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Thread: Oils aint oils

  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Oils aint oils

    Hi Guys,

    whipped the dipstick out on the CX this morning to check it's oil level (I figured I'd better seeing the last time I checked it was when I changed it 4months ago ). Hasn't used a drip, but the oil was stuffed, I mean totally black and completelly collapsed

    The problem with is the car has only done 2500miles since it was last changed. Anyone ever struck anything like this before ??

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    BTW: I run Shell Helix 15/50 semi synthetic in it.

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    Shane L.
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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I have seen oil go like that in engines that are running too rich.
    I saw this also happen to Mobil 1 when used in a 2 Litre Sports Sedan.It came out black after every race meeting.
    He changed to Pennsoil 25/50 Semi synthetic with dramatic results with the oil. Basically the oil stayed clean, and a bigend failure problem dissappeared. It seems the oil was shearing under load, although in theory Mobil1 has a higher shear resistance than the Pennsoil. Synthetics are not always the ultimate for every situation, although I do use BP Visco 5000 synthetic in my Pug.
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

    The problem with is the car has only done 2500miles since it was last changed. Anyone ever struck anything like this before ??

    BTW: I run Shell Helix 15/50 semi synthetic in it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    Shell semi normally isn't too bad

    have you been doing a lot of short trips in it or are the injectors dripping/weaping
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    1000+ Posts N5GTi6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Hi Guys,

    whipped the dipstick out on the CX this morning to check it's oil level (I figured I'd better seeing the last time I checked it was when I changed it 4months ago ). Hasn't used a drip, but the oil was stuffed, I mean totally black and completelly collapsed

    The problem with is the car has only done 2500miles since it was last changed. Anyone ever struck anything like this before ??

    BTW: I run Shell Helix 15/50 semi synthetic in it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    What are the symptoms of 'completelly collapsed' oil? I've never heard this term before......

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    nJm
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    I'd like to know too. As far as I know, my 505 turns new oil black within a week or so. Then again I have been using fairly cheap 20w50 Mobil oil.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I'm used ot seeing oil come out pretty black. I've just associated that with the detergents doing their job, really.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I've had oil go really black & just sit on the dipstick in like doplets; this I've put down to a lot of short trips & hence moisture contamination.
    I will agree with the notion of detergents and all the varying letters on the can designating what the oil is suitable for is something that may need looking at. Being a turbo, perhaps the heat is killing it coupled to the age & hence design of the motor.
    I know that with Adrian's BX we have been doing oil changes & filters every 5K klms and after the last change using Havoline Premium he put the old oil back into the drum the new stuff came in & his brother did a change on his Lancer & filled it up with the used stuff; that's how clean it was.
    Have a look at this for an explanation of "Black Death" in oil & also what the letters on the can stand for before you decide on a new oil. A filter is definitely on the agenda though.

    http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/



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  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    there you go, lots of short trips and poor running .... It is however running dramatically better since I've cleaned and fixed every contact in site under the bonnet (especially the one to the knock sensor, the ignition is no longer being retarded by a whole 10degrees do to no knock sensor signal ).

    Still 2500miles isn't much, not much at all ...

    BTW: I ALWAYS change the filter at every change. Personally I can't see the saving in leaving a dirty filter behind with your fresh oil

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 15th March 2004 at 12:19 AM.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Try Cadillac oils...

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    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Shane,

    have you considered getting a test done on the oil? It should point out the reason for the black fauling of the oil.

    I know Paul Vasallo can send it off to be analysed, so Im guessing most good mechanics can do the same deal. Possibly ask Shell Oils for explanation why their oil looks the way it does after 2500kms.

    cya
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    Shane,

    have you considered getting a test done on the oil? It should point out the reason for the black fauling of the oil.

    I know Paul Vasallo can send it off to be analysed, so Im guessing most good mechanics can do the same deal. Possibly ask Shell Oils for explanation why their oil looks the way it does after 2500kms.

    cya
    Voytek

    tekkie,

    FYI, I'm pretty sure that CSIRO used to do it as I remember someone in a pyramid selling caper used to have all these analysis sheets he used to get done on oils from different cars showing results before & after he'd put this 'angels piss' in he was flogging.
    At the time I think they charged about 40 bucks a throw.


    Alan S
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    The Shell helix in my R25 is coming up on 12K km (very slack I know...) and still has a degree of "clarity" to it ie not completly black and tar like. I would suspect something is causing yours to degrade faster and lots of short trips would be it (a big part of the 12K km on the R25 oil is big trips of 300 + km at a go)

    Is the turbo running itself or the motor extrahot for some reason (I would imagine a lean mixture - or an overly rich one causing buring of unburnt fuel in the exuast manifold, but that would be associated with serious backfiring - causing a hotter exhaust gas would make the oil flowing throgh the turbo get extra hot?)

