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  1. #126
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    um yes kim, i do recall it, and it was "based on" designs from somewhere else, with substantial changes, and not just a re-badged car from elsewhere. or in other words, your example argues against your own assertion.
    An Opel Commodore with thicker body panels is still an Opel Commodore........................

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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    An Opel Commodore with thicker body panels is still an Opel Commodore........................
    read my last post.
    the car for which you provided a photo, isnt the "basis" for the aussie commodore.
    it IS THE aussie commodore, which was created by grafting bits of two existing Opels, and which was then used by Opel as well.

    so in fact the aussie commodore was a new car.

    btw, kim, as you have time to post on AF, dont forget to enlighten me in the appropriate thread as to how the ever present threat of tacit collusion should be addressed. you wouldnt want ken to beat you to it.
    Last edited by alexander; 17th March 2017 at 01:57 PM.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    read my last post.
    the car for which you provided a photo, isnt the "basis" for the aussie commodore.
    it IS THE aussie commodore, which was created by grafting bits of two existing Opels, and which was then used by Opel as well.

    so in fact the aussie commodore was a new car.
    PAY ATTENTION, ALEXANDER:

    "It was the Opel Commodore and Vauxhall Viceroy that formed the basis for the first Holden Commodore in Australia,"

    That sentence is contained in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Commodore
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  4. #129
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    yes, but that is incorrect.

  5. #130
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    The Opels were pretty fragile when they were being tested for suitability in Australia in the mid 1970s. The suspensions alone were woefully underdone and local Holden engineers had to do a lot of work to make them rugged enough for our terrible roads. Ford experienced the same thing when it began making XL falcons in Australia in the early 1960s.

    GM will hold the IP for the current and next Opels and the Euro stuff Holden sells here will have GM dna. However it's the generation after that (mid 2020s) that will become more interesting, with a lot more French input.

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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    yes, but that is incorrect.
    Please supply supporting evidence that does not originate from your famous collection of two neurons.........
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  7. #132
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    if you cant read WP entries, that is not my duty to address.
    as noted an many occasions previously, when you are proven categorically wrong, no matter how clearly, you simply disappear from threads, without acknowledging your errors, only to repeat the same rubbish again a year later.

    so i may persevere when it amuses me, but on this occasion it does not. i will, owever, point you to post #130 as verification that the aussie commodore was not a rebadged car from somewhere else.

  8. #133
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    I'll quite categorically state that the Holden Commodore was based on the Opel Commodore (and the twinned Vauxhall, if you must). The fact that Holden found it necessary to strengthen parts of the original design is immaterial, the design was an Opel Commodore.
    Lipstick on a pig, really.
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  9. #134
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    Is that 75 kilometers from the beginning of your journey (more likely), or when your taco needle reaches 75,000 revs (less likely) on the dial?
    Xsaras
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    indeed. further, it seems that the aussie Commodore was actually constructed from two different Opels. some badge! to be fair, it seems the resulting car was larger (and no doubt heavier), so the 6 was probably warranted for power, and required for marketability. i would think the ability to house a V8 was also considered necessary for marketability / brand image.


    the irony of kim's picture above is that the Opel Commodore in that photo isnt the basis for the aussie commodore; it is Opel using the rekord/senator hybrid created as the aussie commodore. so in fact, the Opel was a badge version of the aussie car, not the other way around. i note that it had two inline 6 motor options as an Opel.
    Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember when this was all occurring. Yep, Opel took (not literally) the Aussie Commodore to Europe ... and sold it as the Opel Commodore. . . As you say, a badge-version of the Aussie car! Sorry Kim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveSoFar View Post
    Is that 75 kilometers from the beginning of your journey (more likely), or when your taco needle reaches 75,000 revs (less likely) on the dial?
    Well,that's interesting (and maybe a tad embarrassing) but that was supposed to be a response to robmac's 13 March 2017 post!
    Last edited by FiveSoFar; 20th March 2017 at 12:19 AM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveSoFar View Post
    Yep, Opel took (not literally) the Aussie Commodore to Europe ... and sold it as the Opel Commodore. . . As you say, a badge-version of the Aussie car! Sorry Kim.
    i was being a little tongue in cheek. as i read it, Opel produced the car known as the holden commodore, by amalgamating parts from two european opels, and to specifications which suited holden's requirements. the resulting car then was also sold as the Commodore C europe, as well as the holden commodore.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveSoFar View Post
    Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember when this was all occurring. Yep, Opel took (not literally) the Aussie Commodore to Europe ... and sold it as the Opel Commodore. . . As you say, a badge-version of the Aussie car! Sorry Kim.
    This was the six cylinder Opel which was introduced to the public at the 1977 Frankfurt Motor Show.
    It's named the Opel Senator. Which came first, the chicken or the 1978 Holden egg?
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  14. #139
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    Then they came back a few years ago attempting to sell Opel's in Australia.

