French Marque Ownership Results
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  1. #1
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    Default French Marque Ownership Results

    I posted about Peugeot reliability in the Peugeot reliability thread, but I thought we could extend it amongst the various French marques.

    Britain's AutoExpress just published a study, Driver Power 2004, which covers ownership experiences amongst 100 major models. Seeing the UK is one of the biggest markets for French cars, it should be interesting reading for us. I've typed the results for the French vehicles from best to worst ranked - silly PDF won't let me copy & paste under text mode.

    Overall Lexus, Skoda and Porsche filled the top three manufacturer positions. Renault was 26th (no change), Citroen was 27th and Peugeot was 34th, just above Daewoo with the 34th position and the wooden spoon

    Out of interest under specific categories.

    Running Costs
    Best - Honda Jazz 95.2%
    Worst - Subaru Impreza 58.9%

    Comfort
    Best - Volvo S60 94.1%
    Worst - Citroen Saxo - 61.9%

    Performance
    Best - Honda S2000 97.4% (Porsche 911 was third)
    Worst - Peugeot 106 65.2%

    Practicality
    Best - Honda Jazz 99.0%
    Worst - Toyota MR2 48.0%

    Reliability
    Best - Honda Jazz 98.5%
    Worst - Renault Espace 69.9%

    Handling
    Best - Vauxhall VX220 99.1% (Porsche Boxter second)
    Worst - Ford Fiesta 68.9%

    Ease of Driving
    Best - Jaguar XJ 97.1%
    Worst - Peugeot 106 68.8%

    Build Quality
    Best - Honda Jazz 96.7%
    Worst - Citroen Saxo - 60.5%

    Ride Quality
    Best - Jaguar XJ 92.1%
    Worst - Smart City Coupe 56.5%

    Braking
    Best - Honda S2000 95.8%
    Worst - Citroen Saxo 62.1%

    Dealers
    Best - Lexus
    Worst - Alfa Romeo

    Citroen was 28th.
    Renault was 30th.
    Peugeot was 33rd (second last).

    Cars Stopped by the Police
    Most - Porsche 911 - 34%
    Least - Citroen C3/C5 & Honda CRV - 3%

    Top 10 Cars flashed by Speed Cameras
    1. Porsche 911 - 38%
    2. Mercedes E-Class - 34%
    3. Alfa 156 - 33%
    4. Audi TT - 33%
    5. MG ZT - 31%
    6. Mercedes CLK - 31%
    7. Saab 9-3 - 30%
    8. Audi A6 - 30%
    9. Saab 9-5 - 30%
    10. Jaguar XJ - 30%
    Would you like to see more Speed Cameras on the road?
    Yes - 14% (last year 20%)
    No - 86% (last year 80%)

    How do you think UK drivers are treated by the Government?

    Poorly - 82%
    Reasonably - 15%
    Well - 3%

    Interesting eh? I'll post the model results in the next post.

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    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    Model Rankings

    46th - 81.89%. Renault Megane (new).

    A MASSIVE seller in Europe, the new Megane squeezes into the top 50 in our survey thanks to a compelling combination of radical styling, low running costs and suspension and cabin design that makes the French model one of the most comfortable cars in its class. It's not all good news for Renault, though. Our results reveal the Megane is pretty short on practicality and beset by reliability problems (mostly of an electrical nature). And while you're delighted with its ABS, you're less happy with its engine flexibility and performance - an issue that should be addressed by the forthcoming RS model.
    Rankings:

    Braking 6th.
    Comfort 15th.
    Running costs 24th.
    Ride quality 30th.
    Ease of driving 49th.
    Handling 51st.
    Practicality 57th.
    Performance 61st.
    Build quality 69th.
    Reliability 80th.

    Owner's quote: "Apart from a couple of minor niggles, the car has performed brilliantly. Comfortable, with very neat design."

    60th - 80.29%. Citroen Picasso.

    ONCE again, the Picasso MPV proves to be the pick of the Xsara range. Second overall in the practicality category is a fantastic result for Citroen, and combines with another great score in the running costs rankings to make the compact people carrier an obvious choice for small families. You're also taken with the car's supple ride and comfortable seats - but paint a bleaker picture fo the rest of the driving experience. Performance and handling take a real bashing, and you tell us that Citroen could be a lot better built. Nonetheless, nearly half of Picasso owners said it exceeded their expectations.
    Rankings:

    Practicality 2nd.
    Running costs 13th.
    Ride quality 39th.
    Comfort 42nd.
    Braking 59th.
    Reliability 61st.
    Ease of driving 68th.
    Build quality 79th.
    Performance 88th.
    Handling 93rd.

