*PSA Is In Talks With General Motors To Deepen Their Partnership - Source - Page 2
  • Register
  • Help
Page 2 of 7 First 123456 ... Last
Results 26 to 50 of 157
Like Tree32Likes

Thread: *PSA Is In Talks With General Motors To Deepen Their Partnership - Source

  1. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    It's sad, alexander, when political considerations outweigh the profitability of any commercial enterprise.....capitalism has been defeated!
    as you talk so often about it, you may care to note that "capitalism" is where the means of production are privately owned, rather than State owned. as virtually all countries have been a decades long process of divesting themselves of the ownership of the means of production, i would say capitalism has a resounding victor.

    Advertisement

  2. #27
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    16,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    as you talk so often about it, you may care to note that "capitalism" is where the means of production are privately owned, rather than State owned. as virtually all countries have been a decades long process of divesting themselves of the ownership of the means of production, i would say capitalism has a resounding victor.
    I know that you are one who rarely misses the point but it appears that State considerations seem to have well and truly found their way into this argument. The Workers of all the involved companies are putting pressure on their political overseers to act in their "national" interest against that of the capitalists who own the means of production. Any result in this particular instance other than that which the capitalists say they require is a defeat for capitalism.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  3. #28
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,051

    Default

    French unions and socialists have a history of shooting their own feet in the name of national interest. Keep watching to see where any defeat will land.

  4. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Any result in this particular instance other than that which the capitalists say they require is a defeat for capitalism.
    i understand what you are getting at, but you have not addressed what i said. you are equating "capitalism" with "unfettered markets". they are not the same thing. "capitalism" is just a system where private interests own capital as opposed to the State. that it is hugely regulated does not change that.

  5. #30
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    16,388

    Default

    Surely, alexander, Capitalism can ONLY really flourish in an unfettered market. That's why we now have Globalisation........
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  6. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    no. capitalism is where private interests own capital, as opposed to the State owning it. that is true irrespective of the level to which markets are regulated. there is nothing unregulated or unfettered about "globalisation". every element of it occurs in some country, and is subject to national regulation.

    as with many ideas people bang on about, "globalisation" is largely a fiction. it is, in fact, nothing more than alot of trade. well, we have always had trade. remember marco polo? ie the 13th century? the idea of globalisation is simply expressing a conspicuous increase in global trade in the last couple of decades. you could just as well call it 'increased trade with china'. that is a little whimsical; global trade as also been assisted by a vast amount of cooperation among nations, and huge technological advances.

    anyway, mini lecture aside, the only unfettered aspect of globalisation is that its economic impact on individual countries is beyond the control of those countries. despite all the regulation.

    kim, you have an incorrect understanding of "capitalism". you are thinking of the concept of laissez-faire, which does not exist nor has even remotely done so since the 19th century.

  7. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    anyway, on the topic, i must say i am surprised to see PSA actually having an interest in buying these brands.
    despite cars becoming somewhat more generic over time, the look and feel of GM brands seems to be at odds with PSA.
    perhaps i misunderstand it, and PSA would be happy to buy a different sort of car culture to have more presence in markets where they do well? the problem is that vauxhall and opel dont seem to do well anywhere, so what exactly is being purchased?

  8. #33
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,051

    Default

    Design and development cost per vehicle made.

  9. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    i get the idea of more efficient use of invested capital through scale.
    i get the idea of spreading development costs through common platforms and technology.

    what i dont get is how that works when you buy into an existing brand with a potentially distinct culture and commit to operating it separately. then, seems to me, you simply own a separate non performing brand with few of the advantages of scale, if any.

  10. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    Vauxhall pension black hole could be stumbling block for GM sale to Peugeot

    Alan Tovey, industry editor
    20 FEBRUARY 2017 • 3:00PM

    A funding black hole in the Vauxhall pension scheme could prove a huge hurdle to General Motors’ hopes of selling its European businesses to Peugeot.

    GM is in talks with Peugeot-owner PSA Groupe about a potential $2bn (£1.6bn) sale of the Vauxhall and Opel brands, with executives from both automotive groups meeting with government ministers about the deal.

    However, an estimated £1bn deficit in the Vauxhall pension scheme could scupper the sale.

    Pensions expert John Ralfe called the deficit on the 15,000-member retirement scheme a “potential dealbreaker” with one of the companies having to swallow the funding gap to get a deal away.

    He added: “The last accounts, which are two years old, show the scheme had £1.8bn of assets but £2.6bn of liabilities, and with the way the markets have moved since, it’s likely that the deficit has grown.”

