today and in the absence of some miraculous discovery in the next 23 years the likelihood of one being available is pretty much nil.
    The battery packs in Tesla cars get them several hundred kilometres. How far do you want to go? It isn't great for interstate travel, but more than enough for driving around the city.

    I noticed the other day there is a charging station up my way, at Hexham NSW. I reckon that probably means you can get Sydney to Brisbane with your Tesla car, just like there are charging stations to go Sydney to Melbourne.

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    But not all of us live in the big smoke-this is where we will need another 20 years to catch up. How will the bushies go with their electric
    landcruisers? Will diesels run on caster oil? Perhaps they could be made environmentally friendly until the grazier can up date his pedal powered radio/generator. The voting power of the Big Hats is enough to bring down some of the city based political parties. Time will tell. Did I hear someone named T... call for nuclear power stations???

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    Quote Originally Posted by geedee View Post
    But not all of us live in the big smoke-this is where we will need another 20 years to catch up. How will the bushies go with their electric
    landcruisers? Will diesels run on caster oil? Perhaps they could be made environmentally friendly until the grazier can up date his pedal powered radio/generator. The voting power of the Big Hats is enough to bring down some of the city based political parties. Time will tell. Did I hear someone named T... call for nuclear power stations???
    Bum snorkels for your cows ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geedee View Post
    But not all of us live in the big smoke-this is where we will need another 20 years to catch up. How will the bushies go with their electric
    landcruisers? Will diesels run on caster oil? Perhaps they could be made environmentally friendly until the grazier can up date his pedal powered radio/generator. The voting power of the Big Hats is enough to bring down some of the city based political parties. Time will tell. Did I hear someone named T... call for nuclear power stations???
    There has been a lot of research into running biodiesel through "normal" engines. They might need slightly different tuning, lubrication, and pollution controls to be exactly where they were to begin with but direct injection diesels run ok on many different fuel sources. Like with E85, lack of supply and demand is the big thing stopping it moving forward until fuel prices increase a lot and make it a pure economic decision.
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    Another report pushing the electric vehicle market and calculations as to the effect on oil production, but developing nations will still provide fossil fuel demand apparently.

    https://www.upi.com/Electric-vehicle.../?spt=slh&or=3

    I also see that shale gas drilling offshore in the UK is apparently about to start with four wells scheduled, with two to be completed in 2017, lots of interesting international energy 'stuff" underway. Might replace GB use and dependence on USA gas imports.?

    Ken

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    Perhaps on the subject of moving away from fossil fuels, the Daily Mail has opened a campaign to expose the downsides of mining cobalt that is apparently needed in larger quantities for new automotive battery technology. It is rather emotional in its exposure of the Katanga mining operations and the Asian strangle hold on the supply chain.

    Child miners aged four at Congo cobalt mine | Daily Mail Online.

    I guess that in time there will be other exposures on the environmental concerns of disposal of the many thousands of batteries, even if they are neatly packaged as return to manufacturer under an exchange program - where do they dispose of the materials, or can they be recycled.

    All issues that need discussion.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    where do they dispose of the materials, or can they be recycled. Ken
    Anything that is toxic, deadly or poisonous will continue to be dumped off the coast of Somalia and no-one will care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Perhaps on the subject of moving away from fossil fuels, the Daily Mail has opened a campaign to expose the downsides of mining cobalt that is apparently needed in larger quantities for new automotive battery technology. It is rather emotional in its exposure of the Katanga mining operations and the Asian strangle hold on the supply chain.

    Child miners aged four at Congo cobalt mine | Daily Mail Online.

    I guess that in time there will be other exposures on the environmental concerns of disposal of the many thousands of batteries, even if they are neatly packaged as return to manufacturer under an exchange program - where do they dispose of the materials, or can they be recycled.

    All issues that need discussion.

    Ken
    I wonder which will kill them first.

    Solar storage battery manufacture or vehicle battery manufacture?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Anything that is toxic, deadly or poisonous will continue to be dumped off the coast of Somalia and no-one will care.
    Sadly, you are probably right, lot of lip service environmentalists out there when money making is the prime objective.

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    If this article is to be believed, some of the electric vehicles will be seriously fast https://www.redbull.com/au-en/electric-car-tesla-rivals

    France goes all electric vehicles by 2040-nextev.jpg
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    Hi
    As best I can see it, the 'problems' with electric cars do not include lack of performance.
    I reckon the real 'problems' with them will be these...

    The lack of that internal combustion sounds which has been exciting blokes since about 1890.

    Whether or not the kill-joy fun-police part of society will actually allow you to drive them yourself.

    You won't have to spend a million bucks to have a devastatingly fast car, so how are really rich show-offs going to show off?

    Regards,
    John
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    This might overcome the lack of internal combustion sound - piping artificial engine sound(!) Faking It: Engine-Sound Enhancement Explained - Tech Dept. - Car and Driver

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