    Owner's quote: "Great flexibility, loads of room. My previous car was longer and wider, but this has more interior space."

    62nd - 79.99%. Citroen C5.

    YOU certainly can't accuse Citroen of treading the middle ground with its C5 family car. With scores ranging from the good (10th in the ride category and 16th for practicality), the bad (73rd for handling and 72nd for ease of use), and the very very ugly (95th for reliability and 84th for build quality), its scorecard is one of the most erratic we have ever seen in Driver Power. Of the 60 per cent of owners who reported problems, an appaling 45 per cent were owing to electrical gremlins. Small wonder more than a quarter of you say that you wouldn't consider buying another C5...
    Rankings:

    Ride quality 10th.
    Practicality 16th.
    Braking 36th.
    Comfort 50th.
    Performance 56th.
    Running costs 56th.
    Ease of driving 72nd.
    Handling 73rd.
    Build quality 84th.
    Reliablity 95th.

    Owner's quote: "Good size and ride, but lacks power and has minor niggles which spoil the enjoyment."

    67th - 79.73%. Renault Scenic (old).

    STRING the Scenic's scorecard together and you'd end up with a chart the shape of the Grand Canyon. Eight years on, it's still virtually unmatched in terms of load-lugging ability, comfort and interior versatility, and a final ranking of 35th for running costs makes it an enticing proposition for families on a budget. Sadly, the package is undermined by two weaknesses - a fragile, underpowered engine line-up and suspension that generates its impressive ride characteristics at the expense of handling composure. Experience tells us that the all-new Scenic, introduced last year, will redress the balance.
    Rankings:

    Practicality 4th.
    Running costs 35th.
    Comfort 43rd.
    Ride quality 46th.
    Braking 67th.
    Build quality 70th.
    Ease of driving 70th.
    Reliability 71st.
    Performance 81st.
    Handling 91st.

    Owner's quote: "Really economical to run - 50mpg-plus from the dCi engine. The Scenic is an excellent tow car."

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    75th - 76.99%. Renault Laguna.

    KEEPING its little brother, the Megane, company in the bottom quarter of the Driver Power charts is the svelte-looking Laguna. As before, you have nothing but good things to say about its ride and comfort, and voted it one of the most practical cars on the market. Unfortunately, the Laguna's reliability record is equally consistent - a frustrated 66 per cent of owners have suffered breakdowns (38 per cent from electrical troubles, 18 from engine failure), leaving it in 96th place. You don't think its engines are particularly up to the job, either, and ranked build quality low enough to vote it 86th. Disappointing.
    Rankings

    Practicality 34th.
    Ride quality 43rd.
    Comfort 44th.
    Braking 65th.
    Running costs 74th.
    Ease of driving 78th.
    Handling 78th.
    Performance 83rd.
    Build quality 86th.
    Reliability 96th.

    Owner's quote: "Looks nice, but reliablity is shocking. This car really lets itself down. I'll never buy a Renault again."

    76th - 76.96%. Renault Clio.

    WITH a few nips and tucks in the correct spots, Renault has managed to keep the Clio ahead of most of the supermini pack. Somewhat predictably, it's the car's build quality that lets the side down. The little French model is generally well liked in most respects, however, scoring a creditable 52nd place for handling, 63rd for performance and 66th in the braking charts. Its small dimensions ultimately limit its use as an everyday car, but the MPV variant, due in September, should address this. A rating of 22nd out of 100 in the running costs category shows the Renault's heart is in the right place.
    Rankings:

    Running costs 22nd.
    Handling 52nd.
    Performance 63rd.
    Braking 66th.
    Reliability 73rd.
    Ride quality 77th.
    Practicality 79th.
    Ease of driving 80th.
    Comfort 81st.
    Build quality 87th.

    Owner's quote: "Nice overall, but terrible electrics. The engine bay is badly designed - you can't access anything simply."

    78th - 76.63%. Citroen C3.

    TALK about your highs and lows! From a peak of 10th place in the running costs charts, the C3 plummets to 91st for build quality and a disgraceful 97th in the reliability stsakes. A quarter of owners said the car had failed to live up to their expectations and, even more tellingly, an unparalled eight per cent of you declared the Citroen the worst car you've owned. This is made all the more painful by the fact that, according to our Driver Power scoresheet, you think the C3 is practical, fast, easy to drive and equipped with excellent brakes. Please sort it out Citroen!
    Rankings:

    Running costs 10th.
    Braking 40th.
    Ease of driving 52nd.
    Practicality 65th.
    Performance 71st.
    Ride quality 78th.
    Handling 85th.
    Comfort 86th.
    Build quality 91st.
    Reliability 97th.

