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  1. #101
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    It is misleading to suggest that PSA is and hence Opel will be French owned. PSA is effectively controlled by three "shareholders of reference" they are the Peugeot family interests, The French Government and the Chinese Government controlled Dongfeng. They own together a minority of the shares at a level to avoid a forced takeover bid. The majority of the shares, since it is a listed company on the Euornext exchange and a member of the CAC40, are held primarily by international funds, typically pension funds. The operational management is based in France but the subsidiary brand CitroŽn is managed there by an English woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    Another twist in the tale...

    Once the symbol of Australia, Holden Commodore will be French-owned after GM sale

    https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/17...odore-in-doubt

    Unbelievable! My original joke may be more or less correct!

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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    ......
    Yes you could change gears manually if you wanted but really, how many people manually change gears in an automatic where the facility exists.....
    I change manually about 95% of the time in my (6 speed sequential) Smart Roadster, exception I make is in crawling stop - start traffic. It's sorta a 'DSG Lite' - only one clutch & much better to control manually. Rob


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    The only complaint I have with our Dsg is that "it decides" to change up early, whereas I'd like it hold the lower gear a bit longer when using paddles.

    However the rate it goes through the gears and the smoothness is amazing. Most the of time I couldn't do manual changes any better. It's into 7th gear by around 75 k.

    I'm sold on DSG. No more manuals or slush boxes for me.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The only complaint I have with our Dsg is that "it decides" to change up early, whereas I'd like it hold the lower gear a bit longer when using paddles.

    However the rate it goes through the gears and the smoothness is amazing. Most the of time I couldn't do manual changes any better. It's into 7th gear by around 75 k.

    I'm sold on DSG. No more manuals or slush boxes for me.
    The Smart has software that's supposed to 'learn' your driving style (while in manual mode) & adapt its change points to suit (in auto). Does work but assumes you always want to drive the same. Thus I've educated it to be Dr. Jekyll (actually Dr. Jerk-yll for the Smart progress) changing up early, maximum economy etc, Mr Hyde gives it a good Hyding in manual. :-)


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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    The Smart has software that's supposed to 'learn' your driving style (while in manual mode) & adapt its change points to suit (in auto). Does work but assumes you always want to drive the same. Thus I've educated it to be Dr. Jekyll (actually Dr. Jerk-yll for the Smart progress) changing up early, maximum economy etc, Mr Hyde gives it a good Hyding in manual. :-)


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    Dare I mention this is in VAG vehicle. Skoda Fabia Rs.

    It seems to be part of "nanny" software to hold the revs .
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  6. #106
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    the WP entry for the DSG says it has adaptive software to learn driver habits.
    That aside, i thought the mode which uses the paddles was full manual control. obviously not, but isnt there a way of achieving that? or would that be too manual, so to speak.

  7. #107
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    So, how did we get here?
    We're talking about PSA buying Opel & Vauxhall and we're rabbiting on about DSG boxes.
    Does anyone have anything to say about PSA/Opel/Vauxhall or even GM or Holden.

    Holden have form for rebadging cars, and not all form their sister companies in the GM family.
    We've had Vauxhalls, Opels, Chevrolets (remember the suburban), Isuzu (Gemini), Suzuki (beep beep Barina), Toyota, Nissans, and maybe even others so they're not likely to be concerned about putting a Holden badge on another manufacturer's vehicle.
    I doubt we'll ever see a Peugeot sold here with a Holden badge.
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    Holden are mere amateurs at rebadging compared to British Leyland of the 1960's as has been pointed out in preceding posts :-)


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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    So, how did we get here?
    We're talking about PSA buying Opel & Vauxhall and we're rabbiting on about DSG boxes.
    And all without the aid of a bottle of single malt!



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    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

  10. #110
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    Just thinking about it, Holden may be an excellent company for PSA to buy from GM. If they are going to be supplying most of Holden's vehicles, it's not a bad strategy. It's the dealership spread that rivals Toyota that would be appealing, together with brand loyalty of the great unwashed. I mean, who allows their wife to buy a Cruze???
    GM seems to be retreating into itself, and Holden doesn't seem to be important on any great level to them. The Chevy SS isn't selling well, and that's their sole export back home. The factories are closing shortly so they become even more an anachronism.

