Looking for non-boring Daily Driver
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Looking for non-boring Daily Driver

    Barring major catastrophies my 505 GTI wagon should go this weekend, so now I am seriously looking for a replacement. As the title suggests, non-boring is the theme. Obviously I want something French, manual, up to $10k. I am excluding Renaults - mostly because they there are only R19s in the price range I am looking at, sorry guys but R19s are boring.

    Here's my thinking - I'm looking for suggestions and/or comments.

    A BX, esp a 16v, appeals. However, it is hard to find one that is in good enough condition to be reliable on a day to day basis without spending top dollar. While top dollar on these isn't a huge amount of money, these cars are rare, and in some ways it would be bad form to drive a mint example every day in the traffic. I know it will get scuffed and dented, bird poop etc, and for a rare collectors car that would be a great shame. It is probably also true that a mediocre example could easily end up costing more than a mint example with some urgent repairs thrown in. It is probably also running the risk of downtime should something like a door get damaged enough to make the car undrivable, there being so few cars out there to get parts from.

    405s also appeal. I almost traded the 505 back in 1992 for a mi16, but my third child (nicknamed surprise!) put an end to that. The 505 with three children was much more practical. From looking around, S1 mi16s seem to be getting just too old, both years & kms, to be a really viable proposition. Of course, there are mint examples out there, but for the same reasons as a mint BX I wouldn't feel comfortable driving one every day in the traffic. S2 mi16s are still quite expensive, although I have seen one for 5500 with 170000km on the clock. Not a bad car, but maybe just old enough to start getting niggling problems. Non-mi16 405s are interesting, esp the SRis/STis with leather etc. I think S2s in these are the go - much more solid & bugger all difference in the price today.

    406s are also nice, but more money than I want to pay. The cheapest one advertised at the moment is a 1996 ST manual with 160000km for $14k. Sad to say, but a 406 ST is bordering on boring as well.

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    This leads to Xantias. They are definitely the unloved by the market french car (excluding any Renault), and I don't really understand why. A 1995 VSX manual 16v with maybe 120000km is under $10k. While it isn't the outright sports car the BX 16v or mi16 is, still a very nice car to drive, and in 16v form, good performance as well. Consider that a Xantia is 97kw & 1300kg, compared to 108kw & 1180kg for a 405 mi16. I would expect similar performance from either until the mi16 gets over 4500rpm and into it's power band. There are not a lot of them around - they sold at the rate of maybe 40/month Australia wide - but being newer hopefully parts are not an issue the way they may be for BXs. In my opinion they are not as boring as a 406ST or 405SRi/STi, but not as interesting as a BX 16v or mi16. A good compromise maybe?

    Suggestions? Flames?

    Barry.

  2. #2
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    For that money you should/could be buying a 306 XR (1.8L 8v engine, manual, climate control).

    They're certainly not a boring car to drive, especially if you put decent tyres on them. I know of people who've paid between $8000 and $10 000 in Sydney in the last year for decent examples of a 306 XR with 130 000 - 150 000km on the clock.

    If you want a 405, Damon Beck (Gladesville Prestige Cars) has a very very neat 405 SRi (92kw 2L 8v engine, manual - great engine, really torquey, easy to drive) for $8000 on his lot at the moment. I wouldn't really call it boring to drive, that engine has plenty of pep, and is so tractable it makes up for it, as long as you don't want to win every traffic light grand prix.

    Something to think about anyway
    Derek

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barryg
    Barring major catastrophies my 505 GTI wagon should go this weekend, so now I am seriously looking for a replacement. As the title suggests, non-boring is the theme. Obviously I want something French, manual, up to $10k. I am excluding Renaults - mostly because they there are only R19s in the price range I am looking at, sorry guys but R19s are boring.

    Here's my thinking - I'm looking for suggestions and/or comments.

    A BX, esp a 16v, appeals. However, it is hard to find one that is in good enough condition to be reliable on a day to day basis without spending top dollar. While top dollar on these isn't a huge amount of money, these cars are rare, and in some ways it would be bad form to drive a mint example every day in the traffic. I know it will get scuffed and dented, bird poop etc, and for a rare collectors car that would be a great shame. It is probably also true that a mediocre example could easily end up costing more than a mint example with some urgent repairs thrown in. It is probably also running the risk of downtime should something like a door get damaged enough to make the car undrivable, there being so few cars out there to get parts from.