    I have decided to stp using shell oil though, but thats because Shell is an evil company I dont want to support (BP gets my vote because they invest heavily in alternative energy research and production)
    Last edited by Haakon; 19th March 2004 at 07:09 PM.
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I was just out decanting the old oil into a container. It still has some body to it. ie: if I rub it between my fingers, it's still sticky (yes, my highly detailed test ). So it hasn't collapsed, however it is very black. My guess is the car has run rich due to the knock sensor not being hooked up.

    The oil certainly didn't come out anywhere near this black after the last oil change at 5000miles. (and it still didn't use a drip !!).

    I'll keep an eye on it, however I suspect it'll be clean as a whistle, especially after a blast to Canberra

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Hi Guys,

    whipped the dipstick out on the CX this morning to check it's oil level (I figured I'd better seeing the last time I checked it was when I changed it 4months ago ). Hasn't used a drip, but the oil was stuffed, I mean totally black and completelly collapsed

    The problem with is the car has only done 2500miles since it was last changed. Anyone ever struck anything like this before ??

    BTW: I run Shell Helix 15/50 semi synthetic in it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    HI, a cousin of a relative used to work for Glen Seaton and he told me that some of the V8 super cars promoting a certain brand use a different oil. He was not prepared to mention brands. However, he said some brands create problems with top end lubrication and others with bottom end lubrication,
    Cheers
    JoBo

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo
    HI, a cousin of a relative used to work for Glen Seaton and he told me that some of the V8 super cars promoting a certain brand use a different oil. He was not prepared to mention brands. However, he said some brands create problems with top end lubrication and others with bottom end lubrication,
    Cheers
    JoBo

    i was once told that they used to all run BP oil

    then quite a few years ago i saw peter brocks pit crew pouring mobil one into his commodore in the pits during a race at bathurst

    so i really have no idea on what they do and don't run
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Tadpole sajica.au's Avatar
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    "i was once told that they used to all run BP oil

    then quite a few years ago i saw peter brocks pit crew pouring mobil one into his commodore in the pits during a race at bathurst

    so i really have no idea on what they do and don't run"

    If they where running Mobil 1 it would have to be after the motor was worn in, from what I've heard because of mobil 1's antiwear properties, it prevents new engines from wearing in, apparently on the holden new car manuals it says not to use mobil 1 because the engine won't wear in properly

    I don't know how much of this is true as I haven't fact checked it....

    But for engines that have worn in, id would be fine.

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Default Black oil = petrol

    I was just out decanting the old oil into a container. It still has some body to it. ie: if I rub it between my fingers, it's still sticky (yes, my highly detailed test ). So it hasn't collapsed, however it is very black. My guess is the car has run rich due to the knock sensor not being hooked up.
    Shane
    Yes your black oil has probably got a lot of petrol in it, this will have gone into the sump past the rings when the engine was cold before warm-up. The oil level may be giving you a false reading as the extra petrol may have raised the level from what it should be. For whatever reason the CX may be running as though the choke was on. The knock sensor may be the culprit, but also check the rich mixture fuel circuit & things like the injectors to see if they close ok and are not leaking &/or always on.
    I have a simmilar problem in my 450 Mercedes with DJet injection (like DS21).

    Good luck!
    So many projects - so little time.

  18. #18
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sajica.au
    "i was once told that they used to all run BP oil

    then quite a few years ago i saw peter brocks pit crew pouring mobil one into his commodore in the pits during a race at bathurst

    so i really have no idea on what they do and don't run"

    If they where running Mobil 1 it would have to be after the motor was worn in, from what I've heard because of mobil 1's antiwear properties, it prevents new engines from wearing in, apparently on the holden new car manuals it says not to use mobil 1 because the engine won't wear in properly

    I don't know how much of this is true as I haven't fact checked it....

    But for engines that have worn in, id would be fine.
    You'll find that almost no manufacturer will recommend or use full synthetic as their first fill oil, not just Holden. A lot of manufacturers are using a higher viscosity custom semi-synthetic as their first fill, so the seals can bed in properly, as well as assiting in breaking in the new engine. Peugeot don't use a specific first fill, but run in their engines on the bench before fitment. You'll get the normal semi-synth that the dealer ha in stock if you buy a new Pug.

    It's generally not recommended to use a full synthetic on a new car until over 10,000kms. Some people on www.bobistheoilguy.com ignore the first fill and throw in full synthetic, without any apparent problems. Personally I wouldn't mess with that first fill oil, it's designed for a very specific purpose.

    As for motorsports, you'll find that the engines are run in on the bench whilst being built, so can run a full synthetic on the track. Also the benefits of full synthetic on race engines would outweigh any wear incurred during the short life of race engine.

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