Diesel cars: Is it time to switch to a cleaner fuel?
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Thread: Diesel cars: Is it time to switch to a cleaner fuel?

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    Fellow Frogger! Only19's Avatar
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    Default Diesel cars: Is it time to switch to a cleaner fuel?

    An interesting article on the BBC site. Given the recent French Gov decision re no longer supporting diesel fuelled vehicles - adds more weight to the debate re dropping diesel fuelled cars altogether.

    Diesel cars: Is it time to switch to a cleaner fuel? - BBC News

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    It's overdue.

    jo
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    It's also largely irrelevant in australia. As they enforce different laws in europe ... the flow on effect will be we will get any update drivetrains. Due to it's simply not economical to make a different engine for a country of such tiny sales.

    The relative cleanliness of our air and lack of diesel vehicles on the roads makes any changes for legislation here nothing more than bullshit that'll cost motorists many $$$ and achieve absolutely nothing.

    If the government cared we'll all be driving LPG fueled vehicles. It would never happen though as there isn't as much tax on LPG as a fuel source.

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    Icon14 A new concept, no gimmicks and proven by serving the customer -yep

    If it is cheaper to purchase and run as a daily driver , has no environmental side issues AND requires no taxpayer input to get it on the showroom floor, that is a resounding yes and IF people want to buy it, without taxpayer inducements I say bring it on.

    Would get politics and beliefs and greed out of the issue, and THAT would be nice

    Now separating the fact, fiction and illusion of marketing what do we really need?

    Ken
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    As far as I am aware, the EU engine regulations aren't specifically written around engine types, but types and quantities of emissions. It doesn't matter what you engine you produce, just that it complies. If they were serious, all hydrocarbon powered vehicles would be off the list. But they're not. Too much state money (tax) tied up in oil, apparently.....
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    It depends on how you define "cleaner". From some viewpoints diesels are cleaner.

    As to lack of diesels, it depends on where you live. Round here the 4WDs, and the huge fleet of Euros are mostly diesels. The ones that aren't have very large capacity petrol engines. Every servo has a double sided diesel pump, and there is usually a queue.

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    Easier way is to just tax the vehicle based on emissions as UK does.
    No difference in OZ whether fuel Guzzling Bentley or a SMART car, say rego $730

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    Icon14 Wipe the tax, reduce the administration cost and give the saving to tax payers ?

    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Easier way is to just tax the vehicle based on emissions as UK does.
    No difference in OZ whether fuel Guzzling Bentley or a SMART car, say rego $730
    Maybe a reason to demand governments that just impose tax such as yearly registrations actually have to account for each dollar spent to justify rather that just index them as many do these days, easy effortless revenue raising and probably paying over and over for roads already constructed and paid for (many made under private road schemes as well)

    Seems with such manna, governments would have potholes fixed as they occur and we know how bad some of our roads can be when they are not fixed promptly.

    Anyway that is part of the politics of taxing excuses and should have nothing to do with clean fuel development.

    Am quite willing to pay for my new car (if I could afford it) but not support someone else's grandstanding indulgence built on slush funding from cash awash governments and annual reductions in state costs imposed to indirectly penalise me for my inability to chose an "approved product"

    As a government employee once said, the last car sought to be used in the government fleet is the fuel efficient Priuss, but I suppose if all you want it for is trundle back and forwards from home (free fuel and all) or go out and buy the office lunches, then one could understand those micro-economics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    As far as I am aware, the EU engine regulations aren't specifically written around engine types, but types and quantities of emissions. It doesn't matter what you engine you produce, just that it complies. If they were serious, all hydrocarbon powered vehicles would be off the list. But they're not. Too much state money (tax) tied up in oil, apparently.....
    well, that and the lack of viable alternatives. likely that has something to do with the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Easier way is to just tax the vehicle based on emissions as UK does.
    No difference in OZ whether fuel Guzzling Bentley or a SMART car, say rego $730
    In NSW, the registration changes due to 'Road Tax', which is in quite gross steps, based on weight. I have one car that is only slightly heavier than another and it falls into the next bracket, so costs about $140 more to register annually ($484 vs $347 rego fee). Although it's a 5.3l, it covers a very low mileage, so it generates a fraction of the emissions that a typical new and more efficient car might e.g. a city repmobile. The green slip is about the same. Taxing on emissions potential, but ignoring actual use seems unfair, yet there are proposals in NSW to slightly discount the charge for newer, cleaner cars. The road/weight tax is also likely to have more and smaller steps too. Fuel excise is already an effective tax on usage and emissions.

    There was a short article last week (SMH from memory) suggesting the Euro makers wanted a delay in adopting the next round of emission rules as the targets were not regarded as being feasible in the timeframe stipulated, if at all.

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    Fortunately, as a veteran I get free NSW rego for my Xantia. The 2CV I have to pay, but being biased towards lighter cars, I guess I am on rock bottom rates. I don't have any idea of the rates as they are not negotiable. You either pay up or walk.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    It's also largely irrelevant in australia. As they enforce different laws in europe ... the flow on effect will be we will get any update drivetrains. Due to it's simply not economical to make a different engine for a country of such tiny sales.

