1983 Rear Seat Belt ADRs ( re a 2CV)
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Dave Rogers's Avatar
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    Default 1983 Rear Seat Belt ADRs ( re a 2CV)

    I've purchased a 1983 2CV that I wish to get roadworthied to put onto the Victorian Club Plate Scheme. It currently holds full NSW rego and has in the past been on full SA plates. It has retractable lap/sash seat belts in the front but, as purchased, it doesn't have any rear seat belts fitted, although a set of retractable lap/sash belts were supplied in the box of spares that came with the car. The seller had recently had all the seats recovered and a slot in the centre of the rear bench seat has been provided to take belt buckles. I presumed the rear belts had been removed as part of the seat recovering exercise but had not been refitted. So I went to reinstall the belts as part of the roadworthy preparations to find that there are no upper sash mounting bolts, obviously the ones that came in the box of bits have never been installed in the car before. There is provision though for lap belts.
    Question: Do 1983 ADRs allow for lap belts in the rear? Or am I going to have to remove the rear seat and have it roadworthied as a two seater? I'm hoping not, but I don't know if that was the way it has been registered on its NSW & SA regos.

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    From ADR 5 it was still optional in 1988 to have lap belts in the rear seats if those seats could fold or be removed to increase luggage/goods space.
    406 HDi

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    Fellow Frogger! Dave Rogers's Avatar
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    Brilliant, thanks hypermiler, I'll buy a new set of laps and fit those. 2CV rear bench seats pop out for extra luggage space. Cheers.
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    JBN
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    In NSW, I imported a 1986 car and a 1989 car. Both needed rear lap sash belts to be registered. I had a frame constructed according to engineer specifications. Basically consisted of two 25mm square tube uprights to hold the upper sash mounts. These uprights had a plate at the top bolted onto the roof channel (invisible beneath the hood). The bottom bolted onto the boot floor adjacent to the inner guard and spare wheel well. There was also a cross tube (40mm X 25mm) to anchor child restraints (another requirement).

    There are a few threads on this in the Citroen Forum with photos.

    John

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    I just checked on Gaston, the rusty car I brought down from Sydney.

    He's nominally a 1982 model (by UK registration record) and I've recently received official confirmation that (a) he was registered in NSW and (b) that he complied with ADRs at the time of registration.

    Strangely, the official document lists him as a 1979 model, weird.

    He is fitted with lap sash belts in the back and the upper mounts are pictured.

    They're also visible in the shot of the kiddie seat bar, just below the ends of the bar. (Please excuse the messy interior, I'm getting set up to start cutting out rusty bits and welding in new panels)

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers, Pottsy
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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    I just checked on Gaston, the rusty car I brought down from Sydney.

    He's nominally a 1982 model (by UK registration record) and I've recently received official confirmation that (a) he was registered in NSW and (b) that he complied with ADRs at the time of registration.

    Strangely, the official document lists him as a 1979 model, weird.

    Cheers, Pottsy
    I don't think it being a 1979 model is strange. Just a clever way to sidestep some ADRs. If it has front disc brakes, I would put money on it being 1981 or later. Otherwise it could well be 1979.

    John
    Last edited by JBN; 25th July 2015 at 03:58 PM.

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    John, could well have been the case, however I imagine there weren't too many differences between the '79 and '82 ADRs as far as this car goes.

    It's been fitted with side intrusion bars, reversing light, child seat anchorage points, and even has Aus standard seatbelts, so the hard yards were certainly done.

    Yes, it's a disc brake model with type A06/635 motor. As I said, the UK listing showed it first registered in 1982.

    If anyone has a detailed list of ADR requirements in 1982 I'd love to see it.

    Cheers, Pottsy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
    There is provision though for lap belts.
    Question: Do 1983 ADRs allow for lap belts in the rear? Or am I going to have to remove the rear seat and have it roadworthied as a two seater? I'm hoping not, but I don't know if that was the way it has been registered on its NSW & SA regos.
    from a purely practical point of view, if it was me, i would get in first and mount them as per John's description. or whatever is plainly strong enough for the purpose. if they are already installed and it all looks sufficiently solid, there would likely be nothing more said about it, and you save the engineering bill. if the inspector requires it to be done then you are definitely up for the engineering bill.

    putting originality issues aside, which i realise might well be important to some, i would think that if you have a seat, you really would want a lap / sash belt, as a simple lap belt isnt much of safety restraint when it is actually needed!

    alexander.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    John, could well have been the case, however I imagine there weren't too many differences between the '79 and '82 ADRs as far as this car goes.

    It's been fitted with side intrusion bars, reversing light, child seat anchorage points, and even has Aus standard seatbelts, so the hard yards were certainly done.

    Yes, it's a disc brake model with type A06/635 motor. As I said, the UK listing showed it first registered in 1982.

