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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Default Durty Diesel?

    Heard this morning that an Australian motoring journo living in Europe claimed that the slow progress of European small diesels onto our market was because our fuel is highly suspect... or very dirty... full of crud...something like that.

    And that modern fine diesel injectors don't like this kind of thing, they need more cleaning, they play up, get blocked etc.

    Anyone with a modern Pug or Cit diesel having any trouble of this kind or is it all a load of codswallop?

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    Think they might be referring to the high sulphur content that Aussie diesel supposedly has. There are moves to reduce the sulphur content by a set date (was it 2005 sometime?) in preparation for more diesel cars on the market.

    I've seen signs at servo's in Sydney advertising cleaner diesel so maybe it wil become mainstream sooner or later.

    Did I read correctly that the highest selling BMW 3-Series in the UK is now the 330d? Thats the sort of thing I wouldn't mind seeing here

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    From what i have read, the high sulfur content stuffs up the injectors and some of the particle filters on the exhausts. Some of the highly tuned diesels motors have not been an option for Aussie motorists.

    My understanding is that removing the sulphur from diesel adds another step int he refining process, which of coarse adds cost, so the refining companies have left it in, even though it is one of the nasties in diesel forming sulfur dioxide on combustion.

    On a slightly different note, Biodiesels and vegetable oils do not contain sulfur and run fine in the modern diesel engines with very low emitions. Conversions can be done reletively inexpensively (to account for the viscosity). I hear oil from the chip fryer at your local fish and chip shop is a good fuel. Have a search on the internet - it makes interesting reading.......
    Last edited by The Pugmeister; 6th April 2004 at 12:30 PM.
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    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pugmeister
    On a slightly different note, Biodiesels and vegetable oils do not contain sulfur and run fine in the modern diesel engines with very low emitions. Conversions can be done reletively inexpensively (to account for the viscosity). I hear oil from the chip fryer at your local fish and chip shop is a good fuel. Have a search on the internet - it makes interesting reading.......
    Sure does. Even more fun making the stuff. The cars run great on it. Back to the previous topic I have heard it said that if Europe ran out of diesel and Australia has all the diesel fuel available the Europeans would do without. The sulphur actually protected the injectors and pumps, much like lead was used in the petrol. Biodiesel is used as a lubricity additive in France to get back the lubricity lost with ULSD.
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    we own a semi modern 505 SRDT which runs fine on any of the stuff thats comeing out of the pumps now. sure we get variations in performance from pump to pump but no big hastles

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    Interesting stuff about the lubricity Neil. When I was buying some Flashlube for our 504 recently, I saw they had a diesel version of flashlube which improves fuel lubricity, makes the diesel atomise better, cleans injectors etc etc.

    I thought what the heck I'll buy it and see what happens. Low and behold, the small amount of smoke that one of our trucks blew before has disappeared, and it seems to have heaps more power that it did... as in hills it used to go up at 30km/hr with a particular load on it now does at 45 or 50km/hr with the same load on.

    Any idea why that would be? I've always been doubtful of additives but this one seems to be a real winner.

    It could be worth trying in diesel Pugs which is why I thought I'd go a bit off topic.

    Derek.

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    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    Interesting stuff about the lubricity Neil. When I was buying some Flashlube for our 504 recently, I saw they had a diesel version of flashlube which improves fuel lubricity, makes the diesel atomise better, cleans injectors etc etc.

    I thought what the heck I'll buy it and see what happens. Low and behold, the small amount of smoke that one of our trucks blew before has disappeared, and it seems to have heaps more power that it did... as in hills it used to go up at 30km/hr with a particular load on it now does at 45 or 50km/hr with the same load on.

    Any idea why that would be? I've always been doubtful of additives but this one seems to be a real winner.
    Derek.
    Probably helped clean the tip of the injector, allowing the fuel to atomise better with a better injection pattern, better fuel burn therefore more power and less smoke as the fuel is burning fully. Black smoke is caused primarily by soot from inefficiently burnt fuel.
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    Default Diesel

    The gumnut took the sulphur out of diesel up here years ago and the only advice I got from the peug club here was to put about a capful of motor oil or two-stroke oil in the tank every now and then. My 504 and 505 diesels went fine.
    Alas the crankshaft broke on the 505 and it went to Peugatory.

