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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default France and diesels

    Since the thread on the VW effect in France was highjacked there have been several developments.
    No evidence has emerged that any other manufacturer has fudged the pollution tests. The share prices of PSA and Renault are recovering but the causes are no masked by the market uncertainties caused primarily by the Chinese correction.

    However the mix of cars being purchased has shifted. Only 46% of the cars sold in France since January are diesels compared with 53% in 2014 and 64% in 2012. Petrol engined cars now account for over 50% of sales for the first time in fifteen years.

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    SMM
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    I have a friend who used to work for Sime Darby - when in France he used to ask the techos why PSA couldn't match VW's output and emission figures. They had no answer. Now they do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMM View Post
    I have a friend who used to work for Sime Darby - when in France he used to ask the techos why PSA couldn't match VW's output and emission figures. They had no answer. Now they do.
    The "cheating" is with one Diesel engine only.

    So, at best, it's an incomplete "answer".

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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The "cheating" is with one Diesel engine only.

    So, at best, it's an incomplete "answer".
    15 million of one type found so far.
    Clearly their most popular diesel engine and probably the one against which other engines are compared.
    Although there's no proof, do you really think that if Volkswagen cheated on one engine they would not on others (they'd use similar ECU's and software would they not)?
    It's probably happening now that every diesel engine is being checked for how well the measure up to the quoted specifications (in a real world situation).
    If VAG and everyone else's engines measure up then fine.
    If not, well a slap on the wrist and sent to the naughty corner is probably all they'll get.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The French government now proposes to lift the tax on diesel by 1 cent and then progressively increase it until the pump price is parity with petrol in 2020.
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    That sounds calculated to further alienate the voters.

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    Sounds like it will work (alienating voters) and thus will be revoked at next election.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The "cheating" is with one Diesel engine only.

    So, at best, it's an incomplete "answer".
    why on earth would you put "shudder" quotes around 'cheating"? absolutely clear case it seems

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    why on earth would you put "shudder" quotes around 'cheating"? absolutely clear case it seems
    Because it "seemed like a good idea at the time".

    Unlike some others, I'm not obsessed with the punitive aspect of the so called scandal nor am I looking for blood because I feel personally affronted by what is unacceptable corporate behavior.

    Frankly I have other things in my life to enjoy and engage in. Rather than endlessly following in minute, pedantic detail a sad situation, which in 5-10years will be water under the bridge for VAG group.
    Last edited by robmac; 4th November 2015 at 08:53 AM.
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    Wouldnt be so sure of that. I imagine Parisians are sick of the smog, and raising the tax slowly will remove the shock value.

    Between now and 2020 most people will change cars, and will now simply know not to choose a deisel. Will also likely drop the resale value on existing deisels in the fleet which might see them scrapped earlier.

    No real pain unless you're one of the minority that wants to keep a car forever, and results in a swifter phase out. Seems pretty straighforward to me, and certainly wont see the voting patterns shift. Hell, they'll probably gain votes in the big cities for doing something positive about the smog!

    Quote Originally Posted by CXVingtCinq View Post
    Sounds like it will work (alienating voters) and thus will be revoked at next election.

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    JBN
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    I doubt that the next French elections will have anything to do with or be effected by diesel engine cars.

    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    The French government now proposes to lift the tax on diesel by 1 cent and then progressively increase it until the pump price is parity with petrol in 2020.
    Yep, the agenda is quite clear where politicians and taxing get to feed. [Post edited for correction as pointed out by alexanders subsequent post!]

    Thanks alexander for pointing this out.

    alexander.
    the "agenda" here seems clear enough: remove the concessionary tax previously put in place, specifically to encourage diesel use.
    ken, you might not be aware of this, but taxes are actually spent for the benefit of the country, so your implied negativity is completely pointless and baseless without a consideration of what taxes are spent on.
    Thanks alexander, happy to acknowledge there is a difference in France, I just assumed that in France , the only reason for a lower pump price was the old reasoning that used to apply in Australia, that producing Diesel from crude was less expensive in the refinery cracking process, hence that was reflected in the lower than petrol pump price and so no need? for tax concessions.

    Road Transport and agriculture In Australia have had access to tax concessions to offset carrying costs, to avoid adding to the overall price of food products delivered to consumers.

    I note what you pointed out in the Euro reports, different situation.

    European auto buyers have been attracted by both the lower pump price and better fuel consumption on diesel cars. About 68 percent of cars and light commercial vehicles on French roads as of Jan. 1 were using the fuel, according to the CCFA, the country’s carmakers’ association. The share had started to decline as cities, including Paris, blame smog on diesel exhaust.
    So you are quite correct in respect to the French situation, my applied cynicism was incorrect given that difference – maybe private Diesel owners here in Australia missed out on the Euro style concessions – moot point now.

    Hope my correction is satisfactory!

    Ken
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 4th November 2015 at 01:57 PM. Reason: post clarified as pointed out by alexander.

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    I live in an area where it seems every family and /or bogan owns a diesel 4X4.

    I would like to see if sales figures have shifted in Australia away from diesel. I seriously suspect that would not be the case in these parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    I live in an area where it seems every family and /or bogan owns a diesel 4X4.

    .
    Families and bogans are not traditionally associated with caring about the environment and the impacts of their choices on the wider population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Families and bogans are not traditionally associated with caring about the environment and the impacts of their choices on the wider population.
    Agreed. It's only ACT bike riders that occupy that hallowed ground.

    John
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    That's what I was getting at - I suspect that here 4X4 drivers do not factor emissions into their choices.

    It seems in Europe, well France as Jerry points out, changes in the perceived legitimacy of diesels as a clean fuel choice has impacted on car sales. Our choice to buy a VW diesel was pretty much shaped by that perception too. Power and economy, who wouldn't want that in a reasonably priced car.

    The question is, whether, if given a choice, I'll get the upgrades and suffer a possible drop in performance and the additional costs associated with an add blue system or attempt to slip beneath the radar for as long as possible. As an exercise in cognitive dissonance I'll convince myself that while I might be polluting more than I thought I would, the young lass who parked her 6.2 ltr Jeep next to me is polluting more. And, the freight and road trains that haul coal and iron ore thru town, and the tugs that push and pull the cargo ships in and out of the harbour and the kiddies on their 2-stroke scooters, trail and quad bikes that zip up and down the bridle path beside our place, well, they don't count at all.

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    And oh, if you look at the cars below my signature and IF I ever get them back on the road (sigh) you might wonder if the Golf is the worst car in my fleet.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Agreed. It's only ACT bike riders that occupy that hallowed ground.

    John
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    From my observations as someone who sells new and used cars, how clean and green the vehicle is has a lot lower priority than fuel consumption/running cost for most purchasers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Yep, the agenda is quite clear where politicians and taxing get to feed. [Post edited for correction as pointed out by alexanders subsequent post!]

    Thanks alexander for pointing this out.



    Thanks alexander, happy to acknowledge there is a difference in France, I just assumed that in France , the only reason for a lower pump price was the old reasoning that used to apply in Australia, that producing Diesel from crude was less expensive in the refinery cracking process, hence that was reflected in the lower than petrol pump price and so no need? for tax concessions.

    Road Transport and agriculture In Australia have had access to tax concessions to offset carrying costs, to avoid adding to the overall price of food products delivered to consumers.


    Hope my correction is satisfactory!

    Ken
    no, it is unsatisfactory as it is all incorrect, though parts of it are oft repeated.

    *the idea that 'diesel is cheaper to refine', is utter rubbish. refineries are entities with running costs, and the whole barrel of crude has to be separated into its components. you cannot turn a barrel of crude into a barrel of diesel. trying to separate the refining costs of each component is a nonsense: it is one process.

    *demand for the various products sets the price of the various products. who would have thought it!? diesel became more expensive than petrol when asian demand rapidly escalated due to chinese industrial expansion (mainly...). there has NEVER been some rule which says 'diesel is cheaper to refine, so we will make the pump price lower'. this is an fiction peddled by people who know nothing.

    *i dont think road transport has any 'tax concession' on its diesel use other than it being a business expense and therefore a tax deduction. if there has ever been any policy linking the price of food, and fuels, i would sure like to see it. agriculture has a concession: the rebate. it SOLE purpose is to return the fuel excise paid on diesel, because the stated purpose of the fuel excise is to fund roads. which, obviously, non road vehicles do not use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    no, it is unsatisfactory as it is all incorrect, though parts of it are oft repeated.

    *the idea that 'diesel is cheaper to refine', is utter rubbish. refineries are entities with running costs, and the whole barrel of crude has to be separated into its components. you cannot turn a barrel of crude into a barrel of diesel. trying to separate the refining costs of each component is a nonsense: it is one process.

    *demand for the various products sets the price of the various products. who would have thought it!? diesel became more expensive than petrol when asian demand rapidly escalated due to chinese industrial expansion (mainly...). there has NEVER been some rule which says 'diesel is cheaper to refine, so we will make the pump price lower'. this is an fiction peddled by people who know nothing.

    *i dont think road transport has any 'tax concession' on its diesel use other than it being a business expense and therefore a tax deduction. if there has ever been any policy linking the price of food, and fuels, i would sure like to see it. agriculture has a concession: the rebate. it SOLE purpose is to return the fuel excise paid on diesel, because the stated purpose of the fuel excise is to fund roads. which, obviously, non road vehicles do not use.
    Your diatribe contains serious errors.

    1/. A refinery could produce only diesel.

    2/. Petrol companies invent products that they can refine for.

    3/. All petroleum product pricing world wide is totally artificial.

    4/. Regarding transport and mining concessions, you'd better check stuff out rather than inventing your own version.
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    refinery could produce only diesel
    I don't think so. Refineries use processes to separate various streams from the crude input, and then blend fuels such as distillate. They can vary the proportional output of their different products (eg alkylation for petrol; catalytic reforming can vary diesel proportion), but diesel only would not happen outside a pilot or lab setup. What would happen to the rest?
    Last edited by seasink; 5th November 2015 at 10:20 AM.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingers View Post
    From my observations as someone who sells new and used cars, how clean and green the vehicle is has a lot lower priority than fuel consumption/running cost for most purchasers.
    Looking at your avatar, Fingers, has me believe that green was a fairly important component of your choice of car.

    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    3/. All petroleum product pricing world wide is totally artificial.
    .
    beliefs like that certainly put your other beliefs, and reasoning ability, into context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I don't think so. Refineries use processes to separate various streams from the crude input, and then blend fuels such as distillate. They can vary the proportional output of their different products (eg alkylation for petrol; catalytic reforming can vary diesel proportion), but diesel only would not happen outside a pilot or lab setup. What would happen to the rest?
    Buggered if I know what would happen to the rest, except that petrodiesel is produced from fractional distillation of crude oil between 200 deg C and 350 deg C at atmospheric pressure, so refraining from fractional distillation at atmospheric pressure above the latter temperature would leave it all as diesel with carbon chains between 8 and 21 carbon atoms per molecule, would it not?
    Last edited by Kim Luck; 5th November 2015 at 07:14 PM.
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