    If anyone has a detailed list of ADR requirements in 1982 I'd love to see it.

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Pottsy, does yours have side intrusion bars only on the front or both front and rear? Fortunately the two I imported weren't required to have them in 1995. My view is that side intrusion bars on a 2CV are about as useful as a new wooden door being attached to a white ant riddled frame. At best they will probably increase the injuries to the occupants, even if they placate the authorities.

    John

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    John. Pretty sure it's both front and back. The doors are stacked up in a store shed at present while I make a start on the body, but I'll check first chance I get.

    I tend to agree that they probably are useless in any kind of decent t-bone, but bureaucrats just make rules, they don't have to make sense!

    That being said, the amateur engineer in me says that maybe a small increase in strength across the width of the door could act to spread the incursive forces somewhat, so that in a small to medium impact the intrusion of the impacting body may be less than if the bars weren't there.

    I used the same basic principle many years ago when I fitted a rearward facing toddler seat to the back of our Renault 12 wagon. I also included a "u" section bar set into the tailgate with the ends slotted and keyed to engage in a pair of plated bolts in the C pillars. End result was a bar that went the width of the tailgate and transferred force directly into the frame either side of the passenger area. In a monumental it probably wouldn't have been any good, but it was designed to offset potential leg damage in small fender benders. The Engineer who certified the seat installation agreed with me and was quite complimentary about the design.

    The Sons used to love sitting in this and making rude gestures to following drivers. They missed that once we graduated to a 504 wagon!

    At the end of the day, if we started stressing about the safety (or otherwise) of our old cars, we'd never drive them. I have a Mini after all!

    Cheers, Pottsy
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    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
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    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    JBN
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    I had an engineer saying that to comply with ADR's, since the rear door hinges were not strong enough, one couldn't put in side intrusion bars, therefore the car should have the rear seats, seatbelts and seatbelt frame removed and be reclassified as a coupe.

    This is from an engineer who has never designed a car in the first instance, from a country that will soon have no car industry and flies in the face of one of the world's most successful runs of car manufacturing spanning over 40 years with minimal changes to the original design.

    Oh. The cost would have been $500 for his wisdom and certificate plus $800 for the two front door side intrusion bars.

    Let me remind you what the "problem" is. Side intrusion bars do not threaten any other road users nor pedestrians. They are solely of some use in protecting the occupants of increased injuries, though the jury is out on that as the "safety" of a 2CV (like everything else about the car) lies more in its ability to be shunted out of the way in case of some accidents due to its lightness, rather than its ability to stand and slug it out with a heavier opponent. Similar to punching balloons really hard.

    If the argument was about equipping a 2-3 tonne monster with bullbars to protect it from the hazards of urban driving, I could accept an engineer being very circumspect about the lethality of the vehicle towards the public. But for a strange, rarely seen quirky vehicle owned and driven by someone of questionable mental stability who represents a minimum of danger to the public in hurtling this 580kg of metal propelled by 602cc of unleashed fury down some public road, beggars belief.

    Bullshit baffles brains,

    And so what if in an accident, another lunatic disappears from this earth to be sent to hell with a hose to put out the fire?

    John

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'd just see if it passes without putting anything in other than the standard factory setup. YOu don't want to highlight any of these issues and cause the roadworthy guy to look closely in these areas for any reason.

    It's a 2cv ..... Don't crash it. Seatbelts won't hope you much. This is what happens if you crash a 2cv into anything solid at speed:

    http://infos-h24.fr/wp-content/uploa...7/IMG_0799.jpg

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    JBN
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    Exactly. A side intrusion bar has no effect against a safety rail. At least the death is instantaneous. There is no suffering. The only problem for the authorities dealing with the aftermath is:

    Do you try to separate the meat from the metal or do you crush the lot, pop it in a coffin and warn the pall bearers the coffin is a bit heavier than normal?

    John

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    If it has current NSW reg all you need is a Vic RWC and it can be reg in Vic without being inspected by Vicroads .Just fit some lap belts in the back and get the RWC and take the paperwork to Vicroads .

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    At some stage post-rego, I would suggest removing the inertia-reel front belts & fitting after-market, manually adjustable, lap-sash belts. Unless they have pyrotechnic pretensioners (like modern cars), inertia reel belts are design-fault dangerous & that danger can be avoided. Even if you think a 2CV to be a death-trap, it can easily be made less so.

    cheers! Peter

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    I put manually adjustable lap/sash belts in the rear as at that time I had two young daughters and wanted them strapped in properly.

    For me (my wife won't drive with me in that car, nor indeed any car if she can help it) I have the inertia belts as my (big) nose is just inches away from the windscreen and the rest of my face is not so far behind. At 69, I am travelling towards death at about the same speed as my 2CV, and the choice of dying quickly or rotting in a nursing home means I will stick with what I have.