    I have related elsewhere about the high taxes on Diesels here to "keep those foul smelling and polluting monsters from our roads" (Enviroment minister). The road taxes are about 4-5 times what a petrol car is, but diesel at the pump is only about $1.65 compared to petrol at about $1.95 per litre (95 lead free). It takes many miles to come out even.

    Gumnut here does not even want to entertain the idea that newer diesels can actually be less polluting than petrol cars and even the other alternatives that are able to be used with a diesel engine. It's a tax question as usual and we can only hope that the EU finally puts a stop to this discrimination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Filldebin
    The gumnut took the sulphur out of diesel up here years ago and the only advice I got from the peug club here was to put about a capful of motor oil or two-stroke oil in the tank every now and then. My 504 and 505 diesels went fine.
    Alas the crankshaft broke on the 505 and it went to Peugatory.

    I have related elsewhere about the high taxes on Diesels here to "keep those foul smelling and polluting monsters from our roads" (Enviroment minister). The road taxes are about 4-5 times what a petrol car is, but diesel at the pump is only about $1.65 compared to petrol at about $1.95 per litre (95 lead free). It takes many miles to come out even.

    Gumnut here does not even want to entertain the idea that newer diesels can actually be less polluting than petrol cars and even the other alternatives that are able to be used with a diesel engine. It's a tax question as usual and we can only hope that the EU finally puts a stop to this discrimination.
    So I'd be right in assuming that the two vehicle manufacturers based in Sweden (aka Ford and GM!) do not manufacture diesel engined vehicles? Therefore the gumnut (love that terminology) does all it can to prevent market erosion of the two vehicle manufacturers. (Those manufacturers being two names when mentioned here get shot down in howls of protest).

    So in reality it has SFA to do with pollution in Sweden?
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    No, there are most certainly diesel Volvos and Saabs. The Volvo D5 engine is extremely popular in the UK.


    So if diesel is so dirty, why does the UK and France go out of its way to get people to buy them? They are taxing people on Co2 emissions, and unless I've read all the brit magazines wrong, the diesels are better at this than petrol...

    Plus diesels are way more fuel efficient, and when you're paying £0.79 per litre of petrol...
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    So I'd be right in assuming that the two vehicle manufacturers based in Sweden (aka Ford and GM!) do not manufacture diesel engined vehicles? Therefore the gumnut (love that terminology) does all it can to prevent market erosion of the two vehicle manufacturers. (Those manufacturers being two names when mentioned here get shot down in howls of protest).

    So in reality it has SFA to do with pollution in Sweden?
    Ignorance is bliss isn't it...

    You know you should be very careful what you say about these special cars when you have people like me around Very hard to get away with peddling mistruths about the Swedes

    Yes! Both have diesels, it's a fact!

    Volvo has been offering diesels for decades. Various Renault diesels for the small cars, VAG diesels for the large cars. A few years ago they released their own inhouse D5 engine which is very well regarded in Europe.

    SAAB also has diesels, but their GM ones and from what I gather from overseas reports, unfortunately they're nothing special at all (GM diesels).

    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    So if diesel is so dirty, why does the UK and France go out of its way to get people to buy them? They are taxing people on Co2 emissions, and unless I've read all the brit magazines wrong, the diesels are better at this than petrol...
    One could probably say that Diesel fuel is, at a basic fundamental level, more dirty than petrol. The problem stems from the cancerous particulates it creates. With a particulate filter, you alleviate this and take the benefits of their lower fuel consumption & hence lower C02 emissions. Here is something from Volvo's site.




    Particulate emissions from diesels are higher than from petrol engines; however, fuel evaporation is considerably lower. In the context of EPS analysis, therefore, it is more important to measure the particulate emissions rather than the evaporation from the car.