    405s also appeal. I almost traded the 505 back in 1992 for a mi16, but my third child (nicknamed surprise!) put an end to that. The 505 with three children was much more practical. From looking around, S1 mi16s seem to be getting just too old, both years & kms, to be a really viable proposition. Of course, there are mint examples out there, but for the same reasons as a mint BX I wouldn't feel comfortable driving one every day in the traffic. S2 mi16s are still quite expensive, although I have seen one for 5500 with 170000km on the clock. Not a bad car, but maybe just old enough to start getting niggling problems. Non-mi16 405s are interesting, esp the SRis/STis with leather etc. I think S2s in these are the go - much more solid & bugger all difference in the price today.

    406s are also nice, but more money than I want to pay. The cheapest one advertised at the moment is a 1996 ST manual with 160000km for $14k. Sad to say, but a 406 ST is bordering on boring as well.

    This leads to Xantias. They are definitely the unloved by the market french car (excluding any Renault), and I don't really understand why. A 1995 VSX manual 16v with maybe 120000km is under $10k. While it isn't the outright sports car the BX 16v or mi16 is, still a very nice car to drive, and in 16v form, good performance as well. Consider that a Xantia is 97kw & 1300kg, compared to 108kw & 1180kg for a 405 mi16. I would expect similar performance from either until the mi16 gets over 4500rpm and into it's power band. There are not a lot of them around - they sold at the rate of maybe 40/month Australia wide - but being newer hopefully parts are not an issue the way they may be for BXs. In my opinion they are not as boring as a 406ST or 405SRi/STi, but not as interesting as a BX 16v or mi16. A good compromise maybe?

    Suggestions? Flames?

    Barry.
    Hi Barry,

    yeah, a Xantia is fantastic buying in that price range (which is why my wife now drives one). Recently I saw a Xantia CT turbo with less than 100,000km on the clock for $13500 Bloody hell that's a CHEAP car !!!!!!

    The suspension is the least of your worries, no doubt I'd give the sphere's a squirt of gas, and change the LHM on purchase, other than that, you don't need to worry about them.

    I'd suggest you look at any 5spd manual (even the lower powered 8valve Xantias are ok --we didn't get the small engined 1.8 and 1.6 litre models here). The automatics are 'sedate', and I personally don't like automatics (though I must admit I haven't heard of anyone having problem with the reliability of autos).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    For that money you should/could be buying a 306 XR (1.8L 8v engine, manual, climate control).

    They're certainly not a boring car to drive, especially if you put decent tyres on them. I know of people who've paid between $8000 and $10 000 in Sydney in the last year for decent examples of a 306 XR with 130 000 - 150 000km on the clock.

    If you want a 405, Damon Beck (Gladesville Prestige Cars) has a very very neat 405 SRi (92kw 2L 8v engine, manual - great engine, really torquey, easy to drive) for $8000 on his lot at the moment. I wouldn't really call it boring to drive, that engine has plenty of pep, and is so tractable it makes up for it, as long as you don't want to win every traffic light grand prix.

    Something to think about anyway
    Derek
    Why a 405's still worth silly $$$... 8grand, good grief you could buy a good BX16valve for that ... After all a 405 is just a BX without the much more usable hatchback design and no **proper** suspension. (after all a 405 would be a fantastic car if it had a hatchback and hydraulic suspension ).

    Can't see a problem with a 306, though it's a tiny replacement for a 7seater wagon. BTW: Have you seen the CX2500 8seater wagon for sale on this board Those wagons are brilliant, we had one for years when I was a kid.

    seeya,
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  5. #5
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I wouldn't drive a 16 V as a daily driver...no way!
    I have one and the worst part of driving that car is as a commuter/shopping trolley, they just don't like it.
    Chris M has one that I reckon he'd sell within the price range you mention & that car has been maintained to perfection but the reason he wants to sell it is because he has been using it as a daily driver and in traffic and as such it's a waste of a good car. I absolutely love mine on open road running an when we delivered the CX last weekend, the 5 hour round trip was like a trip to the shop; fantastic.
    FWIW, the best buy I've seen for a while is presently in Sydney if it's half as good as it sounds.

    CITROEN BX19 TZI
    1992 model, Silver, air conditioned, power steering, central locking, log books, 2nd owner, very good condition $3500 or near offer SST-432 SYLVANIA 0423-02 3406

    We have the identical car belonging to one of my sons. His is a 5 speed manual, this one doesn't say what it is in that department but they are a good little auto & if used in the City more of a + than a - anyway.
    His performs slightly below the 16V, rides better and handles almost as good. It is mega reliable & ultra economical and gets about 7.5L/100klms on a run & about 9 - 10L/100klms around town.
    It was a Tri auto that Chris had before the 16V that sold him on the BX in the first place so they are no slouch and definitely have a feel all of their own.
    I can't speak for the Xantias but I know overseas there have been a few instances of guys bailing out of their BXs & into Xantias only to reappear later with a good BX and commenting on what their preference was.
    This is Adrian's car. You'll find more pics of it in the members gallery.