    The relative cleanliness of our air and lack of diesel vehicles on the roads makes any changes for legislation here nothing more than bullshit that'll cost motorists many $$$ and achieve absolutely nothing.

    If the government cared we'll all be driving LPG fueled vehicles. It would never happen though as there isn't as much tax on LPG as a fuel source.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    TRANSLATION: "I drive diesel cars so don't change the law".

    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    TRANSLATION: "I drive diesel cars so don't change the law".

    Dave
    The article originally posted concerned the UK. I 'd be more concerned in that wonderful place about the possibility of ferrous oxide poisoning as their vehicles rust around you. Like DC, I also drive a diesel vehicle because after many years of hard work I was actually able to afford a new one. It has been a revelation to own a modern compression ignition powered vehicle, something that most of their critics never get to do. I also drove, for many years, diesel powered trucks Interstate, and having driven petrol trucks as well I can assure you that the whole world is better off for the use of diesels. If we were still using petrol trucks Hubbert's Peak would have occurred forty years ago. Refer also to my post #5.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    TRANSLATION: "I drive diesel cars so don't change the law".

    Dave
    yes, that's right ... my LPG rover, CX2500 and 2 '63 ID19's are all deisel

    As I said before, if the government cared about pollution, we'd all have LPG/CNG tanks on are cars and way less pollution (not to mention cost). No tax revenue in that though ........

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    Oh for flip's sake...

    Diesel exhaust is a known problem, 50 Billion euro's worth to the european health system in cancers and respiratory problems. Idiots who proclaim its not a problem here obviously don't understand its a problem when you're stuck behind one of the antisocial ****s in traffic.

    Dont hassle France for making the call, applaud them for owning up to a monumental ****up and making an effort to correct it.

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    There are other antisocial vehicles - some have two wheels. You can't bang on simplisticly about diesels, looking only at one kind of unwanted emission. Their efficiency reduces other kinds that aren't friendly either. Increasing fuel efficiency does more for air quality than anything else, so far as petroleum fuels are concerned.

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    Im afraid you're being more simplistic. The marginal fuel consumption improvements do not outweigh the air quality issues - if they did we wouldn't be having this conversation... The fuel economy advantage is even more marginal now and is no reason to favour them - the net overall negative impact of diesel must be addressed.

    As stated, Euro emission standards are technology neutral - you just have to meet them with whatever control mechanisms you can. The exception to this is that diesels have been allowed slacker limits because they have never been able to perform as well as petrols.

    And yes, I agree that Harleys are also very antisocial...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    yes, that's right ... my LPG rover, CX2500 and 2 '63 ID19's are all deisel

    As I said before, if the government cared about pollution, we'd all have LPG/CNG tanks on are cars and way less pollution (not to mention cost). No tax revenue in that though ........

    seeya
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    Wot he said.

    I'd like to see conclusive evidence that diesel is significantly (as opposed to greatly) worse than petrol before it's banned.
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    Ummm. Google world health organisation.

    Also - not banned, just phased out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Im afraid you're being more simplistic. The marginal fuel consumption improvements do not outweigh the air quality issues - if they did we wouldn't be having this conversation... The fuel economy advantage is even more marginal now and is no reason to favour them - the net overall negative impact of diesel must be addressed.

    As stated, Euro emission standards are technology neutral - you just have to meet them with whatever control mechanisms you can. The exception to this is that diesels have been allowed slacker limits because they have never been able to perform as well as petrols.

    And yes, I agree that Harleys are also very antisocial...
    Here is an article I found in a Newspaper :

    This diesel backlash is completely overblown - Telegraph

    And I agree with seasink completely. Diesels and petrols have different forms of emission components, which is why they have different legislated requirements. A close look at the tables shown in the next link show that Haakon is once again displaying his irrational anti-diesel bias:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...sion_standards
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    Neither if those links support the notion that deisel is not a dirtier fuel with greater health impacts...

    The article just focuses on user costs, which is not issue at play here.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Look. No one is calling anyone evil for buying a deisel. It's just become clear that they're not a desirable thing to have in widespread use and they're to be phased out.

    Like smoking. Whilst you're in the process of giving up (or accepting the extra cost impost for your decision to keep smoking), please be courteous and minimise our passive smoke exposure.
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    JBN
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    I would like to applaud Only 19 (who started this thread) for throwing a grenade into the room and starting the Aussiefrogs internecine wars.....again.

    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Neither if those links support the notion that deisel is not a dirtier fuel with greater health impacts...

    The article just focuses on user costs, which is not issue at play here.
    If you want people to think you know what you are talking about, a general rule of thumb is that material provided by others in support of their arguments demands more than casual scrutiny.

    This is the table I'm talking about: European emission standards for passenger cars (Category M*), g/km
    Perhaps you should look again at the legislated limits for for Euro6 engines in the tables provided in my second link. As a rank amateur even I can see there are very few differences between the diesel and petrol regulations. Interesting to note that petrol engines are permitted to put out twice the amount of that terrible global warming CO2 than diesels are. Shock! Horror!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Interesting to note that petrol engines are permitted to put out twice the amount of that terrible global warming CO2 than diesels are. Shock! Horror!
    Shhhhh, don't mention the war.

    Dave
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