    BEST AND WORST CASES

    The best case is when no particulate matter whatever is emitted.

    The worst case corresponds to the limit (0.1 g/km) specified in current European legislation.<SUP>1</SUP>

    COMPARISON NOTICE

    Please note that diesel engines and petrol engines should be compared with regards to their common indicators only.

    A comparison cannot be based on essentially different indicators. The indicators are not designed to answer questions like "is a 70%-level emission of particulates better than a 60%-level evaporation of hydrocarbons?".

    For this reason, comparisons between diesel and petrol engines with regards to their propellant specific indicators used in this EPS, that is evaporation of hydrocarbons for petrol engines and particulate emissions for diesel engines, are deceptive.

    Footnotes:1. EU Directive 70/220 EC, amendment 1999/102.


    This is why the new Ford-PSA 2.0 16V is not Euro 4 compliant without a particulate filter - only Euro 3. Euro 4 cars are subject to lower taxes. These emission standards take into account several types of emissions, not just C02.

    Diesel's advantage stems from CO2 emissions. It's simple - diesels use less fuel than petrols on average, so as a result create less C02. Basically, C02 emissions are proportionate to a vehicle's fuel consumption.

    To compare, lets compare two similar Volvo engines. From the Environmental Product Declaration site. First manufacturer in the world to have an environmental product declaration, when it comes to the environment, they're one of the most progressive out there

    The S60 2.4 20V vs the D5 - similar power outputs (125kW vs 120kW). I've also included CNG (compressed natural gas) & LPG figures for the petrol engine. It's an interesting comparison.

    CO (carbon monoxide)
    Petrol: 0.050g/km
    CNG: 0.283g/km
    Diesel: 0.348g/km
    LPG: 0.676g/km

    NOx (nitrogen oxide)
    LPG: 0.018g/km
    Petrol: 0.020g/km
    CNG: 0.037g/km
    Diesel: 0.443g/km

    C02 (carbon dioxide)
    Petrol: 215g/km
    LPG: 186g/km
    Diesel: 171g/km
    CNG: 161g/km

    Fuel Consumption: (EU Combined figures)
    LPG: 11.5l/100km.
    Petrol: 9.0l/100km.
    CNG: 9.0l/100km.
    Diesel: 6.5l/100km.

    Remember all these fuels have different calorific contents, so fuel consumption is not necessarily the best benchmark on which to compare environmental friendliness.

    Also note diesel engines don't really have hydrocarbons to worry about. Pollution also arises from the fuel cap.

    If you want to compare Petrol & Diesel engines on various indicators, just click here.




    The highest proportion of the environmental impact, local and regional, generated by petrol-engined vehicles in traffic is attributable to emissions of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides from the exhaust gases. These emissions may be harmful in high concentrations under unfavourable traffic and climatic conditions, for example when an inversion is present.

    When exposed to sunlight in hot weather, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides combine to form ground-level ozone, which not only damages vegetation, but causes respiratory ailments in humans, especially children.

    Nitrogen oxides also contribute to eutrophication (an excess of nutrients in lakes and rivers which favours plant growth and deprives aquatic life of oxygen) and acidification.
    The emissions have fallen by up to 99% since the three-way catalytic converter was introduced by Volvo in the 70s.

    These three pollutants are controlled by legislation in almost every country in the world. Statutory limits are lowest in California, where the strictest provisions are contained in the ZEV (Zero Emission Vehicle) standard<SUP>1</SUP>.

    Diagnostic function helps to reduce emission levels

    All engine variants with ratings of 140 and 170 hp comply with the provisions of the European Euro 4 standard, which are comparable to the Californian ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) requirements. This has been achieved by locating the catalytic converter closer to the engine, increasing its working temperature and improving the efficiency of conversion of hazardous emissions.

    The design of the exhaust manifold has also been improved. Furthermore, improved engine management systems have enabled emissions to be reduced during gearchanging and acceleration. All Volvo engines comply with Euro 3 and LEV (Low Emission Vehicle), and all are equipped with European On-Board Diagnostics (EOBD), which indicate when the emission levels are too high. In this event, the car should be brought to a Volvo dealer for attention. In 2003, the Volvo diesel engines were also equipped with EOBD.