    Imagine Pugs selling alongside Opels, err, Holdens In Cunnanurra, Sale, Devonport, and everywhere in between? The dealership network is the prize.

    Dave
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  11. #111
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Just thinking about it, Holden may be an excellent company for PSA to buy from GM. If they are going to be supplying most of Holden's vehicles (the next Colorado will be Navara based obviously), it's not a bad strategy. It's the dealership spread that rivals Toyota that would be appealing, together with brand loyalty of the great unwashed. I mean, who allows their wife to buy a Cruze???
    GM seems to be retreating into itself, and Holden doesn't seem to be important on any great level to them. The Chevy SS isn't selling well, and that's their sole export back home. The factories are closing shortly so they become even more an anachronism.

    Imagine Pugs selling alongside Opels, err, Holdens In Cunnanurra, Sale, Devonport, and everywhere in between? The dealership network is the prize.

    Dave

    Maybe, if PSA were remotely interested in Australia.
    We're just an island stuck out in the Pacific with only 24 million people.
    Limited market and limited potential.
    They would be better served by a network in say, Indonesia or the Philippines if there don't have one already.

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    i dont quite see why anyone is contemplating PSA owning holden.
    the deal is for the sale of GM's european operations under the brand name Opel and Vauxhall.
    obviously, we arent in europe and Holden isnt Opel or Vauxhall.

    i gather from this thread that some Holden vehicles are/will be built in GM factories in europe owned by those companies, but just as they arent Opels or Vauxhalls now, that wouldnt make them PSA cars in the future. if GM retains ownership of the Holden and the cars it sells, then i would think that any future production of those cars from europe would be done on a contractual basis with PSA.

    anyway, there are any number of possibilities, but at this point the deal appears to be just europe, and just Vauxhall and Opel.

  13. #113
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    Our remoteness is best summed up by the (surely apocryphal) response when they were asked why they did not change the windscreen wipers to RHD for some model, I think it was the 504:

    - because we make your entire annual allocation in one factory in one morning, before morning tea time.

    Does not allow for the fact that they were sold in the UK, as well as other RHD markets.

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    Correct Alexander, it was merely supposition.
    If I was a car maker and I had an overseas market where there has existed strong brand loyalty, why wouldn't I want them to sell my vehicles, rather than buy them from a competitor?
    Are the US smaller cars (Malibu, Impala, Verana) so bad that they are totally unsuitable for the Australian market? Without Opel, GM can only supply Daewoo vehicles which haven't satisfied the Australian tastes.
    GM seems to be very much like the Roman Empire, and it's a lot closer to the end than the beginning.

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Correct Alexander, it was merely supposition.
    If I was a car maker and I had an overseas market where has existed strong brand loyalty, why wouldn't I want them to sell my vehicles, rather than but them from a competitor?
    You mean to ask, why doesn't PSA Groupe buy its own Australian distribution network...
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    Hi
    I thought that the main problem with Aussie sale of US cars was the problem of them never being designed for a RHD option. That was never considered in the US design brief in the past. So making some small numbers with RHD is not a simple or cheap operation and they just do not bother.
    Jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Correct Alexander, it was merely supposition.
    If I was a car maker and I had an overseas market where has existed strong brand loyalty, why wouldn't I want them to sell my vehicles, rather than but them from a competitor?
    Dave
    obviously it all gets down to the actual agreement, but i would imagine that as Holden is not part of the deal, GM would retain ownership of the IP and tooling for Holden cars. as GM has been losing money (right?) in europe, i am guessing that Holdens are being/ were planned to be manufactured there simply because that was the best place to do it. i also assume that that the tooling was shipped there from australia, and in any case could be moved elsewhere to other GM factories.

    is that all fair comment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post

    ...

    i also assume that that the tooling was shipped there from australia, and in any case could be moved elsewhere to other GM factories.