    Many of them ended up @ Ballarat Holden @ sacrificed prices.

    Maybe they should have sent them up to Cooper Peedy where the real Opels were mined...Yes/No ?/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    This was the six cylinder Opel which was introduced to the public at the 1977 Frankfurt Motor Show.
    It's named the Opel Senator. Which came first, the chicken or the 1978 Holden egg?
    .....and the bigger Falcon flogged it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveSoFar View Post
    Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember when this was all occurring. Yep, Opel took (not literally) the Aussie Commodore to Europe ... and sold it as the Opel Commodore. . . As you say, a badge-version of the Aussie car! Sorry Kim.
    That's not right. The Kingswood was way past its lifespan and research suggested Australians wanted a smaller car. Holden looked into the GM world for a possible replacement. Opel had cars (Commodore, Senators etc) that weren't suitable but could be used as a base. GMH strengthened the chassis, steering,suspension etc as the German stuff was too fragile for Australian conditions.

    To suggest that Opel grabbed Holden Commodores, screwdrivered off the Holden lion and glued an Opel badge to it is a nonsense.
    Apart from late model HSV Commodores (Vauxhall VRX??) Opel has never sold Australian designed cars in Europe.

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    Toyota etc did the same and built cars suitable for the minimum standard required for that market requirements, in Fiji the Corolla had cross-ply tires, didn’t even have structure for seat belts and 1100cc engines in the 1980’s. I believe before the ‘Global Car’ production concept, cars are built only to suit the end market even more recent Holden’s for other US or Saudi markets. I guess you have seen this Commodore crash test video! ( I believe some say the trunk was full of sand but they may be GM bias!) So much for stiffening the chassis for Australian conditions?
    Holden VB 1978 Commodore crash test in 1992 RTA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlld5EzQTf4

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfamill View Post
    Toyota etc did the same and built cars suitable for the minimum standard required for that market requirements, in Fiji the Corolla had cross-ply tires, didn’t even have structure for seat belts and 1100cc engines in the 1980’s. I believe before the ‘Global Car’ production concept, cars are built only to suit the end market even more recent Holden’s for other US or Saudi markets. I guess you have seen this Commodore crash test video! ( I believe some say the trunk was full of sand but they may be GM bias!) So much for stiffening the chassis for Australian conditions?
    Holden VB 1978 Commodore crash test in 1992 RTA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlld5EzQTf4
    I think the common response to that crash is that the car had no driveshaft, 300kg of cement in the boot, and it was doing 100km/h and not the 60km/h (or less) or so that a lot of crashes might be done at. You'd have to find other crashes filmed under the same conditions to make any real judgement about it.

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    I did find some history of the RTA Commodore VB crash test. Assumptions aside, It was just a car available to test the RTA crash test rig and the only parameter mentioned was it may have been a 100kph impact. It seems 60kph and 100kph were the test speeds, either way it just fell apart.

    PSA have some real issues with the price of the GM Europe purchase and are seeking compensation for undisclosed issues.
    Last edited by halfamill; 4th January 2018 at 12:00 PM.

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    There were a few comments going around that PSA were likely to pay around $10 billion off the GM plants...I reckoned that was too much...3 billion more like it....apparently...after around 3.3 for the deal...they perused their purchase....found a way to recover 1.75 B.Wondering if it was the receivers who have bodied disclosures....nice if mess gets resolved amicably...

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    GM (Opel) weren't exactly truthful to PSA regarding emissions from their engines.
    Apparently they are much dirtier than they let on prior to the sale.
    PSA wants compensation for breach of contract as they have to try and clean them up.

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  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    GM (Opel) weren't exactly truthful to PSA regarding emissions from their engines.
    Apparently they are much dirtier than they let on prior to the sale.
    PSA wants compensation for breach of contract as they have to try and clean them up.

    Dave
    Maybe Opel (PSA) should talk to Volkswagen.
    VAG managed to find a magic fix when they we caught out selling polluting vehicles and falsifying the emission figures.
    (Although the magic fix was not to the liking of most consumers so they just continue to pollute the earth).
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  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Maybe Opel (PSA) should talk to Volkswagen.
    VAG managed to find a magic fix when they we caught out selling polluting vehicles and falsifying the emission figures.
    (Although the magic fix was not to the liking of most consumers so they just continue to pollute the earth).
    Don't tell the VAG fanbois.
    Their cars can do no wrong

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  25. #150
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    Clearly you have been visiting Dale Carnegie.




















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