    Owner's quote: "The rattles are increasing by the month. Hope it isn't as bad as the high-mileage courtesy car I once had."

    79th - 76.57%. Peugeot 406.

    A FAR from disgraceful 79th proves that there's live in Peugeot's 406 family car. SCheduled to be replaced by an all-new version in the summer, the repmobile is still rated as one of the smoothest riders in the business (28th) and boasts a useful mix of fine practicality, respectable handling and comparatively affordable running costs. Where it's firmly trounced by newer models is for performance and reliability - the 406's engines are slow and its more complex systems prone to failure. Of the 65 per cent that needed dealer attention, more than a third were brought there by electrical problems.
    Rankings:

    Ride quality 28th.
    Practicality 55th.
    Running costs 66th.
    Handling 68th.
    Comfort 77th.
    Braking 79th.
    Build quality 81st.
    Ease of driving 84th.
    Reliability 87th.
    Performance 91st.

    Owner's quote: "A refined and well equipped car, excellent for my 1,000 miles a week on tortuous roads in the Highlands."

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    84th - 75.93%. Citroen Xsara.

    ANOTHER fundamentally decent car blighted by dodgy electrics - 72 per cent of Citroen Xsaras on the road have ground to a halt at some point in their life, and nearly half of these from electrical gremlins. Nearly one in 10 Xsara owners says that they wouldn't buy another, owing to its lack of reliability, which is a shame because you seem to rate the car in most other respects. Highlights include 51st for practicality, 43rd for running costs and an impressive 57th in the ride quality runnings - always a Citroen strength. Hopefully the C4, in showrooms later this year, will restore some pride.
    Rankings:

    Running costs 43rd.
    Practicality 51st.
    Ride quality 57th.
    Handling 71st.
    Braking 74th.
    Performance 78th.
    Comfort 85th.
    Build quality 88th.
    Reliability 94th.
    Ease of driving 95th.

    Owner's quote: "Fuel economy is good, and it's got a big boot. But it lacks rear space and the cabin quality is rubbish."

    85th - 75.81%. Peugeot 307.

    PEUGEOT had high hopes for its 307 hatch - as did we - but they appear to have been unfounded. A shocking 32 per cent of drivers say it has failed to live up to their expectations, the highest number recorded. With two out of three cars requiring attention from the dealer (40 per cent suffering electrical faults), it's easy to see why - only the Renault Espace is more likely to let you down. Class-leading practicality, low costs, a supple ride and tidy handling go some way towards alleviating matters, but until Peugeot solves its build quality issues, the 307 is unlikely to mount a serious challenge to Ford's Focus.
    Rankings:

    Practicality 43rd.
    Braking 56th.
    Handling 59th.
    Running costs 61st.
    Ride quality 64th.
    Comfort 72nd.
    Performance 89th.
    Ease of driving 90th.
    Build quality 97th.
    Reliability 99th.

    Owner's quote: "A good car let down by appalling build quality and poor internal fixtures and fittings. Too many minor faults".

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    92nd - 75.12%. Renault Espace (old)

    FRENCH models are known for ageing gracefully, but time seems to have run out for the previous generation Espace. Respective scores of 44th and 22nd for ride quality and practicality show the Renault can still cut it as a people carrier, but 99th for handling and 93rd for ease of use don't bode well for the driving experience. Worse still, its shocking failure rate of 73% puts the Espace dead last on reliability, and of the 100 models listed, only Subaru's turbocharged Impreza and Legacy were voted more costly to run. We'll see next year if the all-new version will be more suitable for families on a budget.
    Rankings:

    Practicality 22nd.
    Ride quality 44th.
    Comfort 55th.
    Braking 77th.
    Build quality 83rd.
    Performance 80th.
    Ease of driving 93rd.
    Running costs 98th.
    Handling 99th.
    Reliability 100th.

    Owner's quote: "I like the Espace, but am shocked at the running costs. Just replaced two front tyres for 345.

    93rd - 76.04%. Renault Megane (old)

    NO news is bad news for Renault's old-shape Megane, which finishes 93rd for the second year running. You say that the ride quality and comfort levels are acceptable, but the below-par results in the handling, reliability and ease of use categories mark it out as a less than enjoyable steer. Ultimately, though, the Megane is let down less by any specific failing than by its inability to impress in any particular category (other than running costs). Contrast this disappointing performance with that of the new model, and it's obvious that Renault has come a long way wince the early Nineties.
    Rankings:

    Running costs 45th.
    Comfort 71st.
    Ride quality 75th.
    Practicaility 78th.
    Build quality 80th.
    Braking 81st.
    Performance 86th.
    Handling 89th.
    Reliability 89th.
    Ease of driving 92nd.