    is that all fair comment?
    alexander you appear to be assuming that the current Holden is going to continue to be manufactured - just not in Australia. If this were the case, it would not be going to Germany, but to somewhere with the cheapest possible labour. The attached article (with photos) makes it plain to me that the only thing "Holden" about the 2018 model is the badge! They are even going to be front wheel drive . Also the photos appear to be of a finished car, not just a clay model.

    http://www.caradvice.com.au/504474/2...family-hauler/

    In fact Holdens will continue to be manufactured in Australia until October 20th - which leaves very little time to pack up the factory, ship it overseas, and reinstall it in time to produce a 2018 model. I think it far more likely that you will be able to pick up the Holden 'tooling' fairly cheaply from the scrap metal merchant nearest the Holden factory(s)!!!

    Cheers

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  19. #119
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Some seem to forget that every "Holden" ever manufactured in Australia was based on a design from somewhere else. Holden was a body builder originally but since 1948, at least, it has only been a badge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    alexander you appear to be assuming that the current Holden is going to continue to be manufactured - just not in Australia. If this were the case, it would not be going to Germany, but to somewhere with the cheapest possible labour.

    Alec
    that is true, but i got the idea regarding the future from an article you posted earlier in this thread!, which said that there had been some assurance given that the C would be manufactured by Opel, for GM, after 2018. as you say, however, that is plainly not the case.

    i imagine that irrespective that the new commodore is essentially an Opel, GM would be retaining the ownership/co-ownership of the current models, after the sale of Opel to PSA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Some seem to forget that every "Holden" ever manufactured in Australia was based on a design from somewhere else. Holden was a body builder originally but since 1948, at least, it has only been a badge.
    there is quite a difference between "based on", and "it has only been a badge".
    as i understand it, the commodore has to some degree, sometimes been based on other models, but has never been a rebadged anything. plus the 2 door commodore was itself rebadged as a different car in america when exported there.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    there is quite a difference between "based on", and "it has only been a badge".
    as i understand it, the commodore has to some degree, sometimes been based on other models, but has never been a rebadged anything. plus the 2 door commodore was itself rebadged as a different car in america when exported there.
    The Opel Commodore was the basis for the first Australian version, but you are probably too young to remember....*PSA Is In Talks With General Motors To Deepen Their Partnership - Source-opel-commodore.jpg
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  23. #123
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    um yes kim, i do recall it, and it was "based on" designs from somewhere else, with substantial changes, and not just a re-badged car from elsewhere. or in other words, your example argues against your own assertion.

  24. #124
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    The Australia commodore had a different engine for a start.

    Opel were fitting 2.5 OHC engines and Australians got that POS red/ blue engine lump of cast iron.
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    indeed. further, it seems that the aussie Commodore was actually constructed from two different Opels. some badge! to be fair, it seems the resulting car was larger (and no doubt heavier), so the 6 was probably warranted for power, and required for marketability. i would think the ability to house a V8 was also considered necessary for marketability / brand image.

    Introduced in October 1978,[1] the VB Commodore development covered a period with the effects of the 1973 oil crisis still being felt.[2] Hence, when Holden decided to replace the successful full-size HZ Kingswood with a new model line, they wanted the new car to be smaller and more fuel efficient.[3] Originally, Holden looked at developing a new WA Kingswood, however, this project was later dismissed.[4] With no replacement in development, Holden looked towards Opel for providing the foundations of the VB, basing it loosely on the four-cylinder Rekord E bodyshell with the front grafted on from the Opel Senator A, both constructed using GM's V-body platform.[5] This change was necessitated to accommodate the larger Holden six- and eight-cylinder engines.[6] Holden also adopted the name "Commodore" from Opel, which had been using the name since 1967.[7] Opel went on to use Holden's Rekord-Senator hybrid as a foundation for its new generation Commodore C, slotting in between the two donor models.[8]
    the irony of kim's picture above is that the Opel Commodore in that photo isnt the basis for the aussie commodore; it is Opel using the rekord/senator hybrid created as the aussie commodore. so in fact, the Opel was a badge version of the aussie car, not the other way around. i note that it had two inline 6 motor options as an Opel.
    Last edited by alexander; 17th March 2017 at 02:46 PM.
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