E85 and Webers question
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Thread: E85 and Webers question

  1. #1
    dvr
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    Default E85 and Webers question

    Has anyone actually done it?

    I've searched the web and there seem to be lots of "experts" but can't find anyone with experience of converting their Webers to run on E85.

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    JBN
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    Could be the costs outweigh the advantages. What are the advantages by the way?

    John
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    dvr
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    More power.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvr View Post
    More power.
    Than 98 RON?

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Than 98 RON?

    John
    Could be. It allows more compression (and timing advance?) without detonation, hence more power. Needs to flow around 30% more fuel is the common wisdom.
    I would have thought some of the bigger issues will be having compatible rubber seals through the fuel system, and getting big enough jets. Otherwise I'm no more help than above.
    1984 505 Executive Auto

    206 GTi 180 - '804 Cat Cams, Jenvey DBW 48mm ITB's, Emtron KV8 ECU, HP Electronik PDM, AIM MXS Dash, Custom Wiring Harness. AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Oil cooler, Quaife LSD, E85.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:40.2
    Wakefield - 1:13.5
    Phillip Island - 1:55.9
    Nürburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I've done the switch to e85, but with efi which was easy as you dont need to change hardware just to evaluate.
    I simply observed injector duty cycle and limited te revs when the cycle got close to maximum.
    A static fuel increase of 33% was a good starting point and a quick auto tune after that saw it runing fine. Maybe it was an efi thing ut I never had any starting issues that others speak of.

    Glad I didn't change any hardware though.....The experiment got canned after a few month when (besides the loss of acrylic paint around the fuel cap and the massive hastle to keep the car topped up with fuel) copious amounts of sump snot started forming in the catch can.

    One thing I'll say is make sure you always run your oil up to temp to burn off all the increased water in the sump.
    If it was a daily driver for trips to the shops etc, no way would I recomend e85.....Far too much water in the mix.


    Dont know about antiquated carbies, but all modern fuel line components sold in australia should be resistant to ethanol and many other solvents used in fuel.

    Jo

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    They aren't! All we get is SAE spec lines that last a few years (Mi16 flambé anyone?), I even quizzed the Earl's agents and they told me they wouldn't warrant any of their products for fitness with Australian pump fuel of any grade...

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    dvr
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    Thanks for that guys. Alexander has also made me a very generous offer to borrow his extensive collection of weber jets which I'll do in a few weeks. First though my car buying buddy (my son) and I need to make sure this new venture of ours is up to it.

    Anyone know if that old clear nylex fuel hose is dissolved by ethanol. I remember it stiffens and hardens quickly in the hot engine environment but that may not affect us and our plans. I believe anything that's rubber can't handle ethanol.

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    JBN
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    Takes me back to 1966 when I had a VW Beetle with a 1200cc engine. After I stuffed the engine, I had 1500cc barrels with dome top pistons fitted. Used to ping like anything. Has twin solex carbs. Used to run on 105 octane above 3000' above sea level (around Walcha where I was living) and then a change to larger jets and 115 octane at Singleton. I changed the jets at night using the light of the last street lamp before the Putty road. To get that octane, I added Shell A racing fluid or Total R. From memory, Shell was 115 octane and Total R was 145 octane.

    I am glad I grew up and instructed my hands that anywhere below the belt was out of bounds.

    I am also glad I got rid of the VW. I did stray in later years with a Kombi and a Type 411 (precursor to the Passat with rear aircooled engine, not sold in Australia). Three VWs, 3 engine rebuilds, two stuffed gearboxes and numerous exhaust valves replaced. Hitler's Revenge!

    John
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    Default No but !

    Quote Originally Posted by dvr View Post
    Has anyone actually done it?

    I've searched the web and there seem to be lots of "experts" but can't find anyone with experience of converting their Webers to run on E85.
    Hi
    I was in PNG in the 80s when they introduced ethanol into their fuels. Carbys were the norm. What a sh*t load of work it caused me However some of that may not be relevent here.

    But I do remember that the "white fungus" seemed to appear in the carbys everywhere. Plenty of cleaning and blowing out. Some plastic components just disintergrated as did some hoses. Not all ! The brass parts also seemed to suffer. It is the combination of the fuel and the water dissolved in it I believe.