    Owners's quote: "Chosen mainly for crash rating, but it's sluggish and unstable when fully loaded. I wouldn't buy another"

    95th - 73.45%. Peugeot 206.

    WHOOPS. Peugeot won't be pleased to see its best selling 206 finish in the mid 90s. Major gripes surrounded its poor reliability record - 59% of drivers reported faults, largely electrical in nature - while the cramped driving position and frustrating control system resulted in an appalling 97th for ease of use. On a positive note, you liked its handling and cheap monthly bills, and seemed fairly satisfied with its practicality and peppy range of petrol and HDi diesel engines. Nevertheless, a drop of five places in 2004 should be a warning to Peugeot: changes please...
    Rankings.

    Running Costs 48th.
    Handling 61st.
    Performance 73rd.
    Practicality 81st.
    Ride quality 82nd.
    Braking 90th.
    Reliability 90th.
    Build quality 92nd.
    Comfort 95th.
    Ease of driving 97th.

    Owners quote: "Three months old and had to go back with niggly things. Owned two new cars before with no problems".

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    99th - 69.73%. Citroen Saxo
    Worst: Braking, Comfort, Build quality.

    With the Saxo and 106 sharing the same cabin layout and mechanicals, it's no surprise to see the baby Citroen in 99th place once again in 2004. While you're less critical of the Saxo's performance and handling, and rate its running costs highly, 100th for both build quality and comfort paint a bleak picture. No wonder a staggering 47 per cent of owners said they would not buy another Saxo. Most worrying of all, though, is the fact it finished 100th for braking performance - not exactly an incentive for young, first-time buyers. Will its replacement, the C3, restore some pride for the French marque?
    Rankings:

    Running costs 31st.
    Handling 65th.
    Performance 84th.
    Reliability 85th.
    Practicality 91st.
    Ride quality 94th.
    Ease of driving 99th.
    Braking 100th.
    Build quality 100th.
    Comfort 100th.

    Owner's quote: "I wouldn't buy another Citroen after finding the Saxo to be poorly built and uncomfortable."

    100th - 68.49%. Peugeot 106.

    Worst: Performance, Ease of Driving.

    Things can't get much worst for Peugeot's ageing supermini. Not only does the 106 receive the Driver Power wooden spoon for the third year running, but it's overall score - a mere 68.5% - is the lowest we've ever recorded. Saved from total disgrace only by its low running costs (16th of out 100) and a so-so reliability ranking of 86th, the car is singled out for criticism in virtually every other area. Performance and ease of use are the worst offenders, followed closely by comfort, ride quality and braking ability. Dismal. Next autumn's replacement, the 107, simply can't come soon enough.
    Owner's quote: "It gets me from A to B adequately enough, but if money was no object I'd change it immediately."

    Running Costs 16th.
    Reliability 86th.
    Practicaility 89th.
    Handling 92nd.
    Build quality 96th.
    Ride quality 98th.
    Braking 99th.
    Comfort 99th.
    Ease of driving 100th.
    Performance 100th.

    Special Sections

    Britain's worst performance and ease of driving...Peugeot 106.

    SOME cars stand the test of time well; some don't. And for the third year running, you told us the Peugeot 106 is in the latter category.

    Launched in 1992 as a loose replacement for the 205, it was a popular option for those looking for an easy going urban runabout.

    But Peugeot had backed the wrong horse. Having developed the supermini class into a lucrative sector with the 205, bosses decided to make a smaller, cheaper model, that would, in theory, draw in even more buyers.

    Things went to plan in the first few years, until the likes of Renault and Vauxhall brought out bigger, better offerings with the Clio and the Corsa. The 106 suddenly looked too slow, small and uncomfortable. By the turn of the millenium, however, Peugeot had addressed a good number of the 106's problems. The flagship GTI gave the range a welcome shot of excitement, but the rest of the line-up, including an archaic 1.5 non-turbo diesel and a wheezy 1.1-litre petrol engines, was as flat-footed as ever.

    The baby Peugeot also came bottom of our survey for ease of driving. THe drivetrain and steering, especially at low speeds, were the worst offenders. Many owners complained of poor clutches and uncomfortable seats, too. Let's hope its replacement, the long-overdue 107, will restore the firm's credibility in the small-car market.
    Owner's comment: "On the whole the 106 is very ordinary and has probably the most uncomfortable seats I have ever sat in. It's noisy too!"

    Britain's worst brakes, build quality and comfort...Citroen Saxo

    CAN it get much worse for the Citroen Saxo in Driver Power? With three bottom-place finishes in 2004, the French supermini has collected six wooden spoons.