    There are fears Vauxhall’s plants in Ellesmere Port and Luton, which employ 4,500 staff, could be under threat as a result of a deal with the French group. PSA is expected to try to cut production over-capacity and seek cost savings if it buys GM’s European business - which has not made a profit since 2009.

    PSA, which is part-owned by the French state, is unlikely to scrap jobs there, while in Germany, where the bulk of GM’s 38,000 European staff are based, politicians and unions have vowed to protect jobs.

    Complications arising out of Brexit such as the potential for the imposition of trade tariffs and higher costs caused by the weaker pound - could make by shutting the UK plants the easiest solution for PSA if it lands a purchase.

    The Ellesmere Port plant makes the Astra and last year turned out 120,000 of the cars with more than 80pc of them being exported, while the Luton plant builds Vivaro vans, with more than 70,000 of them rolling off its production line a year.

    If the UK plants were being targeted for closure, Mr Ralfe said PSA would not want to take on the Vauxhall pension scheme with no business behind it to support the retirement scheme.

    “GM might have to add it to its US pension scheme, but any such deal would require the agreement of Britain’s pensions regulator,” he added.

    Funding problems have stymied other deals recently, the most notable of which was Tata’s attempt to sell its UK steel business. The company eventually abandoned a wholesale disposal because would-be buyers balked at the £15bn pension scheme which has a £1bn gap.

    Developments over the pension scheme came with the the UK government scheduling further meetings with Peugeot to try to win assurances about British jobs.

    Last week Business Secretary Greg Clarke travelled to Paris for talks, and it is understood that Theresa May could meet with Peugeot boss Carlos Tavares this week.

    Union bosses are also trying to get clarity over what the future holds for their members, with Unite general-secretary Len McCluskey trying to set up talks with Mr Tavares on Friday.

    Despite the concerns about the potential for job losses, a spokesman for the German government said he and his colleagues were in close contact with British counterparts, saying they would not be played off each other by the companies.

    But this assurance followed what have been described as "encouraging signals" that jobs at GM's Opel factories in Germany will be preserved.

  11. #36
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    16,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    no. capitalism is where private interests own capital, as opposed to the State owning it. that is true irrespective of the level to which markets are regulated. there is nothing unregulated or unfettered about "globalisation". every element of it occurs in some country, and is subject to national regulation.

    as with many ideas people bang on about, "globalisation" is largely a fiction. it is, in fact, nothing more than alot of trade. well, we have always had trade. remember marco polo? ie the 13th century? the idea of globalisation is simply expressing a conspicuous increase in global trade in the last couple of decades. you could just as well call it 'increased trade with china'. that is a little whimsical; global trade as also been assisted by a vast amount of cooperation among nations, and huge technological advances.

    anyway, mini lecture aside, the only unfettered aspect of globalisation is that its economic impact on individual countries is beyond the control of those countries. despite all the regulation.

    kim, you have an incorrect understanding of "capitalism". you are thinking of the concept of laissez-faire, which does not exist nor has even remotely done so since the 19th century.
    Regardless of your spin, I can advise that I was born and brought up in an era that was nothing like an unfettered or laissez faire "level playing field". Australia in the past (and any other nation) set it's own monetary value, imposed tariffs and taxes and favoured different countries by playing with either their exchange rate or a tariff.
    It worked wonderfully, everyone had a job or two, a decent income and were able to buy everything made here in Australia. Unlike the world's current brilliant globalised system, where the level playing field always slopes upward from Australia and even our farmers are having to compete with imports transported from half a world away. What a wonderful system we have now! You'll never know what it's like to be part of a thriving, competitive manufacturing nation, because the fiscal pinheads that have not only ruined our future have virtually ensured we'll become a nation of Baristas, Jim's Mowers and stock-market speculators.
    GRAHAM WALLIS likes this.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  12. #37
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    16,480

    Default

    Don't rubbish "Jim's Mowing".

    I went to school with the CEO AKA Jim Penman.

    He has Phd in History and branched in lawn mowing when he was unable to find a job.

    A multi multi millionaire now.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  13. #38
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    16,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    A multi multi millionaire now.
    Like each and everyone of his "franchisees"?

    Pyramid selling is still here and still works for some!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  14. #39
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    16,480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Like each and everyone of his "franchisees"?

    Pyramid selling is still here and still works for some!
    I believe each and every franchisee willingly entered into the agreement.