    So ?? If I was to do it I would pull the top off and regularly check the state of the insides Some old motor bike books might give some pointers as they played with fuels as a regular hot up technique. They often recommended flushing the system with petrol before putting the bike away. Does that tell you anything
    Jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    I am also glad I got rid of the VW. I did stray in later years with a Kombi and a Type 411 (precursor to the Passat with rear aircooled engine, not sold in Australia). Three VWs, 3 engine rebuilds, two stuffed gearboxes and numerous exhaust valves replaced. Hitler's Revenge!
    John
    sounds like Hitler had a bit of assistance in the process

    --------------------------------------
    anyway, i have done my obligatory 10 minutes of google search to become an expert on the subject, and my conclusions are:

    *carby metal will be fine
    *needle valve might need periodic inspection/possible replacement
    *larger jets required
    *new fuel line but that is just an ebay purchase away eg
    1 Metre AN10 Dash 10 Nylon Braided Hose E85 Compatible Black Fuel Line Safe | eBay

    *fuel tank should be fine, but just for good measure one might remove it and coat inside with an epoxy tank sealant.

    i think this is one of those topics where the common wisdom focuses excessively on all the bad possibilities, but in practice isnt really difficult. i note for instance that there was a time when valve seat recession was going to kill half the cars in the world due to unleaded fuel, but i have never read of anyone saying 'yes that happened to me'.
    Last edited by alexander; 29th July 2015 at 12:09 PM.
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    Yes, there are certainly a lot of racers, drifters, and all of Brazil running E85 and above quite happily, so I'm sure it's not ALL doom and gloom.

    I'm planning to try and build my engine for it when I eventually get around to Version 3.0 of my upgrades to the 206.
    1984 505 Executive Auto

    206 GTi 180 - '804 Cat Cams, Jenvey DBW 48mm ITB's, Emtron KV8 ECU, HP Electronik PDM, AIM MXS Dash, Custom Wiring Harness. AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Oil cooler, Quaife LSD, E85.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:40.2
    Wakefield - 1:13.5
    Phillip Island - 1:55.9
    Nürburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

  13. #13
    JBN
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    My experience with racing fuel is that THE best thing about it is the smell when it is burnt by the engine. It smells fast. Even when you are sitting at the lights not moving. In days of yore, this was definitely one-upmanship.

    In central Australia, they have OPAL fuel which kids even refuse to smell before it has been burnt by the engine.

    There is a lot to be said for the simplicity and political correctness of electric power. You can talk and torque about it all day long.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    My experience with racing fuel is that THE best thing about it is the smell when it is burnt by the engine. It smells fast. Even when you are sitting at the lights not moving. In days of yore, this was definitely one-upmanship.
    I love the smell of E85, I'd switch for that reason alone. The extra power it can make is a happy extra

    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    There is a lot to be said for the simplicity and political correctness of electric power. You can talk and torque about it all day long.
    John
    I couldn't agree more. I'm watching the progress of electric cars very closely. If I had a spare $15-20K for another car I'd buy one tomorrow.
    1984 505 Executive Auto

    206 GTi 180 - '804 Cat Cams, Jenvey DBW 48mm ITB's, Emtron KV8 ECU, HP Electronik PDM, AIM MXS Dash, Custom Wiring Harness. AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Oil cooler, Quaife LSD, E85.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:40.2
    Wakefield - 1:13.5
    Phillip Island - 1:55.9
    Nürburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

  15. #15
    dvr
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    Good lead on the fuel line. I also see "dirt devil" have low pressure e85 suitable fuel pumps. Given Jo's issues with sludge, quality filters are a must too.

    I read on one site the needle valves and floats are dispensed with and an extraction pump needs to be designed and fitted to both Webers. The fittings should be adjustable up or down inside the float bowls to get the optimum level on the emulsion tubes.

    Pity I don't understand Portuguese because there's probably a wealth of info and experience available in Brazil. Can't imagine all their cars have always been EFI.

    This could be fun. The car will be a w/e warrior so petrol flushing after a day's outing would become part of the pack-up procedure.

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