    BEST AND WORST CASES

    The best case is represented by a car which emits none of these pollutants (Zero Emission Vehicle).

    The worst case is represented by a car complying with Euro 2, equivalent to 2.2 g/km of carbon monoxide, and 0.5 g/km of hydrocarbons plus nitrogen oxides<SUP>2</SUP>. Euro 3 and Euro 4 statutory limits are intermediate to the best and worst case.

    Diesel engines must comply with limits of 0.64 g/km for carbon monoxide and 0.56 g/km for hydrocarbons plus nitrogen oxides to comply with Euro 3.


    Footnotes:
    1.California Code of Regulations Title 13.
    2. EU Directive 70/220 EC, amendment 2002/80/EC. Euro 2 and Euro 3 values are not directly comparable due to modification of the test procedure prior to the introduction of the latter.



    Interesting, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Did I read correctly that the highest selling BMW 3-Series in the UK is now the 330d? Thats the sort of thing I wouldn't mind seeing here
    CAR mag went so far to say that it was the best car in the (real) world.

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    Default Diesel GM and Ford in Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    So I'd be right in assuming that the two vehicle manufacturers based in Sweden (aka Ford and GM!) do not manufacture diesel engined vehicles? Therefore the gumnut (love that terminology) does all it can to prevent market erosion of the two vehicle manufacturers. (Those manufacturers being two names when mentioned here get shot down in howls of protest).

    So in reality it has SFA to do with pollution in Sweden?

    I can only really talk about what I see here and the technical niceties as explained in another post are very interesting and present another picture.
    If you are referring to the GM and Ford products built in Sweden then that is really the Saab , now GM, and the Volvo cars, now Ford (not Trucks which is still Volvo but combined with Renault trucks and Mack in US and others). I don't think that this owner structure is well known.
    Years ago here up to about 1992 or 93 there was a kilometre tax on diesels that was payable yearly and was based on the readings from the Halda kilometre recorder fitted to all diesel cars. This recorder was read at the yearly roadworthy by the gumnut man and the tax of about 2 or three crowns (40-60 cents)per 10 kilometres was made payable within a couple of weeks. Mainly farmers drove these and Volvo had a diesel that was based on a Volkswagen engine, I had one of these and it was slow. Saab had no diesels but the main cars seemed to be the Mercs, VWs, Peugeots and some other odd makes.
    Many people Including the Gumnut man at the RWC place said that the Volvo and Saab people have pressured the Gumnut to make sure that diesels wee not to be allowed to be easier to use in Sweden. (Who knows how true that was, but many different people said it).
    However, both Volvo and Saab have developed Diesel engines in conjuction with their owners and now the ball should start rolling , but IT DON'T!
    Any way I must go out I might write more later about this when time permits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    CAR mag went so far to say that it was the best car in the (real) world.
    Lat year while I was in the UK I had the pleasure of driving a brand new 530D from Surrey to the Goodwood festival of Speed for 2 days in a row. What an incredible engine! My father runs a 406 HDI with is pretty impressive, but the BMW made it feel like a noisey old tractor. It was smoother than a petrol engine and the grunt for overtaking was brilliant.

    We don't get them here as our diesel is not of high enough quality, and the same goes for the new Peugeot V6 diesel. Dad had to replace the cat. in the 406 as it had become completey clogged with crap caused by the shit they call diesel in NZ, and apparently that is not uncommon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    Interesting stuff about the lubricity Neil. When I was buying some Flashlube for our 504 recently, I saw they had a diesel version of flashlube which improves fuel lubricity, makes the diesel atomise better, cleans injectors etc etc.

    I thought what the heck I'll buy it and see what happens. Low and behold, the small amount of smoke that one of our trucks blew before has disappeared, and it seems to have heaps more power that it did... as in hills it used to go up at 30km/hr with a particular load on it now does at 45 or 50km/hr with the same load on.