    You told us once again that the Saxo's build quality disappoints, and while many owners love its charms, a large percentage reported bits falling off. And it wasn't just tatty interiors that got you hot under the collar. Your votes also placed the Saxo at the bottom of the braking league, its haphazard design having a serious effect on pedal feel and stopping power.

    Then there's the comfort. As with many French superminis, the Saxo's driving position would give a contortionist leg-ache. The problem is a pedal box that sits at an odd angle to the seat and a steering column that runs between the brake and clutch pedals, which means that anyone with big feet can feel the column through their shoes. The rear packaging is also poor. Compared with the shorter Toyota Yaris, it'll leave you wondering where all the space went.

    So is there light at the end of the tunnel? Well, yes and no. While the C3 has better interior packaging, it finished just nine place higher than the Saxo in build quality and only came 97th in the reliability stakes. There's plenty of work to be done.
    Owner's comment: "I won't buy another Citroen. The Saxo is poorly built and uncomfortable."

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    What a mix of results. Great to see Renault doing well with the new Megane, engine troubles worrying in the Laguna, PSA in general needs to put more effort into engineering and building quality and reliability into their cars. Note the 407's launch has been delayed for these exact reasons.

    Crappy dealers in the UK aren't helping the Froggy cause in the UK. Fortunately we generally have reasonable dealers here in Melbourne, even some Renault ones

    Notice one trend.

    e
    l
    e
    c
    t
    r
    i
    c
    a
    l
    ...
    Did you get that? electrical...

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    Don't these French and Italian manufacturers get it? When will the penny drop?
    Out of the worst 6 dealers, four of these spots were Alfa, Peugeot, Citroen and Renault??? Will customers keep coming back? Will these companies keep growing? No they will be submerged by the Japanese drowning them in their tidal wave of reliability and general quality.

    The French and Italians are great engineers: the best, in fact. But the companies are run and marketed by people whose heads are so far up their clackers, and who are so ridiculously ethno-centric that they gotta change or disappear. The world is a larger place than just France or Italy. Is what I say unfair?
    I don't think so.

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    nJm
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    There has been quite a bit of interest in French cars in the Car Lounge at VW Vortex (primarily an American forum). They want to know when PSA and Renault will return to the North American car market. I've told them that they won't see them until the quality issues are sorted out. The cost of re-entering the American market would be astronomical, and any failure there would cost them dearly.

    I like my old pug because it is fairly well made and cheap/easy to repair. I can't say I would ever buy a (new) French car in the future given that they can no longer make a car which has good ride AND handling plus solid reliability. I sincerly hope they improve.
    Nick
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    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Britain's AutoExpress just published a study...
    A study? Is that like a sexed-up survey only more reliable?
    Now if only they'd done a Tony Blair and called it a dosier I'd be really convinced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307

    Ease of Driving
    Best - Jaguar XJ 97.1%
    Worst - Peugeot 106 68.8%
    I must confess I take these "studies" with a grain of salt. How a big car is easier to drive than a small car is beyond me, but there you go.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Build Quality
    Best - Honda Jazz 96.7%
    Worst - Citroen Saxo - 60.5%
    That ones's equally perplexing. The Jazz's I see all have shocking finish! Orange peel paint, panel gaps, misaligned trim etc. And by all accounts they handle like a shopping trolley. Must have a bloody good marketing department.

    Remember when the 306 first came out? The motoring press absolutely raved about it. It was so far in front of the rest of the field it wasn't funny. And then suddenly, almost everything else out there had either caught up or overtaken it. No longer was the 306 chassis the benchmark for all the others - it literally fell from favour overnight. Sadly the credibility of the press is only surpassed by its fickleness.

    Interesting reading but it's really toad-pond fodder mate. Sorry.
    Last edited by graham66; 6th April 2004 at 01:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    There has been quite a bit of interest in French cars in the Car Lounge at VW Vortex (primarily an American forum). They want to know when PSA and Renault will return to the North American car market. I've told them that they won't see them until the quality issues are sorted out. The cost of re-entering the American market would be astronomical, and any failure there would cost them dearly.

    I like my old pug because it is fairly well made and cheap/easy to repair. I can't say I would ever buy a (new) French car in the future given that they can no longer make a car which has good ride AND handling plus solid reliability. I sincerly hope they improve.
    NJM this article may address your hopes and your right any foreign product that is not reliable! forgedaboutit, they still mention the Dalphine engine failures in the 1960s. Lets hope the elec issues are fixed.
    From last weeks Auto Insider - Detroit News
    "PSA Peugeot Citroen may re-enter U.S.
    PARIS — PSA Peugeot Citroen, Europe’s second-biggest carmaker, is considering returning to the U.S. car market before Renault SA, France’s second-biggest carmaker, is able to establish a presence there. “We can’t ignore the fact that the American market is the biggest market in the world,” Peugeot Chairman Jean-Martin Folz told reporters this week, according to Dow Jones Newswires. Peugeot, which holds 5.9 percent of the global car market, left the U.S. market in 1992. Peugeot only sold one model in the U.S. — the 405 compact sedan. "
    Seems cars put together in countries with diverse workforces have quality problems compared to Japan- Korea- Thai. Not referring to design here.
    Cheers- GavinS 25 GTX 1987 build 2165cc auto - TBR. Renault is properly pronounced "Rhen-oh."
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    nJm
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    Graham, how would you attempt to find these sorts of statistics other than a large scale survey? You could ask the manufactorers about warranty claims I guess, but how honest would they be? You also would not get ideas of practicality or the driving experience.

    I found the JD Power Survey to be incredibly useful when helping my parents buy a car recently. We were looking at getting 4 year old VW Passat, Saab 9-5 or Honda Accord. We ended up with an Accord V6, as the others statistically get far more problems by the time they are 4-5 years old. The Passats tend to need suspension components replaced and the 2.8L V6 is prone to oil leaks. The Saab is generally more reliable, but their electrics aren't quite up to scratch. The Honda's on the other hand, as bland as they are, have almost no 'known' problems. Does that mean we won't have any? Of course not, but these surveys give you a good idea on what goes wrong.

    For instance, if they were still interested in 505's, I'm sure a common complaint would be the rear brake calipers stick and require rebuilding.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    Juzzy - Are you on holidays from uni? Where do u get the time for this research?

    Warwick - Yes the italian ar the best in the world.

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    XTC
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    Well Ren/Cit/Pug continue to rely on the enthusiasm and patience of owners, there is no doubt they have come up with some of the best packages ever - but owners seem to be able to forgive them on their shoddy reliability and service record. I'm one owner who will be looking at Japanese or German cars only in the future ... sad but true.

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    I must confess I take these "studies" with a grain of salt. How a big car is easier to drive than a small car is beyond me, but there you go.
    This is their definition.

    WE'VE come a long way in a century of motoring. Modern cars contain driver aids that would have been incomprehensible to the pioneers. But have we come far enough? Not according to some of your responses. So what is it that makes a car easy to drive? Essentially, it's position, weighting and action of the controls. A heavy gearshift can ruin an otherwise perfect drivetrain, while leaden steering can transform the smallest of superminis into a tank when parking. We asked you to mark your car up if it was a dream to drive and down if it was a dog.
    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    That ones's equally perplexing. The Jazz's I see all have shocking finish! Orange peel paint, panel gaps, misaligned trim etc.
    I think few people would agree with this assessment. Even our own Double Chevron was knocking the Citroen competitor the C3 for its poor quality relative to the Jazz.

    The Jazz is one of the best built superminis out there. I suspect you simply got a dud, unless you just wanted to see it in a bad light. Just the quality of materials, lack of rattles. Sure there aren't Accord Euro bees dick sized panel gaps, but they're more than competitive for the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    And by all accounts they handle like a shopping trolley. Must have a bloody good marketing department.
    I've driven one quite a bit - in the city, hours long trips up mountains, etc. They aren't a dynamic disaster, just a bit boring in the handling department, that's all. Given the way most people drive them (ie. how most of the population never experiences under- or oversteer), it's probably a non issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    Remember when the 306 first came out? The motoring press absolutely raved about it. It was so far in front of the rest of the field it wasn't funny. And then suddenly, almost everything else out there had either caught up or overtaken it. No longer was the 306 chassis the benchmark for all the others - it literally fell from favour overnight. Sadly the credibility of the press is only surpassed by its fickleness.
    I think what you forget is a car is not just only its chassis. In other departments, the competition certainly has leapfrogged the 306.

    What's wrong with that?
    Need to be a bit more open minded, me thinks

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warwick2
    Don't these French and Italian manufacturers get it? When will the penny drop?
    Out of the worst 6 dealers, four of these spots were Alfa, Peugeot, Citroen and Renault??? Will customers keep coming back? Will these companies keep growing? No they will be submerged by the Japanese drowning them in their tidal wave of reliability and general quality.
    The thing is, the Japanese are building cars that are becoming more fun to drive, engines which don't need to be revved till high heaven before something happens. They're improving on their flaws.

    With the French, I don't see them making any real progress against quality, and that's a real shame. There have been some improvements in perceived quality (especially in the new Renaults with nicer trim materials), but what's the point if the cars lack reliability. They just don't seem to care. Why?

    There's no point being in a state of denial - something needs to wake up French industry to discover quality. What do they have against it? The issue has been around for years, and until they get it right, they've got buckley's chance at getting people to use their own money to buy things like 607s, etc.

    You start off in a two-oh or a three-oh. As you move up in life, earn more money, etc, when you buy a more expensive car, you expect certain things.

    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    There has been quite a bit of interest in French cars in the Car Lounge at VW Vortex (primarily an American forum). They want to know when PSA and Renault will return to the North American car market. I've told them that they won't see them until the quality issues are sorted out. The cost of re-entering the American market would be astronomical, and any failure there would cost them dearly.
    I can't wait for them to return, because when they do, I am confident the standard of quality will shoot through the roof. That will be a great thing for all of us.

    The 407's launch is delayed because of quality problems. Great! (I'm serious). Why? Because I'd rather see them launch a car properly, rather than have the car's and the brand's reputation ruined by crappy quality. There is no reason why they can't screw a car together properly if they really want to.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    I think what you forget is a car is not just only its chassis
    Disagree. The chassis is everything. That's why we love our Froggies, warts 'n' all. They ride, handle and steer like a car should. I've still yet to experience that in other marques despite their "quality".

    Screw quality Give me that fabulous French ride anyday

    Have you ever driven a 2CV? Then you might understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Need to be a bit more open minded, me thinks
    Just being parochial. You get that on enthusiasts' boards. Even Volvo ones

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    nJm
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    Disagree. The chassis is everything. That's why we love our Froggies, warts 'n' all. They ride, handle and steer like a car should. I've still yet to experience that in other marques despite their "quality".

    Screw quality Give me that fabulous French ride anyday
    The chassis is extremely important, but a fantastic chassis won't do you any good when you can't start your car because the 'smart key' stops working (this is a known problem on some Lagunas).

    And that said, I disagree that the french have the leading edge in ride/handling any more. I've driven a few 206s, a 307, 2 C3s and a Xantia. I don't actually remember being impressed with any of them in this regard. The 307 is quite capable once up at speed, but the 206 is certainly nothing special. It isn't very good at soaking up lots of little bumps, such as corregations on the road. Hit any undulating bits in the road and you feel the rear suspension desperately trying to work it all out. At one stage I believe we even reached maximum extension of its suspension travel. Handling is very good though.


    I honestly believe that they have lost the edge. If you want a fantastic chassis coupled with great handling and ride quality buy a Ford Europe product such as the Festiva, Focus or Mondeo. They manage to do that AND be fairly reliable and well made.

    I will always have a huge amount of respect for the pre 90s French cars, and I'm still obsessed with my 505 and a friend's 504, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the modern ones. Brand loyalty is one thing, but occasionally
    this site has a bit of the 'blind leading the blind' going on.

    I would not be so forthright if I had not actually driven these modern Froggies for my self. I look forward to driving some new Renaults. I'm hoping I will like them better than the current PSA lot.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    The chassis is extremely important, but a fantastic chassis won't do you any good when you can't start your car because the 'smart key' stops working (this is a known problem on some Lagunas).

    And that said, I disagree that the french have the leading edge in ride/handling any more. I've driven a few 206s, a 307, 2 C3s and a Xantia. I don't actually remember being impressed with any of them in this regard. The 307 is quite capable once up at speed, but the 206 is certainly nothing special. It isn't very good at soaking up lots of little bumps, such as corregations on the road. Hit any undulating bits in the road and you feel the rear suspension desperately trying to work it all out. At one stage I believe we even reached maximum extension of its suspension travel. Handling is very good though.


    I honestly believe that they have lost the edge. If you want a fantastic chassis coupled with great handling and ride quality buy a Ford Europe product such as the Festiva, Focus or Mondeo. They manage to do that AND be fairly reliable and well made.

    I will always have a huge amount of respect for the pre 90s French cars, and I'm still obsessed with my 505 and a friend's 504, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the modern ones. Brand loyalty is one thing, but occasionally
    this site has a bit of the 'blind leading the blind' going on.

    I would not be so forthright if I had not actually driven these modern Froggies for my self. I look forward to driving some new Renaults. I'm hoping I will like them better than the current PSA lot.
    Good points you raise about post 90's Frogs but I would have thought the 306 was still a standout example of what the French are capable of. And that's not Brand Loyalty talking.

    The Laguna smart key not working is a minor issue really. Every marque has their share of duds, recalls etc. Didn't these things achieve a 5 star rating on NCAP? No blind leading the blind there. Quite impressive I would have thought.

