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  1. #176
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I wonder if the lawyers for the Australia Class action get first bite of Compensation package ?

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    Icon5 Washington Post reports on pending US Justice Department legal moves.

    A new turn , that might open up the can of worms on the VW "Dieselgate" issue

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/05/bu...imes&smtyp=cur

    WASHINGTON — The Justice Department challenged the German automaker Volkswagen in federal court Monday, saying that the company installed illegal devices in nearly 600,000 diesel engine systems to impair emissions controls, that way increasing harmful air pollution.

    But at least for now, federal prosecutors have stopped short of criminal charges and did not single out individual executives.

    The civil complaint, filed in Detroit, comes after Volkswagen admitted in September that it had installed software designed to cheat on emissions tests in 11 million of its diesel vehicles worldwide, setting off one of the largest corporate scandals in the auto industry’s history
    Ken

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    it is hard to see how that can be called a "new turn".
    prosecution by some or several US authorities was obvious and inevitable from day one.

    if the experience with financial corporations is anything to go on, the Justice Department will still be coming up with new things to sue VW for, in 5 years time.

  4. #179
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    The scandal seems to have zero effect on Sales in Australia:

    Volkswagen emissions scandal has no impact on sales | afr.com

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    Personally, i find it hard to see how this isnt going to end VW.
    its net assets are something in the order of EUR90bn. a large part of that is items such as Goodwill, and other items which cannot be turned into cash.

    so if the DOJ alone is trying to stick VW for $20bn, plus other fines US authorities will almost certainly conjure up over the next few years, plus car buybacks, plus civil lawsuits, plus open ended possibilities for similar actions in other countries, how will VW pay for it all?

    no doubt VW US is a wholly owned subsidiary, and not worth $20bn or anything like it. particularly as VW doesnt actually sell alot of cars in the US; someone said on tv tonight that it sells < than Subaru in the US. faced with a $20bn claim, they might just be better off saying "closing today. no further support for anything. VW US in liquidation. DOJ can take it all". then see what happens. it is not as if there is anything to dispute with the DOJ, and the latter can simply make up a number and say "pay".

    i also note how it is common to see reader comments on articles on the subject, saying how it is a joke / corrupt / DOJ failing etc etc, that no "executives" in the US have been charged with crimes. big call from people who have no idea at all if any "executives" in the US actually knew anything that would warrant a criminal charge. in fact, that small matter doesnt seem to be an issue in many people's minds. which puts into context how meaningful it is when da man in da street starts talking about "justice".
    Last edited by alexander; 8th January 2016 at 02:33 AM.

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    Icon10 Plaigiarising the plagerists talk fest.!!

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Personally, i find it hard to see how this isnt going to end VW.
    its net assets are something in the order of EUR90bn. a large part of that is items such as Goodwill, and other items which cannot be turned into cash.

    so if the DOJ alone is trying to stick VW for $20bn, plus other fines US authorities will almost certainly conjure up over the next few years, plus car buybacks, plus civil lawsuits, plus open ended possibilities for similar actions in other countries, how will VW pay for it all?

    no doubt VW US is a wholly owned subsidiary, and not worth $20bn or anything like it. particularly as VW doesnt actually sell alot of cars in the US; someone said on tv tonight that it sells < than Subaru in the US. faced with a $20bn claim, they might just be better off saying "closing today. no further support for anything. VW US in liquidation. DOJ can take it all". then see what happens. it is not as if there is anything to dispute with the DOJ, and the latter can simply make up a number and say "pay".

    i also note how it is common to see reader comments on articles on the subject, saying how it is a joke / corrupt / DOJ failing etc etc, that no "executives" in the US have been charged with crimes. big call from people who have no idea at all if any "executives" in the US actually knew anything that would warrant a criminal charge. in fact, that small matter doesnt seem to be an issue in many people's minds. which puts into context how meaningful it is when da man in da street starts talking about "justice".
    it is hard to see how that can be called new news.

    Prosecution by some or several US and other world authorities was obvious and inevitable from day one.

    if the experience with financial corporations is anything to go on, the Justice Departments all over the world will still be coming up with new things, to confuse and muddy the waters for several years, a Lawyers and spin doctors alexander funfest.

    Nothing new in the world...

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    it is hard to see how that can be called new news.

    Ken
    hardly surprising, eh ken?, given that i didnt say it was "news". it is my thoughts on the subject.

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    Apologies for the US news in the France thread...

    From Automotive News:

    Volkswagen's diesel fix plan rejected by Calif. regulators
    California issued a new notice that VW had violated California air quality regulations.

    January 12, 2016

    DETROIT (Reuters) -- The California Air Resources Board said it rejected Volkswagen AG's plan to fix 2.0-liter diesel cars with software that allow them to emit up to 40 times legally allowable pollution.

    The state said today VW's proposed fix was "incomplete, substantially deficient and falls far short of meeting the legal requirements." It also said the fix was not fast enough.

    CARB sent VW a confidential letter offering a detailed explanation of why its fix plan does not work.

    California said it will continue its investigation as well as talks with VW to find a fix.

    VW said in a statement that it is in current talks to find a solution -- and said the rejection addresses the initial recall plans submitted to California in December.

    "Since then, Volkswagen has had constructive discussions with CARB, including last week when we discussed a framework" to address the issue.

    The state did not assess any immediate penalties, but it issued a new notice that VW had violated California air quality regulations.

    EPA meeting

    VW CEO Matthias Mueller is meeting with U.S. Environmental Protection Agency chief Gina McCarthy on Wednesday to discuss the emissions scandal that impacts nearly 600,000 vehicles in the United States and up to 11 million vehicles worldwide.

    EPA said in a statement it agrees with California "that Volkswagen has not submitted an approvable recall plan to bring the vehicles into compliance and reduce pollution. EPA has conveyed this to the company previously."

    VW said it is "committed to working cooperatively with CARB and other regulators, and we plan to continue our discussions tomorrow when we meet with the EPA."

    VW officials have expressed optimism for winning approval of a plan soon to fix the vehicles. They face a separate Feb. 2 deadline to submit a plan to fix 80,000 larger Porsche, Audi and VW 3.0 liter vehicles.

    Tennessee interest

    Separately, Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam said he met in Washington on Monday with Mueller. VW has a major assembly plant in Chattanooga, Tenn.

    "They are preparing for the conversations with EPA," Haslam told Reuters today on the sidelines of the Detroit auto show. "We obviously have a keen interest in getting their legal issues solved so they can go back to selling cars."

    Haslam said he is "really concerned that Volkswagen not be punished beyond what is happening in other cases involving manufacturers."
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  9. #184
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    It just keeps getting better for the Germans.....with more news just to hand:

    https://www.motor1.com/news/174456/g...=recirculation
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    It just keeps getting better for the Germans.....with more news just to hand:

    https://www.motor1.com/news/174456/g...=recirculation
    Share prices at Mercedes parent company Daimler, Volkswagen and BMW have all dropped following the news. The manufacturers have declined to comment on media speculation so far.*
    Typical Germanic reaction to the whole mythical stuff about diesels right from start to finish, so many real facts and engineering versus myths and claims of all sorts of scary stuff that have been mixed into a web of lies and propaganda as nations have sought to find reasons to cripple other economies.

    When you read back over the genesis of the whole diesel and other scares that led to the imposing of "environmental" forms of protectionism tariff nation to nation, and the joint responses from the people dealing with what may well prove to be the biggest scam in history.

    Did the Germans regard the emotionalism behind such attempts to make their products unsaleable in countries that they knew, were promoting such scares to eat into the German automotive sales markets on quite spurious grounds, when consumers in many countries found their product the most economical in terms of fuels used to miles travelled, and also superior long lasting in engineering to local products?

    It is a rather fascinating area of research actually, and at least one European country woke up to the value of using "environmentalism" to destroy another's economic advantages.

    If you read the warnings of Russian defectors, they warned that Russia had determined that the west and other powerhouse economies like Germany were vulnerable to economic propaganda based on environmental issues, as the voters within those democratic countries listened to environmental Green propaganda, they would actually do the work of destroying those economies from within. Interesting theory at the time, but now we have artificial tariff barriers made on any pretext and howls of rage at any who try and provide any rational thinking or realism into debate on issue.

    So IMHO! if this was the thinking of German manufacturers that these were ONLY spurious concepts and not based on reality, then maybe one could understand them working their way around what they thought was emotional rather than factual tariff barriers erected, based on scare propaganda, fuelled by the worst statistical information based on old technology, 40 to 50 year old machinery that was still in use. Mixed in of course with a lot of argy bargy, possible, maybe, scare issues and speculation, where natural weather and smog deaths can be easily attributed or attached to these hot point public issues, and used to and for the raising of barriers to other "clean" products and so crippling manufacturing economies of other countries.

    Now for politicians it is always hard to pick their way through this magic area of politics and political action. We of course want good health, clean environments, but also jobs and all the modern conveniences that come with production and economics. I also like the fuel economy of diesels, more miles for less bucks and less fuel consumed. I wonder where all this will end, given the huge political and monetary investment involved.

    Wind forward 20 years and lets see how this turn out. I have my own suspicions. But then I have witnessed real environmental vandalism and see lots of propaganda to colour issues politically, but not necessarily fix real environmental issues that are overlooked in the political news media of the day.

    For those that want to read further there is plenty on the "net" and lots of fake news in between.

    Ken
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  11. #186
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    The following quote is fairly self explanatory, "Der Spiegel quotes a letter sent by Volkswagen to German competition authorities, which have now opened an investigation into whether any illegal practices have taken place. In the letter, the company has admitted that over 200 employees from BMW, Audi and Porsche have been involved in more than 60 meetings discussing vehicle development, brakes, gasoline and diesel engines, clutches and transmissions as well as exhaust treatment systems." and I wasn't aware that Ken had been hired as part of the defence team!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Icon11 Perry Como, or Perry Mason...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    The following quote is fairly self explanatory, "Der Spiegel quotes a letter sent by Volkswagen to German competition authorities, which have now opened an investigation into whether any illegal practices have taken place. In the letter, the company has admitted that over 200 employees from BMW, Audi and Porsche have been involved in more than 60 meetings discussing vehicle development, brakes, gasoline and diesel engines, clutches and transmissions as well as exhaust treatment systems." and I wasn't aware that Ken had been hired as part of the defence team!
    Just a public service announcement Kim

    Not defending anyone, have read widely on the internet and I have a fairly extensive library of books and of course there is an abundance of fake news, "Intelligence sources" that are not too intelligent , who like to promote all sorts of conspiracies, theories, alternative theories, with and without authority quotes, links and counter links. It's a murky world and then you have the Chinese, always good to throw into the mix, but that is usually a last resort.

    I like the bit about the "German competition authorities" are they like our ACCC, government highly paid officials who have reputation of failing to track elephants through snow, you know that cold stuff that Europe will never see again! and Der Spiegel or Der Spi perhaps..... as Germans often add lots of letters to simple English to complicate things , and if you watched a few wartime movies you would have noted that trend too.

    Truth and fiction these days is what the politico's try to sell us and the newspapers sell the results to a gullible public.

    But a nice article, thanks for posting it.

    I guess "others" will weigh in with laudatory posts or whatever.

    Ken
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  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Typical Germanic reaction to the whole mythical stuff about diesels right from start to finish, so many real facts and engineering versus myths and claims of all sorts of scary stuff that have been mixed into a web of lies and propaganda as nations have sought to find reasons to cripple other economies.

    When you read back over the genesis of the whole diesel and other scares that led to the imposing of "environmental" forms of protectionism tariff nation to nation, and the joint responses from the people dealing with what may well prove to be the biggest scam in history.

    Did the Germans regard the emotionalism behind such attempts to make their products unsaleable in countries that they knew, were promoting such scares to eat into the German automotive sales markets on quite spurious grounds, when consumers in many countries found their product the most economical in terms of fuels used to miles travelled, and also superior long lasting in engineering to local products?

    It is a rather fascinating area of research actually, and at least one European country woke up to the value of using "environmentalism" to destroy another's economic advantages.

    If you read the warnings of Russian defectors, they warned that Russia had determined that the west and other powerhouse economies like Germany were vulnerable to economic propaganda based on environmental issues, as the voters within those democratic countries listened to environmental Green propaganda, they would actually do the work of destroying those economies from within. Interesting theory at the time, but now we have artificial tariff barriers made on any pretext and howls of rage at any who try and provide any rational thinking or realism into debate on issue.

    So IMHO! if this was the thinking of German manufacturers that these were ONLY spurious concepts and not based on reality, then maybe one could understand them working their way around what they thought was emotional rather than factual tariff barriers erected, based on scare propaganda, fuelled by the worst statistical information based on old technology, 40 to 50 year old machinery that was still in use. Mixed in of course with a lot of argy bargy, possible, maybe, scare issues and speculation, where natural weather and smog deaths can be easily attributed or attached to these hot point public issues, and used to and for the raising of barriers to other "clean" products and so crippling manufacturing economies of other countries.

    Ken
    Regardless if the emission regulations were the result of a genuine concern for the environment or whether they are just a non-tariff trade barrier, they are in force and must be complied with. A non-trade barrier is pretty far-fetched as the biggest threat to the Germans is coming from Asia, not the US car makers. All vehicles regardless or whether they're produced domestically or imported have to comply. When has 'I don't like that law so I won't comply' ever been an acceptable defence.

    It is arrogance in the extreme if the German manufacturers simply dismissed the regs as 'spurious' and just bodgy up some software to get round them, e.g. VW/AUDI/SKODA etc. (Arrogance and German in the same sentence, who would have thought).

    If they don't like the regulations then don't sell in that market. You don't hear of Japanese, Chinese, Korean, or other car manufacturers dismissing regulations as 'spurious'. But if you do want to operate in a market, just don't make false claims about the emissions/power/specifications of the vehicles you do continue to sell. Dieselgate has been the biggest recent issue and VAG were able to meet the emission regulations, but this reduced the power. The German automotive manufacturers to a large extent have backed diesel but are finding that this is not the sentiment in a lot of other countries. They might be backing the wrong horse but if you can't win the race, cheat.


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  14. #189
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    RTT, The "suggestion" in some of the early writings seemed to be that if American car production was put through the same regulatory "hoops" they would fail as well, but then perhaps more will come out if and when this gets properly examined IF it gets further towards a punitive process i.e. past a imposed fine, don't do it again process, the usual convenient cover up.

    The interesting part is the widening of the net to cover other German manufacturers, will that make the urgency for a quick end to the whole debacle, the too big to economically fail like Enron and others.

    Already the Americans are bringing in a red team blue team concept where science is rigorously subjected to written proofing (data and work produced, not media claims) to ensure that regulations are based on real rather than made up scares.

    That rigorous process, might stop some of the argy bargy that underpinned some of the emotional issues that remain in the international political sphere and make this a hot political topic.

    I totally agree that "cheating" on any side of an issue, to either produce badly based or politically framed regulations, and/or trying to get around them is an absolute and contemptible No No! but then the world of politics and fact have some very powerful monetary persuaders that also underpin the economics of countries like Germany and Asia.

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    Hi,
    I reckon the whole story sounds a bit suss, coming from VAG. If there was some conspiracy, odd that they never said anything a year ago. Also as only VAG actually has cheating software.

    This is just a hunch and a bit of a wild stab, but I reckon it will turn out that these meetings were legit meetings to discuss industry standard ways of doing things. I don't know if that is how it works, but would be surprised if it didn't. So VAG lawyes are going through everything still, and have told VAG to "fess up" about everything that anyone could raise an eyebrow about, and say 'we might have been doing something illegal'. The first canary to sing in these cartel cases always gets 'brownie points', so I reckon that is all they are doing. Specially as the meetings their 'confession' talks about seem to be about topics not even involving deisels.

    My 2c worth.

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    John

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    Hi John,Salman & I spoke many a time of how "dirty" a v.w.diesel was....an engine cannot go into perfect fun mode when connected to...as we used to call them "the Jesus Box"...unless designed to do so....So very suspect indeed....there is more I could say about this subject ,and much more about much more but it sadly we can only speak a little truth on this site..Trust all good in your world.Sincerely.
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    Just recalled that it was only after lead industry was sold off that the seller told the world that you can no longer use lead in petrol.....So 'THEY' sold us the Cancer Converter.....oops the Catalytic Converter...I have another name for it....but. when lead passes through an engine its form changes....when a Catalytic converter is used....H2S....but that is good for you boys & girls...and your babies....So suck it up....interesting fact..passes on to me by one of my brothers before he passed away....in the 70's...when pollution 'jazz' started...all Ford had to do to pass test was to run engine for 5 min...if it passed..fine...Peugeot had to do something just a little different...after all...we have to fight fair...don't we....RUN YOUR CAR FOR 100,000 miles...if it passes then we give you compliance...level playing field I am sure...

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    You are saying that high blood lead levels in children/people living on high traffic streets (inner suburbs) wasn't a problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    You are saying that high blood lead levels in children/people living on high traffic streets (inner suburbs) wasn't a problem?
    I think the jist is that we are not often told the full story while money is being made and that goes for governments also. Boy the US sites are really doubling down on UK over the ban on Petrol and Diesel fluffy bans way in the future, and signs that UK may slide away as well. What is it with politicians? if you are in some embarrassing trouble, pull out some diversionary tactic but make sure its effect in way, way in the future so if there is voter backlash you can walk away from your original aspirational declaration.

    Ken

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