    Any idea why that would be? I've always been doubtful of additives but this one seems to be a real winner.

    It could be worth trying in diesel Pugs which is why I thought I'd go a bit off topic.

    Derek.
    I have run Lucas fuel additive in my 405 diesel for ages, it definately makes a difference to performance and is claimed to return the lubricity lost in the low sulphur fuels.. Cost is minimal, about $40 for 25000 k's.

    Terry

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    Why are you running Flashlube, Deka? Surely a tin canister is better value? These are also used in diesels, by the way...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Filldebin
    However, both Volvo and Saab have developed Diesel engines in conjuction with their owners
    The D5 was a Volvo designed engine - the modular range of engines was designed to handle diesel. This is one of the reasons why the engine is still modern - all aluminium, multivalve, variable vane turbo, first mass diesel with Bosch Gen II direct injection (runs at 1600BAR, that's over 23,000 psi) etc.

    A D6 was under development, however Ford halted its development. The 2.0D in the S40/V50 is a Ford-PSA diesel.

    SAAB's diesels are GM sourced.

    Here is an interesting article - D5 in Depth.

    A few quotes relevant for the discussion.
    • Half of PSA's engine development team work on diesels.
    Diesel, A Basic Product in Europe

    "While Volvo has had a diesel engine of its own design for only a couple of years, its European competitors have long taken a completely different approach," notes Jan-Erling, citing PSA (Peugeot-CitroŽn) of France as an example:

    "Half of their engine designers work on diesel engine development, compared (so far) with only a small proportion of ours. In terms of production, over half of their cars are diesels. The major diesel engine manufacturers also position their engines more in terms of absolute performance and the diesel is very often included as a basic product. Offering good performance and low fuel consumption, diesels are usually easier to drive on European motorways than petrol-engined models. This is due to the fact that most of these are equipped with normally-aspirated engines, which deliver higher power but develop lower torque. For the same speed, this means more frequent gearchanging Ė and higher fuel consumption."
    • Swedish car taxation - Petrol vs Diesel
    Turbo Tradition

    Jan-Erling Rydquist notes that both Swedish carmakers have a well-established tradition of building turbocharged cars. In the case of petrol-engined models, over 40% of Volvo cars are turbos, while Saabís proportion is even higher.

    "Because of this, Swedish customers are relatively used to the characteristics and advantages of turbo engines Ė they know that turbo cars are easy to drive and develop excellent torque. This means that they should be readily disposed to change over to the diesel on the basis of improved running economy," he smiles.

    On that score, there is much to be said for the diesel, even when the annual mileage is not particularly high. The price of the car is the same, the engine uses perhaps 30% less fuel and diesel oil is about one Swedish krona per litre cheaper. However, the government has to have its say! Whereas the annual vehicle tax on a V70 2.4T is SEK1,700 in Sweden, the diesel owner has to fork out SEK7,000. So why change if half of the gain is eaten up by tax?
    BTW: The 2.4T is a low pressure turbo petrol engine.
    • Resistance to diesel
    Deficient Knowledge

    Nonetheless, the sceptics maintain that the diesel is inferior in terms of performance, noisy and difficult to start in cold climates. The fuel is also particularly dirty, they say, while diesel emissions Ė especially of particulates Ė are higher.

    Jan-Erling Rydquist has heard it all so many times that he doesnít even shake his head, but explains, calmly and factually, what the modern diesel is all about.

    "Public agencies and politicians in Sweden are involved in a politico-technical debate on the subject," he says. "I would say that perhaps 20% of the decision-makers are well informed of the rapid advances in this area; however, there obviously is a degree of mistrust, based primarily on the experience of old diesel technology. This gives rise to many misunderstandings.

    "Just like in the USA, most people follow their gut feelings. This leads them to believe that the diesel is poor in cold weather, that it is noisy, smelly and smoky, and that it pollutes the environment. Diesel technology carries a great number of negative associations and I estimate that 6 out of 10 people are still opposed to it."

