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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Nbn battery back up issues

    NBN's 'cheap, inferior' batteries lasting only a third of expected lifespan, angering consumers


    Anyone who is experiencing the above issues. I suggest you replace the battery with a decent quality unit and not the common crap that is Sold as a budget product.

    When I was in the alarm industry and installed hundreds of systems with the same back up battery we found out the best value for money was this product:

    Radio Parts - Electronics & Components - POWER SONIC PG1275 12V 8.5A SLA BATTERY LONG SERVICE/ UPS/ TELECOM

    Advertisement


    It's no surprise RPG are currently out of stock!
    Last edited by robmac; 21st October 2015 at 09:24 PM.

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    Thats shocking!!!

    Jo

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    That is what happens when a big manufacturer screws the price down to the last cent.

    The supplier certainly won't compromise profit, so the quality suffers.

    When in the industry I could purchase batteries from the "desperates" from $10 up . RPG charged us $25 ea plus in box lots.

    We resold at 30% markup and were happy to use decent batteries to keep clients happy.

    We could only ever get 18 months service life (down to 60% capacity) from the $10 batteries.

    The Power sonic batteries always lasted 5 years and often a lot longer.

    Buyer beware. That's why I created the thread to point out that not all SLA batteries are created equal.

    And yes, I use the very same batteries my alarm and access control system.
    Last edited by robmac; 21st October 2015 at 10:01 PM.

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    Does that mean people who have fiber to a node and then copper to the house don't need this back up battery?
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    God. i just read the article. yes, people are actually complaining about having to buy a $31.95 battery. less than half of 1 months broadband connection fee. probably have to sell the children.

    question: if installations post mid 2014 dont even have the battery, can one simply choose to not replace the pre mid 2014 battery when it dies?

    interestingly, i feel fairly sure that one of the FTTP model advantages touted by someone here, was that it wouldnt need a vast number of back up batteries (in the nodes) to keep it operating during power outages. that, apparently, seems to be not quite true, as you need a battery in every house now, to keep the phone operating in a power outage. unlike the old full copper network which was self powered and kept going despite the local power outage. oh, the bodges to which you must resort when you install a quick n easy solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    interestingly, i feel fairly sure that one of the FTTP model advantages touted by someone here, was that it wouldnt need a vast number of back up batteries (in the nodes) to keep it operating during power outages. that, apparently, seems to be not quite true, as you need a battery in every house now, to keep the phone operating in a power outage. unlike the old full copper network which was self powered and kept going despite the local power outage. oh, the bodges to which you must resort when you install a quick n easy solution.
    That's my question in post #4 in a round about way.
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Does that mean people who have fiber to a node and then copper to the house don't need this back up battery?
    You never need the battery if you are happy not have a working telephone when the power is out.

    AFAIK It as an identical situation definitely with HFC and as I understand with FTTN.

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    interestingly, i feel fairly sure that one of the FTTP model advantages touted by someone here, was that it wouldnt need a vast number of back up batteries (in the nodes) to keep it operating during power outages. that, apparently, seems to be not quite true, as you need a battery in every house now, to keep the phone operating in a power outage. unlike the old full copper network which was self powered and kept going despite the local power outage. oh, the bodges to which you must resort when you install a quick n easy solution.
    Yes indeed FTTP has no batteries anywhere in the distribution network, ie PON (passive optical network). "Passive" being the key point. Entirely "powered" by the laser light within the fibre, if you will.

    And yes the CPE (customer premises equipment) needs to be powered, rather like the current ADSL and HFC systems. However it only needs back up batteries if you can't do without a working telephone and of course internet connection when the mains supply is out.

    I can see a PON, ie FTTP, having many advantages over FTTN , a lack of street distribution located backup batteries being only one. Some of the others are:

    1) No mains power required required at street cabinets at all
    2) No ongoing running costs of distribution network (the overall cost of which has been estimated to be equivalent of a small City)
    3) Very little maintenance required
    4) Largely immune to EMI . (electromotive interference)
    5) Delicate electronic equipment not located in an aggressive, exhaust fume ridden atmosphere with wide temperature variation

    Also with FTTN, the failure of a back battery or node power supply can be pretty serious, because a node "going down", potentially impacts on a few dozen consumers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    Also with FTTN, the failure of a back battery or node power supply can be pretty serious, because a node "going down", potentially impacts on a few dozen consumers.
    of course, these dozen customers wont have a phone during a power outage in a FTTP world, because they will have been too cheap to replace the battery in the house, or opted to not have one at all. even if they do have the FTTP and their backup battery for $31.95, it wont help: they may well be running a multinational corporation from their Moonee Ponds home, but the power will be out, so the only thing working in their house will be the phone. The VAX, however, will have shut down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    of course, these dozen customers wont have a phone during a power outage in a FTTP world, because they will have been too cheap to replace the battery in the house, or opted to not have one at all. even if they do have the FTTP and their backup battery for $31.95, it wont help: they may well be running a multinational corporation from their Moonee Ponds home, but the power will be out, so the only thing working in their house will be the phone. The VAX, however, will have shut down.
    But the big difference it the former case is a failure caused by the network/ network supplier and the latter is a problem resulting from a failure by the user.

    I'll make the comparison of a manufacturer failing to fit a sump plug to a car V the owner failing to regularly refill oil maintain the oil level in car. It's an allocation of responsibility.

    EDIT Nor will any consumers with HFC OR FTTN have a service either in a power outage in the same situation you mention because their modems won't work.

    However PSTN telephones may still work, provided a wired phone is plugged in. Cordless phones, in general, won't work without mains power.
    Last edited by robmac; 22nd October 2015 at 01:59 PM.

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    Hey Rob,

    My NBN battery died at less than 12 months old. I'm currently running with no battery and have been for 15 months.

    The battery could have been replaced under warranty, but I never worried about it.

    My question is if I go and buy a Power Sonic battery, how do I know how old it is. I have checked out batteries ( not Power Sonic ) but could not find a date code on the ones I looked at. Does it matter that it may have been sitting on the shelf for five years?

    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by tasgill View Post
    Hey Rob,

    My NBN battery died at less than 12 months old. I'm currently running with no battery and have been for 15 months.

    The battery could have been replaced under warranty, but I never worried about it.

    My question is if I go and buy a Power Sonic battery, how do I know how old it is. I have checked out batteries ( not Power Sonic ) but could not find a date code on the ones I looked at. Does it matter that it may have been sitting on the shelf for five years?

    Terry
    Since RPG are (or were) out of stock, I could almost bet my left one that the next batch will be fresh.

    These kind of batteries handle self discharge better than most and accordingly are pretty good staying healthy on the shelf.

    We had many of them lasted 7 years or more in "mild service". A few extended power outages and run to zero scenarios won't help them much 'tho.

    But I don't need to tell you this - based on your experience with exchanges./ batteries.

    Any >3year old SLA battery should not be Sold as a new battery. My mate in the battery place used to sell such wheel chair batteries for next to nothing with "factory second engraved on them". This became necessary because he faced warranty replacement claims from purchasers.

    Buy batteries from a company that sells heaps is the best option.

    Power Sonic offer this info:
    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...05841590,d.dGY

    Don't buy batteries like this one - 9 months old !

    Nbn battery back up issues-batt-01.jpg

    Nbn battery back up issues-batt-02.jpg
    Last edited by robmac; 23rd October 2015 at 04:04 PM.

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    Reference picture in link above, the NBN equipment on my daughter's wall does not have any lights, slots, bells or whistles as shown in that picture. it is a plain white unit measuring about 250 x 250 x 55 mm with only the logo "NBN" embossed on it. It was installed early 2015. Would anyone know if this version has the backup battery, or would it be the optional non-battery unit?

    It has two white cables out the bottom, one for AC power, one to the modem, which was supplied by Dodo.

    And my second question, how does one know the backup battery has failed (assuming there is one installed)?

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman View Post
    Reference picture in link above, the NBN equipment on my daughter's wall does not have any lights, slots, bells or whistles as shown in that picture. it is a plain white unit measuring about 250 x 250 x 55 mm with only the logo "NBN" embossed on it. It was installed early 2015. Would anyone know if this version has the backup battery, or would it be the optional non-battery unit?

    It has two white cables out the bottom, one for AC power, one to the modem, which was supplied by Dodo.

    And my second question, how does one know the backup battery has failed (assuming there is one installed)?

    Thanks.
    This unit is likely to be the "poverty pack edition" of the original NBNCo power supply. Mandated by Abbot, Turnbull and the financial lynch mob sent in to crucify the NBNCo.

    1. To check if it has battery turn off the mains and see the NTD (fibre modem) still has lights on it/ works.

    2. To check condition of battery leave the power off for around 4 hours and check if your service works.

    However if the battery is already stuffed test 1 is inconclusive and test 2 impossible.

    In that case If you are game, I would be, remove the cover of the device that plugs into power (power supply case) and check for a battery and by that time you will know it needs replacing. Or not depending if it present.

    The dodo labelled unit is for telephones or is a router wireless access point yes ? And dodo is you ISP ?

    To be on Fibre NBN connection you must of the devices shown on the RHS of you link, that is the fibre modem. If yo u ain't got that it's not a NBN service !
    Last edited by robmac; 23rd October 2015 at 07:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman View Post
    Reference picture in link above, the NBN equipment on my daughter's wall does not have any lights, slots, bells or whistles as shown in that picture. it is a plain white unit measuring about 250 x 250 x 55 mm with only the logo "NBN" embossed on it. It was installed early 2015. Would anyone know if this version has the backup battery, or would it be the optional non-battery unit?

    It has two white cables out the bottom, one for AC power, one to the modem, which was supplied by Dodo.

    And my second question, how does one know the backup battery has failed (assuming there is one installed)?

    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    This unit is likely to be the "poverty pack edition" of the original NBNCo power supply. Mandated by Abbot, Turnbull and the financial lynch mob sent in to crucify the NBNCo.

    1. To check if it has battery turn off the mains and see the NTD (fibre modem) still has lights on it/ works.

    2. To check condition of battery leave the power off for around 4 hours and check if your service works.

    However if the battery is already stuffed test 1 is inconclusive and test 2 impossible.

    In that case If you are game, I would be, remove the cover of the device that plugs into power (power supply case) and check for a battery and by that time you will know it needs replacing. Or not depending if it present.

    The dodo labelled unit is for telephones or is a router wireless access point yes ? And dodo is you ISP ?

    To be on Fibre NBN connection you must of the devices shown on the RHS of you link, that is the fibre modem. If yo u ain't got that it's not a NBN service !
    There are two boxes with the NBN

    1) The NTD which you hook your WIFI modem to and the fibre cable is also plugged into

    2) USP (Uninterruptable Power Supply) which contains the back up battery.

    I can post pics of my setup if you like.
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    The image has been posted in post #13.

    Yes the NTD or fibre modem will have the router connected via UNI (user network interface) D port 1

    The power supply is only a UPS (uninterruptable power supply)when a battery is fitted and in good condition.

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    Picked up a Power Sonic Battery this morning, $37.

    These have a date code on them, mine was built in May this year.

    The Genesis that was fitted was built 1st Feb 2013. Fitted 29 August 2013. Died June 2014.

    Battery backup is really not needed as very few ppl have a phone that will operate when the power goes out. I heard somewhere that battery backed up cordless phones are now available though.

    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman View Post
    Reference picture in link above, the NBN equipment on my daughter's wall does not have any lights, slots, bells or whistles as shown in that picture. it is a plain white unit measuring about 250 x 250 x 55 mm with only the logo "NBN" embossed on it. It was installed early 2015. Would anyone know if this version has the backup battery, or would it be the optional non-battery unit? It has two white cables out the bottom, one for AC power, one to the modem, which was supplied by Dodo.
    And my second question, how does one know the backup battery has failed (assuming there is one installed)?
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    This unit is likely to be the "poverty pack edition" of the original NBNCo power supply. Mandated by Abbot, Turnbull and the financial lynch mob sent in to crucify the NBNCo.
    ..............................................
    The dodo labelled unit is for telephones or is a router wireless access point yes ? And dodo is you ISP ?
    To be on Fibre NBN connection you must of the devices shown on the RHS of you link, that is the fibre modem. If yo u ain't got that it's not a NBN service !
    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    There are two boxes with the NBN
    1) The NTD which you hook your WIFI modem to and the fibre cable is also plugged into
    2) USP (Uninterruptable Power Supply) which contains the back up battery.
    I can post pics of my setup if you like.
    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The image has been posted in post #13.
    Yes the NTD or fibre modem will have the router connected via UNI (user network interface) D port 1
    The power supply is only a UPS (uninterruptable power supply)when a battery is fitted and in good condition.

    Just for information of anyone, I have had a chance to go back and get a photo of daughters NBN connection hardware.
    Rob, yes, it appears to be the poverty pack with no battery backup, and only one NBN supplied box, just for clarification.
    As can be seen this one box is connected directly to the Dodo supplied modem.
    It is definitely an NBN connection.
    It was installed earlier this year, maybe Mar-April.

    Interesting that another family member had an NBN connection completed last week, with both boxes as shown in other installations in previous posts, indicating there is no standard procedure.

    So I never need to worry about daughter telling me her battery has failed, but sure to have a call from bro-in-law when his gives up the ghost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman View Post
    Just for information of anyone, I have had a chance to go back and get a photo of daughters NBN connection hardware.
    Rob, yes, it appears to be the poverty pack with no battery backup, and only one NBN supplied box, just for clarification.
    As can be seen this one box is connected directly to the Dodo supplied modem.
    It is definitely an NBN connection.
    It was installed earlier this year, maybe Mar-April.

    Interesting that another family member had an NBN connection completed last week, with both boxes as shown in other installations in previous posts, indicating there is no standard procedure.

    So I never need to worry about daughter telling me her battery has failed, but sure to have a call from bro-in-law when his gives up the ghost.

    Is the "single box" install fibre or perhaps fixed wireless?

    The NBN doco and preparation instruction definitely detail the powers supply as a separate box to the modem

    http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/...s-and-mdus.pdf

    PDF page 22 shows the two alternative layout for p/s and modem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Is the "single box" install fibre or perhaps fixed wireless?
    The NBN doco and preparation instruction definitely detail the powers supply as a separate box to the modem
    http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/...s-and-mdus.pdf
    PDF page 22 shows the two alternative layout for p/s and modem.
    Definitely fibre to the home - pic attached on outside of wall behind the internal box - this was the first area in Perth to be connected, early 2014. But the final connection wasn't done until 2015 - she waited till the death-knock to make a decision!

    The new one in my bro-in-law's house has the same NTD box (as my daughter's) but has the "older" UPS style box mounted next to it as a power supply. The new NTD box is different, looks much plainer, flimsier and cheaper! (NTD = Network Termination Device as in your pdf link pg 30).

    Looks like they have come up with a combined power supply and NTD with the UPS battery deleted from the system. Possibly that is what Dodo choose to make it cheaper? My bro-in-law has Westnet which seems to be a more "salubrious" ISP and may choose to have the UPS - there was no choice given.

    Note that on pg 24 diagrams, they use the word "optional" on the PS.

    Thanks for the links, I don't like mysterious stuff lurking about.
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    COL
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    The whole setup is very amateurish, from what I have seen. You would think the installation would of come in a nice neat polycarbonate box, which coincidently is available but a little expensive if you buy one from the wholesalers.

    NBN or FttP Enclosure for Greenfield Applications

    Considering the size of the NBN project you think the NBN Co would get these boxes at a very discounted price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    The whole setup is very amateurish, from what I have seen. You would think the installation would of come in a nice neat polycarbonate box, which coincidently is available but a little expensive if you buy one from the wholesalers.

    NBN or FttP Enclosure for Greenfield Applications

    Considering the size of the NBN project you think the NBN Co would get these boxes at a very discounted price.
    The Customer supplied equipment is quite different to what the NBNCo provide.

    The link shows (CSE)Customer supplied equipment, think a box that covers up the NBN co equipment and provides a termination panel that an electrician can hook up to few data points.

    So, yes , you can save a few dollars and cobble up your own CSE box.

    This box is an optional item and customers are free to roll their own or have the data points hooked up Christmas tree style.

    NBNCo supply the point of entry box, the fibre patch cable, fibre modem and power supply and will locate them in the most convenient location for the installer.

    Here is my own personal version of the CSE box, for a fibre NBN install, which us never likely happen in our area while Turnbull and his mob are in power. Box is from Ebay , data points done as part of house wiring, at a cost of less that $70.00 all up.


    Nbn battery back up issues-nbnn-01.jpg


    Nbn battery back up issues-nbn02.jpg

    The equipment to the right is not NBN related.

    As with Telsra, Electricity suppliers, Gas Suppliers, they will supply the minimum equipment to safely perform the task at hand and after all NBNCo are already getting their bum kicked to reduce costs. So the last thing they need to supply is a gold plated mousetrap by way of a fancy Poltycarb box for free.

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    AFAIK,Turnbull and his mob don't stop anybody to have fiber to their home as long as it is in the area?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    AFAIK,Turnbull and his mob don't stop anybody to have fiber to their home as long as it is in the area?
    It won't be in our area. So it's off limits for us entirely. Our area will be HFC. The cost of "upgrade and out of area connections" will be made prohibitive because the hassle of providing "back office" management software connections to few "orphans" amidst "standard" technology.

    A block of units or a school campus may be feasible, but single premises - I doubt will be affordable. Time will tell.

    I real terms I couldn't give a stuff , Telstra already provide me a ultra stable, low latency and jitter free 100 mbbps+ HFC connection, I doubt that NBNCo will be able to do any better at the price.

    Nbn battery back up issues-speed-test.jpg

    My real concern is that NBNCo will stuff the whole lot up when they takeover and merge Telstra and Optus hfc networks, by upping the contention ratio to ridiculous levels. Roll on docsis 3.1 and the Arris upgrade to the HFC network.
    Last edited by robmac; 13th November 2015 at 11:14 AM.
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    Our external box was installed last week, and it's a bloody rush job, that's for sure. I'm sure a better job could have been done in the same amount of time with a little car and attention, but you get what you pay for.

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