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  6. #6
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    or you could go way off beam and pick up the 604 for sale in QLD at the moment for $6700

    apparently in very good condition (which it would want to be for the price)

    effortless cruising and no one in their right mind would try and pick on one in traffic especially if you have a tow bar on the back of it

    it's amazing how people just seem to move out of the way when you are driving one of these things
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I wouldn't drive a 16 V as a daily driver...no way!
    I have one and the worst part of driving that car is as a commuter/shopping trolley, they just don't like it.
    Chris M has one that I reckon he'd sell within the price range you mention & that car has been maintained to perfection but the reason he wants to sell it is because he has been using it as a daily driver and in traffic and as such it's a waste of a good car. I absolutely love mine on open road running an when we delivered the CX last weekend, the 5 hour round trip was like a trip to the shop; fantastic.
    FWIW, the best buy I've seen for a while is presently in Sydney if it's half as good as it sounds.

    CITROEN BX19 TZI
    1992 model, Silver, air conditioned, power steering, central locking, log books, 2nd owner, very good condition $3500 or near offer SST-432 SYLVANIA 0423-02 3406

    We have the identical car belonging to one of my sons. His is a 5 speed manual, this one doesn't say what it is in that department but they are a good little auto & if used in the City more of a + than a - anyway.
    His performs slightly below the 16V, rides better and handles almost as good. It is mega reliable & ultra economical and gets about 7.5L/100klms on a run & about 9 - 10L/100klms around town.
    It was a Tri auto that Chris had before the 16V that sold him on the BX in the first place so they are no slouch and definitely have a feel all of their own.
    I can't speak for the Xantias but I know overseas there have been a few instances of guys bailing out of their BXs & into Xantias only to reappear later with a good BX and commenting on what their preference was.
    This is Adrian's car. You'll find more pics of it in the members gallery.




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    Alan S
    Alan,

    in the UK a Xantia is a BIG car. They sell 'em with 1.6 and 1.8 litre motors, if I lived in a cramped little city I can assure you I'd take a 1.9litre BX over a 1.6 Xantia (BTW: The Xantia has a much better turning circle that the BX)

    Xantias are built like a brick sh!thouse. MUCH BETTER than a BX, really there's simply no comparison in the quality of the fittings used. The VSX model I have handles brilliantly, rides well and has no rattles at 120,000kms.

    The ONLY thing the BX has over it is it weighs less and ie: is nippier/quicker. Ang loves her new Xantia, though keeps driving the bloody BX 'cos she likes how nippy it is, she reckons no-one can pass her when she's driving the BX (but reckons it handles like crap compared to her Xantia. --Which is a fair statement, the Xantia has good tires, the BX has michelins that are starting to look like racing slicks ).

    If you get a Xantia, just avoid the slugomatics, they are a much nicer car with a proper gearbox in them.

    Alan go take a Xantia for a spin, I don't care if it's the lowest powered slugomatic, you'll still see what I mean by the ride/handling comprimise. Pitty the steering isn't daravi ... The way Citroen steering gets more and more undergeared with each model really sux

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I suppose it's a case of horses for courses but why opt for a "cheap" Xantia particularly an early model one that I've heard (like all cars) had some problems when for less money due to age & model, you can buy a well priced BX much cheaper & one of the last of the models which were far better built than the earlier ones (same story of early models problems again) and as a bonus have a plentiful supply of cheap bits at the fingertips. After all, if it's a daily driver, you're looking for low cost buying & running as well as proven serviceability and Shaney baby, you know better than to compare a Xantia with good rubber to a BX with bald tyres. A BX if it's even half set up right handles like a sports car & rides like a limo and I've no doubts a Xantia handles well too; most French stuff does, but I'm 'fraid I shan't be taking one for a whip around the block, mainly due to the fact it would mean an 8 hour round trip for the priviledge.



    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I suppose it's a case of horses for courses but why opt for a "cheap" Xantia particularly an early model one that I've heard (like all cars) had some problems when for less money due to age & model, you can buy a well priced BX much cheaper & one of the last of the models which were far better built than the earlier ones (same story of early models problems again) and as a bonus have a plentiful supply of cheap bits at the fingertips. After all, if it's a daily driver, you're looking for low cost buying & running as well as proven serviceability and Shaney baby, you know better than to compare a Xantia with good rubber to a BX with bald tyres. A BX if it's even half set up right handles like a sports car & rides like a limo and I've no doubts a Xantia handles well too; most French stuff does, but I'm 'fraid I shan't be taking one for a whip around the block, mainly due to the fact it would mean an 8 hour round trip for the priviledge.



    Alan S
    Alan,

    the Xantia **is** a BX just a heavier, much better built BX. Buy the Xantia without hyperactive suspension and what do you have

    A BX motor, suspension layout/design, fantastic noise supression, and the same handling as the BX (with slightly better ride 'cos it's heavier). It's also slower (that weight thing again).

    What problems have you heard of with early Aussie Xantias Much like BX's, nothing much goes wrong. Other than the well known fault of the demister fans packing up (which is a 5minute fix as all you need to do is run a new power wire across).

    The Xantia still handles better than a BX, even if the BX has brand new tires. Gimme a race track and I'm sure to get the BX around it quicker, but in the hands of your average driver that Xantia wins, especially on high speed sweepers. The hydractive Xantia is good, I can only imagine how good the Activa models are (I've read some reports from overseas, eg: http://www.citroen.mb.ca/Documents/Car/1.html ).

    Personally I wouldn't drive a Xantia, nothing could really replace my CX turbo, it's just down to personal preferance. At least the BX looks different to everything else, the Xantia just looks as bland as everything else on the road.

    I'll stick with my CX's and DS's thanks all the same. This doesn't mean the Xantia or BX is a bad car though.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    'rambo... a 604 as a daily driver?

    I've been down that road, the wife's car for a couple of years. Never!

    And I'm game to try a lot of things...

    504... yes... every day. Not a 604.

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    'rambo... a 604 as a daily driver?

    I've been down that road, the wife's car for a couple of years. Never!

    And I'm game to try a lot of things...

    504... yes... every day. Not a 604.

    oh yea of little faith

    i use one as a daily driver and have had a few in the past as daily drivers

    they are no problem if they have had little things done like electronic ignition from a volvo and a weber with the correct manifold on board and the electric fuel pump

    most 604's have 2 out of the 3 i mentioned done to them

    they are really no different from any other car but they got a bad name when they first arrived here and that was due to the lack of education when it came to tuning the twin carb setup and people not knowing anything about the twin points dissy

    they are straight forward cars that have a V6 up front coupled to a GM 3 spd auto and a diff at the rear

    nothing complicated

    excpet for the motor they are the same as a 504 with a few luxuries in them and the motor is nothing complicated it's just a very strong V6

    i have had a lot of experience with 604's over the years and the one i am running now still has twin points on it and the car starts very well and runs nicely

    when the points wear out i'll stick the volvo unit in there but the other motor might come at that point so i'm not really worried

    i have never been able to understand people when they say 604's aren't any good and mostly (and don't take this the wrong way) it is from people who have only ever had 1 604

    my father hates them with a passion. he only ever owned 1

    yes there were lemons but these lemons were fine untill they were serviced a couple of times and then they had problems which goes back to my point that people in this country at the time the 604 was sold here didn't know anything about them

    i'll agree that the twin card setup wasn't a wise choice by peugeot to put on these cars but they still aren't hard to work out if people decided to stick with them

    they are also a very economical setup as well when they are setup right
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Cal
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    Just buy an Mi16.

    Cal.
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    a 604 is probably much like a CX, that is, extremely reliable in the hands of an enthusiest. And certainly NOT the type of car I'd want my wife to be driving

    Nah, Xanita/405/BX it is for the Mrs, fuel injection, will always start for her, newer electrical (ie: not yet as likely to be intermitant --A big CX problem).

    Infact I think I'd get the Mrs a 4cylinder 5spd magna before I'd dream of letting her drive a CX/604/30year old car as daily transport You just know they NEVER break down on you, chuck your mrs in 'em and they'll be holding her up every 2nd day

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    NON-boring daily driver has got

    205 GTI written all over it.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    My order would be.
    405 Mi16 1.9
    205 Gti (no modified suspension)
    BX 16V
    306 manual
    Xantia
    Xantia is the best all rounder, as a family car, but the least interesting to drive.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thanks for the feedback everyone.

    I looked at 306's - they must have the highest retained value for any small car. Based on $10-11k for a 1994/1995 XR that's roughly 45-50% retained value after 10 years. On the same numbers a mint BX16v is 25% retained value, a good Xantia even less again. This doesn't mean a 306 isn't still good value - it's just not as good as the others. If you bought one from new you would be very pleased at trade in time.

    I'm going to look at BXs, the one in Sylvania is worth a look, the ones at Continental, and maybe even the one at oldtimer center. I'm still reluctant to take a mint rare car as a daily driver, and I take Alan's point that a 16v maybe isn't a good car for this anyway.

    I'm definitely going to look long and hard at mi16s, and get them looked at by PaulV as well if they look promising. I looked at the 405 at Damon Becks when I was there the other day getting the aircon fixed in the 505. It's not bad, just one can get a mi16 for much the same money. A S2 1993 mi16 retailed at $42k, while the SRi retailed at $32k. It might be much harder to get a mi16 that hasn't been thrashed within an inch of it's life though.

    Xantias still look the best overall buy though. The $6k one must have something wrong with it. There's one in Newcastle, 1997 VSX with 76000km for $8950, and another 1996 VSX with 120000km for $9900. How bad can they be for the money? I'll find out by taking a look I guess.

    Barry.

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    Cal
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    Quote Originally Posted by barryg
    It might be much harder to get a mi16 that hasn't been thrashed within an inch of it's life though.
    I disagree. Most Mi16's were purchased by fairly well off middle aged people when new. Most have not had many owners either. Also, it is only fairly recently they became this affordable. Therefore, only now are they falling into the hands of people who thrash them or do not maintain them. They were an expensive proposition all those years ago. Even today, they are seldom bought my young rev heads, more often than not they would be owned by an enthusiast.

    Cheers,

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    I agree with Cal and Warwick Barry... depending on what u want the car for the Mi16 is a top car with a sweet motor with 4 doors (conveniance for other passengers).

    The 205 is a good car for 2 people and a motor that you don't have 2 wring it's neck to get going.

    Both circa $10k.

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca
    I agree with Cal and Warwick Barry... depending on what u want the car for the Mi16 is a top car with a sweet motor with 4 doors (conveniance for other passengers).

    The 205 is a good car for 2 people and a motor that you don't have 2 wring it's neck to get going.

    Both circa $10k.
    And there's you problem, at $10,000 they IMO are overpriced (yeah, great for poeple that already own them ). I'd still be looking at something that depreciated a hell of a lot more. eg. The BX is every bit as good as a 405 in most if not all aspects, yet is worth a lot less... Xantias ? You can buy a '96+ model for that sort of $$$.

    Other Europeans, not much in this price range, maybe a dodgy Laguna, R19 (those things define mediocrity in my book, but still not a bad little girls car). The pugs resale is to high. In this price range a Xantia is certianly the go in my books.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  20. #20
    Cal
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    The Citroens will continue to depreciate faster than the Pugs too. Not to mention 50 times harder to sell, if the time comes to move on.

    Cal.
    1995 Mazda MX5 - 2F Race Car
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  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal
    The Citroens will continue to depreciate faster than the Pugs too. Not to mention 50 times harder to sell, if the time comes to move on.

    Cal.
    Nah,

    it doesn't seem to work like that. Once the initial depreciation is over, then tend to hold there value at a certain value for several years. eg. for several years Xantia values have been in the $10,000 - $14,000 range. Going only upward for the later/higher spec models.

    They'll probably hold this value for several years, then suddenly drop and all be worth around $6,000. What's the big deal anyway, you buy it for less, you sell it for the same amount less. Overall you've ended up with a better car for less outlay By the time you have driven it for 15years, and finally decided the [email protected] of a thing will NOT die to give you an excuse to get rid of it, you can give it to someone 'cos it's paid for itself 100x over

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca
    NON-boring daily driver has got

    205 GTI written all over it.

    Yes indeedy, definitely the 205gti for that money. Best fun you can have with your clothes on.

  23. #23
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal
    The Citroens will continue to depreciate faster than the Pugs too. Not to mention 50 times harder to sell, if the time comes to move on.

    Cal.
    That's an old myth that no longer applies.
    A friend of ours down the Gold Coast was after a good BX. She missed out on about 3 because by the time either her or I got to them they were sold.
    Eventually she had to buy one sight unseen from Sydney. Then her daughter wanted one & ended up with a Toyota because she was having teh same problem.
    If you mean a rough Citroen will be hard to sell I agree; so is a rough Peugeot, or a rough Holden or a rough Ford or a rough Nissan etc etc etc...
    Adrian bought his car 2 years ago & would still get his money back.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    Xantia if you need the space.

    205 GTi if a hatch will do. I've driven mi16s and I think that a 205 with P/S is a much easier car to punt around in the city. HEaps of torque, great ratios, nimble, and great on fuel.

    Nick

  25. #25
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    heh i've got a good cross betwenn both, a fun little car that has 4 doors. even with 4 doors a 1.6 litre carbie engine and an auto i don't find it a slug, it would be a great car if you could find one and wanted a cross between fun and the ability to carry 4 people easily

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