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    I just love diesels. I hope they change the diesel fuel here soon so we can get the nice ones from overseas. I want a PSA V6 diesel in a 604
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    Up here in the Sunshine State...we already got the better diesel fuel. However, only BP is the provider, they rated that the new diesel has only 50ppm of sulphur in it c.f. with other diesels and other oil companies which only have <500ppm of Sulphur. The Brisbane City Council is a proud user of the low- sulphur diesel in their buses. Although, I must say that they should keep those diesel engines in tune cos they are blowing A LOT of black smoke!! It is rather hypocritical of them to use low-sulphur diesel while their diesel engines are so badly maintained.

    Diesel gives better economy than petrol cars.....although diesel fuels is not the alternative fuel solution because it is still not a renewable energy source. However, given the fact that we use less fuel required to travel the same distance with diesel, we can say that the rate of us using fossils fuels will be lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BW205

    Diesel gives better economy than petrol cars.....although diesel fuels is not the alternative fuel solution because it is still not a renewable energy source.

    Cheers
    Billy
    However Biodiesel is renewable, and cleaner than diesel with no sulpher, less particulants (ie much less smoke) 93% less carcinogenic products in the exhaust fumes and smells like a fish and chip shop to boot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Ignorance is bliss isn't it...

    You know you should be very careful what you say about these special cars when you have people like me around Very hard to get away with peddling mistruths about the Swedes

    Yes! Both have diesels, it's a fact!

    Volvo has been offering diesels for decades. Various Renault diesels for the small cars, VAG diesels for the large cars. A few years ago they released their own inhouse D5 engine which is very well regarded in Europe.
    Surely this is not surprising given how many Volvo/Saab-Scania trucks & buses there are. Of course they have diesel engines.

    I'm going to tie a few threads together here. If the designed by women theme is real (and not just marketing bullsh!t) at Volvo I'd be surprised if diesel for Volvo became like it is with PSA i.e. 30-50% of cars sold are diesels. I base this on my wife's reaction to the oil slick that is the typical diesel pump at the local servo. Hates it with a passion, and she has never had to touch the pump. Can only speculate her reaction to the slimy stuff on her hands.

    Could it be also that Sweden's punitive tax on diesel cars has something to do with the number of female politicians? Just a thought.

    Barry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BW205
    Diesel gives better economy than petrol cars.....although diesel fuels is not the alternative fuel solution because it is still not a renewable energy source. However, given the fact that we use less fuel required to travel the same distance with diesel, we can say that the rate of us using fossils fuels will be lower.
    I'm not sure that if we all used diesel that we would use less fossil fuel. When they refine crude oil they can decide how much to 'crack' the oil in order to obtain more or less of the different fractions (petrol, diesel, etc). In the process you can get much more than 1 litre of petrol per litre of crude oil used.
    I don't know the actual figures (no doubt someone around here will) but say for the arguement that if you cracked a litre of crude entirely to diesel you get a litre of diesel out whereas if you cracked the crude entirely to petrol you get a litre and a half of petrol. If the diesel engine is a bit more fuel efficient it still dosn't change our use of crude oil.

    I'm still simplifying for the arguement (you break some of the energy yielding bonds to get the shorter chain petrol cf. diesel so diesel may still win slightly) but the jist is there.

    All over I'm a big fan of diesels though.

  23. #23
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    Very interesting stuff, touring. I'd always assumed that it'd take more crude to produce a litre of petrol as the refining process would remove 'impurities', whereas diesel has less removed. I know, a very basic view of refining!

    Stuey (not so refined)

  24. #24
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    the silly thing is the planet can and does grow enough to make fuel to power the vehicles and as such is genuinely renewable where as biodiesel is recycling oil that has already been made

    if it was possible to get the pollies out of the equation there would be a lot less crude bieng used and more oil and fuel would be grown
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    I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating. I read a while back that you can buy rape seed oil (aka Canola) on forecourts in Germany, and VW have a Golf diesel that's made to run on it. I don't know how many servos actually sell it though, and haven't got a clue what you have to do to your vehicle to make it take the stuff. Much like Bio, I assume.

    Stuey

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