    I do make a point of always wearing my seatbelt as the cost of non-compliance is a threat to my pension. Anyhow, I get more fun out of paying speeding fines as it gives me a feeling of over achievement considering I drive a 2CV. I can only be so generous with my limited funds.

    John

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    Regrettably, the options are not exhausted by quick death or slow rotting; add in: 'alive but with some variety of a mangled face'.

    cheers! (sort of)
    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Regrettably, the options are not exhausted by quick death or slow rotting; add in: 'alive but with some variety of a mangled face'.

    cheers! (sort of)
    Peter
    I agree with John, who is clearly a man after my own heart.

    May also say something about the face with which I am starting though.

    Have puzzled over the same things with an Austin Seven, although at least with this I was able to say to the Rego / RWC types " they didn't have those then" and they were in no position to argue. Could then put on whatever I thought was the best and safest compromise after clearing the bureaucracy.

    If you think 2CV's are a death trap you should try an Austin Seven, although they at least come with an automatic cremation option which might spare the relatives some paperwork and expense ( 4 gallons of petrol in one's lap )

    The point about inertia reel belts has given me pause for thought. Can see the logic of this and it may change some decisions on other cars ( although fixed belts can be PITA in some cars )

    Useful thread. Many thanks

    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Regrettably, the options are not exhausted by quick death or slow rotting; add in: 'alive but with some variety of a mangled face'.

    cheers! (sort of)
    Peter
    A mangled face is not always uglier than the original.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    At some stage post-rego, I would suggest removing the inertia-reel front belts & fitting after-market, manually adjustable, lap-sash belts. Unless they have pyrotechnic pretensioners (like modern cars), inertia reel belts are design-fault dangerous & that danger can be avoided. Even if you think a 2CV to be a death-trap, it can easily be made less so.

    cheers! Peter
    Can you please explain what is the "design-fault" with ineria reel belts?
    roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Can you please explain what is the "design-fault" with inertia reel belts?
    roger
    All belts' webbing stretches under the load of overwhelming your body's inertia. An inertia reel belt functions by locking a central spindle inside the wound reel of "unused" belt. The belt also has a portion that travels from the base of the "B" pillar to the shoulder height turn point.

    So, the length of the belt (between "hard" points) that will be subject to stretch is greater than with a 3 point fixed harness. Thus more stretch, thus your body (notably the head) having a greater chance of hitting something or your body (notably the upper body) slipping out of the harness in a multiple impact situation.

    Hence the move to pyrotechnic pre-tensioners.

    So, why did they ever get introduced? As far as I understand the process, it was a response to stupidity & laziness. Too large a percentage of people simply didn't bother to adjust the manual harness up properly (notably, not tightening it adequately). So, better to have an inferior system in place that (automatically & simply) did a better job than a badly adjusted belt (that was admittedly better if used properly).

    Given the intelligence & diligence of denizens of the A.F. community, such concerns about maladjustment would not apply :-)

    A good compromise belt with most of the merits of each of the above is the so-called "webbing grabber" belt which, as the name suggests, has an inertia triggered damping device that grabs the belt as it emerges from the reel thus eliminating the wound portion from the stretch equation. Klippan sell them (or used to).

    cheers! Peter

  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    My ID19 has fixed lap sash belts in the front. It's an absolute PITA. You jump in clip the belt on.... fire the old girl up .... and find you can't reach the bloody handbrake so have to undo the seatbelt, release the handbrake, then do the seatbelt back up Yes I'm very lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    All belts' webbing stretches under the load of overwhelming your body's inertia. An inertia reel belt functions by locking a central spindle inside the wound reel of "unused" belt. The belt also has a portion that travels from the base of the "B" pillar to the shoulder height turn point.

    So, the length of the belt (between "hard" points) that will be subject to stretch is greater than with a 3 point fixed harness. Thus more stretch, thus your body (notably the head) having a greater chance of hitting something or your body (notably the upper body) slipping out of the harness in a multiple impact situation.

    Hence the move to pyrotechnic pre-tensioners.
    There are some OEM belts that have different webbing or weaves along different parts of the lap sash belt, probably addressing these problems. But thats all before pretensioners, it should be possible to design the belt knowing the friction of the saddles and have an acceptable give for representative sized occupants (but not all). I've designed harnesses and fixings to ADRs, and its no fun.
    406 HDi

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    So, why did they ever get introduced? As far as I understand the process, it was a response to stupidity & laziness. Too large a percentage of people simply didn't bother to adjust the manual harness up properly (notably, not tightening it adequately). So, better to have an inferior system in place that (automatically & simply) did a better job than a badly adjusted belt (that was admittedly better if used properly).
    cheers! Peter
    to be fair, another likely reason is the risk/reward advantage of being able to move in the seat for the lifetime of driving most people enjoy without having a prang where the extra stretch would actually make a difference.

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