    And the master franchiser is in effective control. There are no Sales targets nor sales incentives. And nor are franchise owners allowed to start new sub franchises. So it's no "pyramid scheme".

    They can sell their franchise of course.

    The franchisees are simply a bunch of dudes who delude themselves that working a franchise makes more money and gives a better lifestyle than working as an employee.

    A classic case of "think ahead" and a (hard learned) lesson that if you seriously believe in buying franchise, it's best to start your own business.
    Last edited by robmac; 21st February 2017 at 08:33 PM.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  15. #40
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Armidale
    Posts
    1,741

    Default

    A little example - we used a Jim's Building Inspections franchisee last year (to inspect a property - surprise, surprise) - yes there is such a thing, Jim Penman is obviously still thinking of new areas to expand into. The report was not very good quality, but sufficed for our needs - anyway, as a result if that transaction, he now has our email address.

    Just received an email from him, but I don't think he is aware that he sent it! Looks like his computer is infected, and a trojan/bot or whatever has gone through his address book and sent something nasty to all his customers.

    A bigger company would hopefully have someone a bit more professional in the office, who would hopefully have decent anti-virus/security software on their computer(s). Granted anyone starting their own business faces even more challenges, but by making it seem easy, I suspect Jim's might attract a few tradesmen who are not well equipped to actually run their own business.

    Cheers

    Alec

  16. #41
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,347

    Default

    Vauxhall workers get little comfort from Peugeot boss as car maker posts record results

    23 FEBRUARY 2017 • 9:45AM
    Vauxhall workers have been offered little comfort from Peugeot about the long-term future of their jobs if the French car-maker seals a deal to buy General Motors’ European arm.

    Peugeot boss Carlos Tavares said that GM’s Vauxhall and Opel brands are “burning through €1bn of cash a year and have been making red ink for 10 years… the situation is not sustainable”.

    Mr Tavares said he has been holding “remarkably mature discussions” with staff, unions and politicians, in countries where Vauxhall and Opel have a presence, about what the future of the marques are, hinting that redundancies could be down the road.


    Speaking as Peugeot reported annual results which showed record profitability, Mr Tavares said if a purchase were agreed, his company would honour existing employment deals but refused to be drawn beyond this.

    “We want to help. If you step back, everyone has an interest in making this deal work,” he said. “But everyone knows this situation with Opel is not going to last for ever.”


    Referring mainly to Opel with only passing references to Vauxhall, Mr Tavares added: “They have a problem, they are not making money. Opel knows this will not last forever, the companies have an interest in solving this. Eventually they will be too small and will need support from someone.”

    Apparently dismissing the idea that Vauxhall and Opel could operate without a larger parent, he added: “They will need access to new technology, drive trains, autonomous systems - how are they going to get that if they stand alone? They need a solution.”

    There are concerns the 4,500 staff employed making Vauxhall vehicles at plants in Ellesmere Port and Luton would be in the firing line if a deal were agreed. That's because Britain’s labour laws make it easier to get rid of employees as part of an enlarged company that is seeking to save money and boost profitability.

    However, Mr Tavares did seem to offer a small hope for Vauxhall staff, saying that many customers were put off buying French cars.

    Adding the “iconic” Vauxhall brand to Peugeot’s stable would open up new sales opportunities for his company. French cars have a historic reputation for being unreliable among British buyers.

    He added that Opel, which has the vast bulk of its 38,000 European staff in Germany, where its technical centre is located, benefits from a “halo effect” from Germany’s reputation for quality engineering.

    Peugeot’s annual sales of €54bn was down 1.1pc on the previous year. Operating profit was 18pc higher at €3.25bn. Both were ahead of analysts expectations and highlight the turnaround under Mr Tavares, after Peugeot - which also owns the Citroen brand - came close to bankruptcy in 2014 and had to be bailed out by the French government, which holds a 14pc stake in the business.

