508 diesel and C5 diesel questions
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Dijon16's Avatar
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    Default 508 diesel and C5 diesel questions

    With the 1998 406 getting on in years, I have started to look around for a suitable replacement. As it is a manual V6, 2 things that I have become used to are its poke, and its economy, so I am looking for at least those in a newer car.

    The field is narrowed to a diesel, such as a 508 Allure, or a newer-model C5. At the outside, a 407 SV, but they were a bit older, a bit heavier, a bit smaller, and not as economical. Have driven a 407 HDi and was not too impressed.

    Having driven both a 2012 508 Allure with the newer 2.0 diesel, and a 2009 C5, with the older 2.0 diesel, I am in a state of discombobulation.

    Their weights are quite approx, so that does not really come into it. The 508, with 120kw and 340 torques, was nice enough, but felt a bit sluggish. It could be made to move, but only with the application of a bit of wellie.

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    On the other hand, the C5, with “only” 100kw and 320 torques, went like a shower of the proverbial stuff, and that was before sports mode. The lightest touch of the go-fast pedal made it, well, go fast.

    The point of this post is to ask those who have those models, or anyone really, if there is a logical explanation as to why a model with less power would feel so much more nippy. I assume that they have the same 6sp auto gearbox.

    Is there a noticeable difference again in a post-2011 model C5 with the later diesel engine? Do owners just get used to how well (or badly) their cars go as they are not comparing it to anything else?

    Chris

  2. #2
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    My experience of the 2.0 HDI (DW10CTED4, 120/340) motor in the C5 is it has oomph. Earlier cars use the DW10BTED4 engine. The company is now up to DW10C in some cars (these use BlueHDI urea)

    There are also C5s with a 2.2 HDI 150/450. P508s have a lot in common with, and are derived from the coil spring version of the C5. Both use the same 6 sp Aisin gearbox. I don't know if the geaboxes have different programmes. There is a sport mode that holds onto low gears.

    All C5s have double wishbones up front, while only the highest spec 508 does. Hydraulic suspension is in a class of its own.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Dijon16's Avatar
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    Further to this is the fact that after 6 years and 72000 km on the C5, there is no evidence of a cam belt change.

    The handbook says 100 000km or 4 years, whichever comes first. The dealer assured me that this is of no consequence whatsoever, it is a ruse cooked up by the makers to get the dealers more money!

    Other site say :

    All HDi engines without particle filter: 120 000 km or 6 years

    All HDi engines with particle filter: 180 000 km or 9 years

    So anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's.

  4. #4
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    I have 2 service books at hand - both of these are for timing belts on FAP equipped cars:
    Ateco (the oldest) petrol and diesel - 4 years or 100,000 km
    Sime Darby - cars from MY12 (DW10C) - diesel - 9 years or 180,000

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    my wife has a 2.0HDi 6spd manual. As far as performance goes .... There is turbo lag, but it goes extremely well for something that weighs 1.7tons and is powered by a little 2litre engine.

    Everything else about the car I'd class as "average". ride quality is "very average", handling is "average" ... more like a japanese car than a frenchie. The brakes are the standard over assisted grabby junk fitted standard to all modern PSA vehicles.

    If you want to drive something modern .... modern junk is what you get I was looking at a CX famialle and c4 picasso side by side the other day and decided the modern version of a family car sucks. From a usability point of view, the old wagon is so incredibly beyond the modern stuff it's not funny.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
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    The engine map includes a pedal position to engine demand (torque), which is even on the older HDi engines is a "2D" map relating pedal position and engine RPM to demand. I'd guess Citroen have designed the map for a robust driving feel, while Peugeot went with a sluggish cruising design.

    For a long drive the sedate Peugeot map is very comfortable, a long travel in the accelerator only equates to a small change in speed. When its fun thats needed let the engine rev up over 2500 rpm and push harder on the pedal.
    406 HDi

  7. #7
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    DoubleChevron's praise above was for his Peugeot 407. The last series C5 is a very different car to drive.

    One of the things you get used to is the roll and front end weight when you go round the twisty bits if you have previously been too long in other cars. It really does go round them. I don't have a problem with modern French brakes. They work.

  8. #8
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    Test drive a C5 .2.2 litre 150 kw with 450 nm and you will find your answer. Same as the 508 GT but better as the Citroen has the Hydropnematic suspension. It has bigger brakes and low profile tyres ....rides a little firm, but handles better.
    anyway I love mine.
    Remember the old Renault advert .... " be Rewarded Drive it "

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old coot View Post
    Test drive a C5 .2.2 litre 150 kw with 450 nm and you will find your answer. Same as the 508 GT but better as the Citroen has the Hydropnematic suspension. It has bigger brakes and low profile tyres ....rides a little firm, but handles better.
    anyway I love mine.
    Remember the old Renault advert .... " be Rewarded Drive it "
    I didn't realise they had re-released another 2.2. The last one was the twin turbo. If your interested torque, why not look at cars fitted with the now ancient 2.7/3.0 V6 HDi (parts in theory should be readily available into the future seeing as the engine is shared with land rovers and the ford territory).

    To put pulling power into perspective .... The old 2.0 HDi in my wifes 407 punches out 320Nm or torque at very low revs, The 2.2 punches out 450Nm ..... The 3.9/4.0 V8 in the wank tank here puts out 320Nm ................. Well "in theory" it did 25years ago ... and that's if you believe the specifications listed back then.

    450Nm is a staggeringly large amount of pulling power for something that cant tow anything useful!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
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    You're right Shane ....cant tow much.
    Here are some interesting numbers for you to digest.

    2.7 lt v6 150kw @ 4000 rpm and 440 nm @ 1900 rpm 0.....100 in 9.6 secs
    2.2 lt 4 cyl 150 KW @ 3500 rpm and 450nm @ 2000rpm 0......100 in 8.3 secs
    Uses the same engine as the Jaguar. Two stage turbo and its more economical than my 2010 C5 with the 120 Kw HDI

    Sime Darby brought 30 in last year as Limited Editions and they have repeated it again this year.
    They have low profile tyres with wide black mag rims , special sound system, twin exhausts, larger front brakes etc. but no badging to identify it. Hills aren't a problem with all that torque.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by old coot View Post
    You're right Shane ....cant tow much.

    ...

    Problem is the low down-force permitted on the towball. Using the 10% rule, a maximum down-force of 75 or 95 kg (which is the case with a number of French cars) limits you to a 750 or 950kg trailer.

    Towball Weight and Trailer Stability - June 2015

    Cheers

    Alec

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    well it would tow a pommy 'van .... but that's about legally
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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