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  1. #51
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    Icon14 discussion, debate, or friendly conversation.

    Big difference with interpretations - discussion is not arguing, ego or bias, that is competitive debate where one side wins (even if wrong headed) and the other side loses, only because they were ill prepared, or deficient in aggressively attacking the other's faulty case.....

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    Conversation is IMHO one where both can advance their OPINION without being attacked and friends accept that others have different opinions, each can respect the other at the conclusion of the conversation it's not a must win at all costs situation, unless you have some skin in the game. (or it becomes personal!!)

    Ken
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    My point being the emissions are per an amount of fuel as a comparison.....a litre of diesel gets you a lot further than a litre of petrol so this may even out the emissions numbers a bit....The VW effect in France-screen-shot-2015-10-06-10.33.53-am.png
    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    What are the NOx emissions your diesel 307 produces, compared to the petrol equivalent?

    The whole diesel argument (ie. the current VW "crisis") has nothing to do with mpg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Big difference with interpretations - discussion is not arguing, ego or bias, that is competitive debate where one side wins (even if wrong headed) and the other side loses, only because they were ill prepared, or deficient in aggressively attacking the other's faulty case.....

    Conversation is IMHO one where both can advance their OPINION without being attacked and friends accept that others have different opinions, each can respect the other at the conclusion of the conversation it's not a must win at all costs situation unless you have some skin in the game. (or it becomes personal!!)

    Ken
    It's also having an appreciation of another viewpoint and not endlessly writing treatises on off shoot topics which then are loosely bonded to the topic under discussion.

    And not taking faux offence when the going gets too tough to handle.

    We now seem to be advancing the line "let him who is without sin throw the first stone".

    And because the thread is in open forum I can't see the value in following a discussion of this form.

    Reopen the topic in the pond and I will gladly debate the matter.
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  4. #54
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuartb View Post
    My point being the emissions are per an amount of fuel as a comparison.....a litre of diesel gets you a lot further than a litre of petrol so this may even out the emissions numbers a bit....Click image for larger version. 

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    Gosh, I'll soon sound like alexander, when presented with such a vague, non-referenced screen shot used as some kind of argument. How about a real one?

    As the US VW scandal is all about NOx emissions, here is a real screenshot from a UK site: nextgreencar - which shows the late model 307 2.0 diesel vs a 2.0 petrol and then a new 308 BlueHDi diesel. PSA spent the money (developing expensive SCR technology) to actually reduce NOx emissions to near petrol levels.

    The VW effect in France-noxcomparison.jpg

    VW appears to have used a cheat so that they didn't have to spend the money and have not reduced their NOx emissions.
    Last edited by SLC206; 7th October 2015 at 01:41 AM.
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    God forbid!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    God forbid!
    I guess it better cheating to save money than just cheating to be intentionally dishonest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I guess it better cheating to save money than just cheating to be intentionally dishonest.
    meaning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    meaning?
    Use you imagination Hint: I was trying to be amusing.
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    Icon1 AutoExpress take, on the VW scandal.

    The auto express reports on manufacturers wanting relaxation of emission standards - and dates they become mandatory, among other things.

    Exclusive: Car makers 'can't meet' Euro6 emissions targets | Auto Express

    It seems there is an element of intense lobbying, and that may also form part of the articles intent - if one takes any notice of the content of commenters on the article.

    Interesting to see the comments, you wonder how many of the participants are auto industry lobbyists paid to push particular lines. Particularly the fine line between reduction of carbon particulates V NOx the cost and economy, electric, plus other environmental. A can of worms for lobbyists to exploit.?


    Much like the variety of comments on Aussie Frogs - mixture of have diesel, have electric, have petrol, Mine is greener/better than yours - And those that have other agenda - some samples of comments

    Fadyady • 2 days ago
    This situation has arisen only because of the European car makers over dependence on the diesel technology.
    Diesel is a much dirtier fuel and even with all the gimmicks that fool the tests can not be clean enough for urban use. Just because diesel gives more miles per gallon and thus emits less carbon does not make it clean when you take into consideration other toxins which is why Volkswagen tried to game the EPA - after all they've been getting away with these corrupt practices condoned by the European authorities.
    Now that the VW-Audi have been caught pants down they're trying to present this as a US conspiracy against European diesel technology. They've already managed the support of the European authorities like ACEA and the SMMT. Give it time and the German government - who'd been conniving with the VW Group's corrupt practices being well aware of them all along - will join the chorus.

    James • 4 days ago
    Get the stinking diesels off the road, they are also very noisy from outside adding greatly to noise pollution.

    Tancred James • 3 days ago
    You could say the same about some people! Of course, what you say is total nonsense. Diesel cars that meet Euro 6 standards are the cleanest diesel engines ever produced and infinitely cleaner than the black smoke pots of the 1980s. Hybrids are simply impractical for most people and also very expensive.

    Milan Nemec Tancred • a day ago
    Euro 6 can be fulfilled in real-world conditions only with AdBlue, of course, you need PDF filter as well, otherwise you will not pass even Euro 5. There is also other stuff needed, making the diesel cars very expensive = less buyers. Hybrid cars are cheaper as diesel - you do not have to go for plug-in, a simple and cheap MILD hybrid would be enough to start with and can be followed by a full hybrid later.
    Electric cars are nonsese = we make electricity from coal and atom = not very environmental
    For me it is also interesting to see the “falling off” of the suggestive labelling of the natural and essential CO2 component of the atmosphere as ‘Dirty carbon pollutant” that propaganda style label is apparently out dated (but still pushed in some political circles ) that scary element is all but replaced with a health scare inference and finger pointing at NOx as a major causal factor in respiratory illness?, a causal claim some Health Care Scientists and medical profession still dispute.

    EPA's worldwide are happy with estimates suggestive of a connection, even if disputed in come medical and scientific circles, enough to invoke a precautionary principle regulation. Seems though, there are many other factors and might's and maybe's involved in reaching suggested estimates used to promote that precautionary principle.

    I have no problem with that, as long as the uncertainties/difficulties are pointed out in studies, and other political trade agenda are not promoting the emotional plea as a mask to gaining some economic advantage over others

    Regards
    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Interesting to see the comments, you wonder how many of the participants are auto industry lobbyists paid to push particular lines.

    Regards
    Ken
    this idea that anyone is secretly paid to write opinions in the guise of random users on the worlds discussion spaces, is just beyond ludicrous.

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    I have to say this is a very disappointing thread, bearing no relevance to the topic and containing spurious bickering of the inane kind and was definitely not worth reading.
    Cheers.
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    Icon10 Not so secret when they write play books on how to "frame a debate"...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    this idea that anyone is secretly paid to write opinions in the guise of random users on the worlds discussion spaces, is just beyond ludicrous.
    Not so surprising seeing that the suggestion was raised by commenters replying to the article, and if you look at many of the comments, they do have a bias or point to push. In politics it is a common political method called framing a debate, (Many books written about the subject ) where people mostly paid political staffers or campaign staff write in to Newspaper columns to plant comments adverse to the other side.

    The recent incessant and repetitious hate campaign that worked so well in favour of Malcolm T was blatantly obvious as it also caught the flavour of the social media who sang to the tune, ignore anything positive and emphasize the negative and that sort of framing proves itself to work as T Abbott would agree.

    So definitely not ludicrous, but I could probably understand you protesting otherwise..

    Ken
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuartb View Post
    My point being the emissions are per an amount of fuel as a comparison.....a litre of diesel gets you a lot further than a litre of petrol so this may even out the emissions numbers a bit....Click image for larger version. 

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    Emissions are on a mass emitted per kilometer travelled, not volume of fuel consumed. All that says is that if you're using a bit less diesel, then its so emissions intensive that its still worse than petrol despite less of it being consumed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Emissions are on a mass emitted per kilometer travelled, not volume of fuel consumed. All that says is that if you're using a bit less diesel, then its so emissions intensive that its still worse than petrol despite less of it being consumed.
    A decade or so ago I worked on a cruise ship out of san Francisco, California.

    This was my first lesson that something was seriously wrong with Diesel engines.
    All over the ship were little stickers warning that to remain in this spot would subject the person to elevated levels of diesel particulates known to cause cancer and respiratory problems.

    Not just on the main deck below the funnel either. These stickers were plastered all over the interior of the ship in places where perhaps engine room venting was occurring??

    I could not quite work out the relationship between the stickers and the actual air vent system, but it was somewhat alarming in any case.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    ...I recall the original thrust of the discussion was "buying a diesel for performance reason" and towing hardly fits that category...
    Depends on one's definition of "performance", I would have thought.
    I suspect that to you, performance is more about speed & acceleration than it is to me.
    Probably an age-related thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by petitepoupée View Post
    Depends on one's definition of "performance", I would have thought.
    I suspect that to you, performance is more about speed & acceleration than it is to me.
    Probably an age-related thing.
    ,
    Probably true. I would define what are implying as "drivability" or tractability. Cars that go like stink IMO are of the ilk of Clio and Megane RS and the 308 GTI. As I've detailed in a earlier post.
    Last edited by robmac; 8th October 2015 at 11:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    A decade or so ago I worked on a cruise ship out of san Francisco, California.

    This was my first lesson that something was seriously wrong with Diesel engines.
    All over the ship were little stickers warning that to remain in this spot would subject the person to elevated levels of diesel particulates known to cause cancer and respiratory problems.

    Not just on the main deck below the funnel either. These stickers were plastered all over the interior of the ship in places where perhaps engine room venting was occurring??

    I could not quite work out the relationship between the stickers and the actual air vent system, but it was somewhat alarming in any case.

    Jo
    I'd suggest that the main relationship between stickers, air vents and risk on that ship was the litigious insanity in USA, i.e. CYA, so ten years later no-one could sue the company for their cancer by alleging the company had been negligent in not warning people. Not that the fumes and soot etc are good for you and not that I'm defending anything. But you have to work with situations personally with big companies to experience it......

    Let's not start a thread on this comment though.... You've had an interesting time over the years!
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post

    So definitely not ludicrous, but I could probably understand you protesting otherwise..

    Ken
    the whole idea exists entirely in legend, in the minds of silly people who cant believe that other people actually disagree with them.
    as if you have to pay people to write diverse and extreme opinions in public spaces! laughable, and more importantly, entirely without evidence of any sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    I have to say this is a very disappointing thread, bearing no relevance to the topic and containing spurious bickering of the inane kind and was definitely not worth reading.
    Cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    A decade or so ago I worked on a cruise ship out of san Francisco, California.

    This was my first lesson that something was seriously wrong with Diesel engines.
    All over the ship were little stickers warning that to remain in this spot would subject the person to elevated levels of diesel particulates known to cause cancer and respiratory problems.

    Not just on the main deck below the funnel either. These stickers were plastered all over the interior of the ship in places where perhaps engine room venting was occurring??

    I could not quite work out the relationship between the stickers and the actual air vent system, but it was somewhat alarming in any case.

    Jo
    don't these big ships use something worse than diesel? There was a problem in Sydney habour this year because they weren't using good diesel but the other stuff?
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    What forum is worth reading in the small hours of the morning?
    this one

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    Icon10 Sometimes irony sneaks up and hits its mark, almost like verbal flatulence

    I almost "liked" alexanders revealing definition of his own posts, i.e. ignore the substance, just hand wave around the edges, but due to his lack of comprehension and lack of any sense of irony and duff humour, he would have difficulty in working that out..

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    don't these big ships use something worse than diesel? There was a problem in Sydney habour this year because they weren't using good diesel but the other stuff?
    Cruise ships & cargo / bulk carriers use Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO) also known as Bunker Fuel. It is further down the line in the distilling process than diesel and much thicker and contains more undesirable particles and often around 1% water. It needs preheating before burning / combustion. More sulphur than road diesel also.
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    Yeah, that's it. That's why resident around the habour complained
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    All I can say is this..when I plant my foot with our 307HDi 2 litre 6 speed Wagon with over 300,000 on the clock it goes a sh!#* lot better than our dedicated gas FG Falcon ute that has barely 160000. Also if I wipe my finger on the exhaust pipe it is absolutely clean.That being said, when we bought the car we were doing over 50k a year..that has now changed and were we to be in the market for a new car I would seriously look at petrol,as mentioned before the gap has closed with the huge advances in petrol engines in the last ten years. Still love that oil burning torque though!

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