  17. #42
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Brisbane/Australia
    Posts
    1,681

    Default

    If anyone in Vauxhall or Opel think their jobs are safe they must be ingesting vast quantities of some pretty strong shit. Either alcohol or legal or illegal drugs.
    If the deal goes ahead and 30% of the existing numbers are still there in 3 years it will be astonishing.
    Regardless of what the governments or unions negotiate.
    PSA are buying brands, not products.
    If the products were right then Opel/Vauxhall wouldn't be for the chop.
    jaahn likes this.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  18. #43
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lauderdale, Tasmania
    Posts
    2,866

    Default

    The German papers are saying that that change is necessary as under GM with its continued losses restructuring was inevitable. To have Tavares do it is more palatable as he has demonstrated a spectacular turn around of PSA without major redundancies.
    What they are buying is economies of scale. They will be able to exploit what they have already started with the previous GM relationship, which is to market all the brands based on common platforms. They expect 2 billion euros of cost reduction by 2020 just by common parts and larger purchase volumes, which will turn the P&L around, something GM couldn't do. They can handle the politics by reducing employment numbers through natural attrition and change plants from assembly to component manufacture with greater flexiblity. The Opel Zafira is already made in a Peugeot factory in France with excess capacity and Peugeot work is being done in a Spanish factory of Opel.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 24th February 2017 at 09:23 AM.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  19. #44
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lauderdale, Tasmania
    Posts
    2,866

    Default

    Little has been said about Spain but this is a revealing article from Reuters.
    http://in.reuters.com/article/opel-m...-idINKBN1621ZF
    It seems that Catcus sales (it is made in Spain) have fizzled and the PSA factory is working way below capacity. They have a choice there of shutting at least one factory, raising the utilisation of the others but Spain is their lowest cost/highest productivity location in Europe. It must be tempting to shift more German/UK/France expansion to Spain and at least hold the present capacity in those countries or diminish them.
    It continues to amuse me that this French car forum centres its interest around brands which are owned by global or at least transnational organisations for whom the French market is a modest proportion of sales.
    On this subject, Ghosn is resigning as CEO of Nissan in favour of a Japanese protegé in order, as Chairman of Renault, Nissan and Mitsubishi Motors, to maximlse the advantages of their "Alliance".
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  20. #45
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lauderdale, Tasmania
    Posts
    2,866

    Default

    The latest 'leak' on this subject in the German press is that GM want a non-compete clause in the agreement that prevents PSA/Opel from selling Opel models in the USA, China and Russia. In all this I haven't seen a mention of Australia.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  21. #46
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,597

    Default

    Holden is unknown outside of Australia and NZ. It is an orphan brand with a large dealership network.

    Globally, Australia doesn't have a lot of choice. It can't get US made product (most of which isn't engineered for Australian steerage), there's the 'Daewoo' stuff (that most Australians don't like), and there's the Euro stuff, which due to the Vauxhall marque, is Australia ready.

    As a side point, did you guys know that the word for 'railway station' in Russian is vauxhall? Rumour has it that Russian engineers went to London in the early part of the 20th century and transited through Vauxhall Station. They didn't realise 'Vauxhall' was the name of the station and thought it was the generic word for 'railway station'.

    When they built their own stations they called them vauxhall (pronounced 'vok-zal')

    So there, you've even learnt some Russian today!

    Dave
    jaahn and COL like this.
    2008 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi break
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  22. #47
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,051

    Default

    A nice tale, but not so. Pavlovsk station at the end of the first line from St Petersburg was named for a pleasure garden (Vauxhall transliterated into Cyrillic)

  23. #48
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lauderdale, Tasmania
    Posts
    2,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Holden is unknown outside of Australia and NZ. It is an orphan brand with a large dealership network.

    Globally, Australia doesn't have a lot of choice. It can't get US made product (most of which isn't engineered for Australian steerage), there's the 'Daewoo' stuff (that most Australians don't like), and there's the Euro stuff, which due to the Vauxhall marque, is Australia ready.

    As a side point, did you guys know that the word for 'railway station' in Russian is vauxhall? Rumour has it that Russian engineers went to London in the early part of the 20th century and transited through Vauxhall Station. They didn't realise 'Vauxhall' was the name of the station and thought it was the generic word for 'railway station'.

    When they built their own stations they called them vauxhall (pronounced 'vok-zal')

    So there, you've even learnt some Russian today!

    Dave
    That is true and you may have noticed if you have travelled on theTrans Siberian that the gables of the station buildings have deep drainage grooves each side. They are very useful for clearing heavy weights of snow but they were actually designed there by another group of Russian architects touring England who were amazed to discover motorised stations bearing this feature . вокзал
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  24. #49
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,051

    Default

    The вокзал business is a myth based on the name of the first station. I'm suspicious about Siberian gables too. I just looked at 30 or so photos and can't see anything remotely English. The Russians are the snow experts. More info please.

  25. #50
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lauderdale, Tasmania
    Posts
    2,866

    Default

    You are looking at the wrong Vauxhalls
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

Page 2 of 7 First 123456 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 1 guests)

  1. Armidillo

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •