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  1. #301
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    If you are making excuses for farmers growing unsuitable crops in unsuitable locations, i.e; crops that cannot survive without irrigation because the average rainfall at the growing location is insufficient then I think that you and many others have lost the plot. There is only so much water in the sky and the result of unabated irrigation is what we have in the Murray-Darling system right now.

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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Was speaking to a person that is experiencing extended drought bought on by a certain Victorian government that decided that it would stop irrigation channels leaking water in the Golbourne valley Shepparton fruit bowl area of Victoria and then using that "saved" irrigation water that was otherwise lost to seepage the bean counters said could then be diverted to Melbourne in a hugely expensive pipeline. (cheaper than sending migrants and others to live in the country?)

    [...]
    Your logic baffles brain.

    What would those migrants (ha!) drink in the drought stricken area?

    The idea itself of sending the least likely people to have a chance at survival there is strange as well. What can those migrants do that we didn't manage to do for two hundred years? Bring water in their pockets? Fix our mess? Yeah, get some migrants in, that'll fix everything from drought to measles. Now we know why we are in such a mess.

    By the way, drought is not brought about by renouncing irrigation. FYI.

    Australia needs to realise that of all natural resources we lack the most important. Water.

    Unfortunately, because it worked with all other resources in abundant occurrence, we waste that one as well.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Successful move of Rohinga refugees to Nhill. Many employed at Luv a Duck.
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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    Successful move of Rohinga refugees to Nhill. Many employed at Luv a Duck.
    Would they benefit by having a very fast train?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    I'm sure they'd like a passenger service to Horsham even if it was slow. There was still a remnant of the old Overland that goes through a few days a week. Nhill has always been the change point for trucks running between Melbourne and Adelaide. That's where the IPEC 203 utes would change drivers. Or did they change loads? Now there's a big parking lot where trucks change trailers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post

    [...]

    Even if a VFT and an aircraft were travelling at the same speed, looking out of the window the VFT would have the countryside in a blur whereas the perception of the passage over the ground from an aircraft is very relaxed and sedate. John

    I take it you haven't been on one of these because you are wrong. I can show you pictures I took from the Shinkansen and they are just amazing. Same in Europe on the Eurostar. Yes, if you're looking at your nose it can be blurry, but distant features of the landscape appear as slow moving as from any other means of transport.
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    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    Successful move of Rohinga refugees to Nhill. Many employed at Luv a Duck.

    Many? How many? How many Luv a Ducks do they have there? Did that help with the drought?

    When I came to Oz 20+ years ago, everybody was sent to Adelaide. I keep in touch with the mob I met there, but none are there still. Such measures are just lip service when you are not investing in your own country. Whilst there I have witnessed the loss of various sporting events, refineries, power plants, factories and so on, many moved interstate others overseas. Adelaide is dying because Adelaideans with money don't give a shit and so is regional Oz. The ridiculous aspect is that we don't put any money to fix local economies but expect some migrants dumped there will do it. yeah, you can pay them less, so your economy might be able to breathe for a little while longer but the long term result won't change.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 19th February 2019 at 08:52 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Is the fruit industry move that simple? In my youth the Hills, the Hawkesbury and Central Coast up to Newcastle were all orchards, stone fruit and citrus. They had natural rainfall, and were either on river alluvium or shale-derived deep soils. Very few survive. The industry seems now to be irrigated along the lower Murray, in what would have been semi-desert.

    Landowners west of the divide cannot freely save rainfall because some lower Murray area needs irrigating. This goes beyond environmental issues.
    Melbourne of course has a flourishing Orchard industry, and when we came to Melbourne from the flat we rented we could see all the orchards of Doncaster, just green trees, but over the years we watched the march of the terracotta roofs as housing took over all the orchards, then we ran short of water and were no longer allowed to water the lawn areas of Melbourne, or wash cars or chase each other around and have water fights with garden hose, strict restrictions came in and the amount of evaporation that used to end up as rain in the Dandenong ranges and parts of Gippsland also changed and so we grew only people and houses in Melbourne, until we worked out to use rain water saved from our roofs and also recycled water to save house plants.


    Shepparton and the valley became our main food bowl as with irrigation it flourished and could grow anything and support dairy farms and a wine growing industry, now a lot of that has reverted to grazing. I used to laugh at Maroopna near Shepparton that had a sign "Fruit Salad City" until some one realised its slang name could be interpreted as indicating craziness of its inhabitants when what they were referring to was the concentration of the great canning factories that exported to all parts of the globe. Sadly most have gone with only SPC hanging on by its fingernails.


    Pretty sad for these towns in Central Victoria.


    Ken
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 19th February 2019 at 10:41 PM.

  9. #309
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    This has made me so disillusioned that I think I will park myself between a lavatree and a palm tree on some abandoned beach and weep.

    "The answer my friend is blowing in the wind, and the wind is turning Mt Cook very brown".

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Your logic baffles brain.

    What would those migrants (ha!) drink in the drought stricken area?

    The idea itself of sending the least likely people to have a chance at survival there is strange as well. What can those migrants do that we didn't manage to do for two hundred years? Bring water in their pockets? Fix our mess? Yeah, get some migrants in, that'll fix everything from drought to measles. Now we know why we are in such a mess.

    By the way, drought is not brought about by renouncing irrigation. FYI.

    Australia needs to realise that of all natural resources we lack the most important. Water.

    Unfortunately, because it worked with all other resources in abundant occurrence, we waste that one as well.
    You missed my point entirely, for some years Migrant families were settled and were very productive in the areas that had abundant water, due to forward thinking politicians in yesteryear, and it would have been far better to have boosted decentralisation and poured both money and more migrant resettlement into Greater Shepparton, but instead they ignored that sensible idea, as their only mission was to divert water to Melbourne and while doing that spin doctor justification they didn't realise the consequences of those changes.. Dummies who never studied or understood the weather or history of Australia.

    The whole settlement of Australia has been concentrated in areas where water can be accessed, dams built, and irrigation sustained but in reallocation of water rights the country and ordinary farmers have had a rough trot, for hundreds of years they have coped with rivers that don't run in hot weather and used to the dead fish, the algae and worked around all those things, but todays bean counters have no interest in farmers, they live in the big cities along with the latte sippers and freeloaders that have ultimate political sway on governments through the power of voting.


    Ken
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 19th February 2019 at 10:45 PM.
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    I don't know how many Rohinga moved to Nhill but it is regarded as a success of relocation. Luv A Duck is a major producer and processor of ducks. Parts of Victoria have been drought affected but a reasonable grain harvest was produced so feed costs for poultry and feedlotting are high but not impossible. This follows on last years record harvest with quite a lot of grain in store. Reasons for the decline of regional communities are multi faceted. Easy to identify those who let country communities down, more complex to devise strategies to support them. Restoration of rail services is perhaps a good symbol of central government support (or lack of it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    This has made me so disillusioned that I think I will park myself between a lavatree and a palm tree on some abandoned beach and weep.

    "The answer my friend is blowing in the wind, and the wind is turning Mt Cook very brown".

    John
    I hear that Christmas Island real estate may get quite crowded soon, but there is apparently an island paradise with great beaches and fishing that might have some vacant land for you to take up in the near future John. I think it is called Mann us...

    Good Luck.

    Ken

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    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    Fake news again.
    "fake news" is an expression used by Donald Trump and his supporters. It means "facts which disagree with me". Check for yourself, but there is nothing "fake" about what I said. Large inland cities/towns in NSW are seeing population growth in line with Australia as a whole. That is up towards 2% per annum. Just go to Google.com and you will find the facts. If you are talking about towns with 100 inhabitants, or the far West, then I getcha, but the likes of Bathurst, Orange, Dubbo, Wagga are increasing. If I look at a random selection of smaller towns I find population increasing in Mildura, Forbes, Armidale, Tamworth, Griffith.
    Here is some 'fake news' from The Land.
    https://www.theland.com.au/story/536...ulation-drain/


    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    So in your opinion what are those 1% extra people doing in rural areas?
    I don't care what they are doing. I am merely stated that populations in inland cities / large towns in, contrary to that which was incorrectly stated, are increasing. Obviously they are finding something to do which suits them.

    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Sydney's population increased 10.88% in a year in 2013 Sydney Population 2019
    The numbers on that web site are completely bogus. I would have thought that obvious if only because - according to the numbers there - Sydney's population increased by 10.88% in one year, then 1.89% the next! Back in the real world, 2017 was the first year ever that Sydney's population had increased by more than 100k, as widely reported at the time. Yet they are trying to tell us that it increased by almost 500,000 in 2011!

    Overall, Australia's population growth has been running very high for the West, at up around 2% pa. That is in line with population growth in inland cities, as any cursory enquiry will show. Two-bit hamlets are obviously not thriving, for a range of equally obvious reasons, but I would imagine the former occupants have simply moved to larger towns nearby. Irrespective of the nuances of the issue, it is quite untrue to say that populations beyond commuting distance from capital cities, are all declining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1972Ren View Post
    Large inland cities/towns in NSW are seeing population growth in line with Australia as a whole. That is up towards 2% per annum. Just go to Google.com and you will find the facts. If you are talking about towns with 100 inhabitants, or the far West, then I getcha, but the likes of Bathurst, Orange, Dubbo, Wagga are increasing. If I look at a random selection of smaller towns I find population increasing in Mildura, Forbes, Armidale, Tamworth, Griffith.
    There is a good analysis of all of Australia here:
    https://chartingtransport.com/2019/0...-in-australia/
    Small country town population is growing, but slower than the similarly paced big cities. Interestingly the final image of that article shows sustained growth around the coasts and receding population inland, mechanization and automation along with more efficient production must be part of the explanation.
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    Fake news is used in your honour 72 because you rubbish non-western and non-mainstream news sources and those who don't share your view. It describes your approach perfectly. There are several regional centres in Victoria that have grown partly because of decentralization projects of earlier governments. There are major towns like Hamilton that have the same population as 70 years ago. And there are dozens of smaller towns that are in major population decline. The Wimmera populations have either moved to larger regional towns where there are services and about half the population loss has gone to the cities. Drive through the Western District, the Wimmera and the Mallee to see once prosperous towns in often terminal decline. Towns that had industries and multiple car dealerships and bustling main streets struggling to survive. There are many reasons why population decline has occurred but lack of government spending on infrastructure and services is definitely one. Small towns are agriculture dependent and Australian agriculture has gone through tough times and low profitability since the 1970's. As a major exporter farm incomes have been dependent upon the international trade and we have been hurt badly by international blocs like the EU and political interference in trade. Returns are looking up with demand for agricultural commodities on the rise but we are still subject to the effects of international politics like trade sanctions being thrown around and the EU trashing the international dairy price. Once the drought breaks farm incomes will be good and that will flow through to country towns. With the exception of the Gulf Country of Queensland that has received a billion dollar hit in a natural disaster. Now that will be a test of government commitment to the bush. For my district, the nearest town has gone from 2600 to 1600 in 40 years, and has lost two supermarkets, a railway, an engineering works, four car dealers, an undertaker, four banks, two clothing factories, a meatworks, a shire workshop, a soft drink factory and two hardware stores but has gained an expanded nursing home. But that's much better than most Wimmera Mallee towns.
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    Hi,
    you are talking about the remotest NW part of Victoria, and I agree there has been population loss there between the last censuses. I also note that the population of Horesham and Mildura grew in that time, and Warracknabeal essentially stagnant (tiny loss).

    You will, however, recall that what you said was that 'all country towns beyond commuting distance from the city are in decline'. That is not true at all. Actually, it is not even true of modestly large towns in your area, let alone anywhere else. That is the claim I was addressing and morphing your topic and claim does not change that. If the point is that very small towns in very remote areas are in population decline, then I fully agree. It is just not what you said.

    Regarding infrastructure, of course there is always someone wanting more money spent here and there, but you may be interested to know that the Inland Rail project currently being constructed, is costing up towards $10bn. That is quite significant spending. Plus in NSW the government is spending several billion $ upgrading passenger rail fleet, just to mention a couple of rural infrastructure projects under way.
    Last edited by 1972Ren; 20th February 2019 at 02:25 PM.

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    Icon10 Back to the VFT now what was it about..

    When all said and done, pedantic nit picks only become inflammatory, best not to bother responding (as I keep telling myself too Russell) as it only sparks another round of nitpicking and I suppose we can all get sucked into that,


    Back to the subject,

    Ken

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    The very fast passenger train can't get a hope of finance for want of passengers but the inland freight project from Melbourne to Brisbane via Narrabri can. Another example of the Melbourne port being serviced by rail lines mainly in NSW. This will relieve the heavily trafficked existing lines that pass through Sydney and Newcastle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    The very fast passenger train can't get a hope of finance for want of passengers but the inland freight project from Melbourne to Brisbane via Narrabri can. Another example of the Melbourne port being serviced by rail lines mainly in NSW. This will relieve the heavily trafficked existing lines that pass through Sydney and Newcastle.

    I think the real test on whether or not there would be customers for such a train would be to take people on a journey on a similar train in Europe/Japan and then ask if they would prefer that or the plane. My money sez most would be only too happy to give up the pleasure of check in.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Only if the ticket price is comparable.
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Only if the ticket price is comparable.
    Exactly. Planes are moving hundreds of people per minute, using existing infrastructure. This infrastructure, commonly called 'airports', is very convenient not just for the people who live here, but also for people who fly in to the country and change to a domestic flight within the same building. That cannot happen with trains.

    Ignoring the argument of 'finite resources' because that limit also applies to everything that would be needed to build a VFT, there is an incalculable cost to making a VFT with as many inhabitants in the whole country as you find in just the cities of Tokyo or Mexico City or San Paolo, covering a distance (Syd-Mel) that is roughly from the Mediterranean to the Channel ie across the whole of France.

    Why this thread is still even open is beyond me.

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    Default Very Fast Train

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    https://www.theherald.com.au/story/5...owed-to-depot/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dijon16 View Post
    Exactly. Planes are moving hundreds of people per minute, using existing infrastructure. This infrastructure, commonly called 'airports', is very convenient not just for the people who live here, but also for people who fly in to the country and change to a domestic flight within the same building. That cannot happen with trains.

    Ignoring the argument of 'finite resources' because that limit also applies to everything that would be needed to build a VFT, there is an incalculable cost to making a VFT with as many inhabitants in the whole country as you find in just the cities of Tokyo or Mexico City or San Paolo, covering a distance (Syd-Mel) that is roughly from the Mediterranean to the Channel ie across the whole of France.

    Why this thread is still even open is beyond me.
    I got on the Eurostar at St Pancras Station in the centre of London and got off it at Gare du Nord, in the centre of Paris 2 hours and twenty minutes later. Try that in an aeroplane, city centre to city centre...........
    Last edited by Kim Luck; 20th February 2019 at 09:07 PM.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    The trains carry 750 passengers at a time, and as you will have seen, are not expensive for basic seats!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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