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    nJm
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    True. The 306 and 406 are the only modern Peugeots that I would consider owning.


    I believe the current Laguna is certainly a safe car, but isn't that great to drive. Handling (apparently) isn't very sharp and the auto is horrid. That said everyone seems to find them extremely practical and the diesels are fab
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Fellow Frogger! yawood's Avatar
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    Interesting comments. I've had my licence since 1962 (and have actually been driving longer than that, around the farm). In those days most smaller cars were English (Austin, Morris, Hillman), bigger ones from the US (Ford Customline, Chrysler Royal), every second car was a Holden and the luxury ones were things like Jaguars or Humbers. Then there were those funny French things like Peugeot 203 and 403, Renault 750 and Citroen DS. Never known for their power the French cars still beat just about anything on the road point-to-point because of their above average handling ability and the wonderfully compliant suspension on less-than-perfect roads. Other Europeans such as Saab and Volvo coped pretty well but Alfas and Fiats simply went like the clappers before the rust ate them even quicker (I know because I owned some - talk about unreliability!).

    Then the Japanese really took off, the roads got better (and more boring), the cars got more 'stuff' which made life easier but not more interesting. Tyres got much better (I can't remember the last time I had a puncture yet they were a way of life on the old cross plys). Still no one could beat the French for suspension compliance and matching seats.

    About that time I owned a VW Passat and my brother asked me to mind his 504 while he was in Europe. That was it, I fell in love (I hadn't had the same reaction with his 403 or 404 when I drove them and I never drove his 203). So, after I came home from a posting to Malaysia, I bought my first 504.

    When the 505 came along they lost both my brother and I because they simply got too expensive and after that I lost interest because they became front wheel drive (and I don't believe they ever really competed all that well with the competition). I bought a six cylinder BMW for my wife and was so impressed that when I retired from the air force I bought a near new one (since upgraded to another near-new coupe). Now, in preparation for an outback trip, I've bought the 505 that I never had before - it's great and will be a lot of fun.

    All my memorable cars have been rear-wheel drive (in fact all but three cars I've ever owned have been rear-wheel drive) and I like it that way. French cars used to be built like tanks but as they've had to compete with the Japanese, they've got lighter and less sound - hence more unreliable. Give me the older Peugeots any day.
    Bruce

    Currently owned:
    1988 505 GTi S2 Familial
    1999 E46 BMW 328Ci, 2002 Falcon AUIII Ute
    Previously owned:
    ('78-'81) 1970 504 (with the beautiful French seats)
    ('81-'89) 1977 504 (took the family on postings to Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Canberra)
    Brother owned:
    203,403,404,504 (each when they were current vehicles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    Just being parochial. You get that on enthusiasts' boards. Even Volvo ones
    Hey, but I reckon we're a pretty open minded bunch

    You know, a good few of the last Pugs in the USA were cared for by Volvo owners. 505s, 405s, certainly weren't many sold and they're rather overrepresented on Swedespeed compared to other US forums. I think they actually understand French cars better than most people in that part of the world

    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    The Laguna smart key not working is a minor issue really.
    I dunno about you, but when I own a car, I find it most beneficial if I can start it

    If you're after a museum piece, maybe it's not so important if it can start, but hey as a daily driver, I can't afford to have a $50,000 car just sitting pretty being towed back to the dealer. Hope the backup works, well I'm hoping there's a backup system!

    Good on Renault for the advances in safety, look forward to the real life figures filtering through.

    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    I believe the current Laguna is certainly a safe car, but isn't that great to drive. Handling (apparently) isn't very sharp and the auto is horrid.
    The strange thing is that it's the same gearbox as in the Nissan Maxima, Volvo S60, XC70, etc, Saab 9-3 & 9-5, Holden Vectra, etc, and it doesn't seem to get too much criticism.

    It's the programming.

    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    That said everyone seems to find them extremely practical and the diesels are fab
    Ooh, I dunno, good ol' cynical Graham seems to think we can't believe anything in Driver Power...

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
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    justin thanks for taking the time to post all that man. great work and very interesting.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Gee's,

    I better not let my father see this. They recently bought a Honda Jazz 'cos they reckoned it was streets ahead of the C3 and better than the other cars in it's class...

    I'll never hear the end of it if he see's how many groupings it's won above

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca

    Warwick - Yes the italian ar the best in the world.

    sweet engines yes

    as far as reliable unless they have come an awful long way they were never a car that you could jump in any time and be safe in knowing you were going to make it to the end of the trip

    and please don't let me start on some of the driveline configurations where after a couple of years you had to fumble for gears as everything was worn out and sloppy
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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