Phoning from your car in France
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default Phoning from your car in France

    From June hands free kits will be banned in France. You will only be able to make phone calls from a parked vehicle with the engine stopped without risking a heavy fine.

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    Sorry Orocifer, I was talking to myself! Maybe, your Honour, I was just singing along with Mitch. Or, as I have Cortana, I was just asking for the best odds of getting done by the fuzz for talking to an inanimate object! As long as they use the same rules for the police and emergency services, who are obviously more skilled at multi tasking! What a load of crap!
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    After a welcome decline in the fatal accident rate it started to rise again last year. The accident statistics show an increased percentage involving mobile phone use.
    Whether the policing will have much success remains to be seen. Multi tasking in these cluttered urban conditions is not a good Idea. The emergency services have a driver that drives and a second in the cab who does the communication and navigation.
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    I don't see too many sidecars on Police bikes these days, for the communications operator..
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIVEDOOR View Post
    I don't see too many sidecars on Police bikes these days, for the communications operator..
    I agree! If anyone's going to have a prang it should be motorcycle rider who's attention is diverted by conversing on the radio!

    Conversely, it appears 99% of young women drivers have never heard of bluetooth or are unable to communicate in any manner other than text.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIVEDOOR View Post
    I don't see too many sidecars on Police bikes these days, for the communications operator..
    Oh but police and important people like some politicians will probably be exempt, much like our laws. What is really needed is a law making it safe to walk on the footpath and not suffer the twin hazards of texting pedestrians walking into you or the noise pollution from loud phone users in public places.

    Interesting when a country is in economic or other chaos and they cannot fix that, the best thing is to divert attention to some other issue on one pretext or another much like companies that are in serious trouble with their employees and unions institute an efficiency reorganisation and all the complainers are kept busy (silent) as they re-apply to hold their own job positions.

    Common tactic these days and government departments are very skilled in using this diversion, particularly if the problem comes from the bad decisions made by management.

    If there is some definitive research that has specifically identified that as the No 1 problem in France, then that study and data should be released for public and media examination - quite often when properly evaluated, the data and reports contain nothing of significance or just a vague reference to some theory put forward in another country - that is either so small or contradictory that it cannot support it's conclusions.

    Older age drivers are familiar with these faulty studies, twisting statistics or Insurance industry suppositions, based solely on a small number of unrelated incidents in another country (usually the USA) then using percentages extrapolated to the total motoring public to model and inflate their dodgy statistical conclusions to create a problem, that is not, and never was present - or in the limited study has many other solutions than their "chosen No 1 agenda"

    Ken .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I agree! If anyone's going to have a prang it should be motorcycle rider who's attention is diverted by conversing on the radio!

    Conversely, it appears 99% of young women drivers have never heard of bluetooth or are unable to communicate in any manner other than text.
    How about they employ out of work anorexic fashion models for communication - they don't take up much room. solves two apparent problems heading the list in France. . .

    Cheers
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    The French government décisions are based on French statistics benchmarked against the European data. The gross stats on road accidents are released to the press monthly and the national statistics office publishes the detailed data.
    They have also as result of the data reduced the alcohol limit for young drivers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Oh but police and important people like some politicians will probably be exempt, much like our laws. What is really needed is a law making it safe to walk on the footpath and not suffer the twin hazards of texting pedestrians walking into you or the noise pollution from loud phone users in public places.

    Interesting when a country is in economic or other chaos and they cannot fix that, the best thing is to divert attention to some other issue on one pretext or another much like companies that are in serious trouble with their employees and unions institute an efficiency reorganisation and all the complainers are kept busy (silent) as they re-apply to hold their own job positions.

    Common tactic these days and government departments are very skilled in using this diversion, particularly if the problem comes from the bad decisions made by management.

    If there is some definitive research that has specifically identified that as the No 1 problem in France, then that study and data should be released for public and media examination - quite often when properly evaluated, the data and reports contain nothing of significance or just a vague reference to some theory put forward in another country - that is either so small or contradictory that it cannot support it's conclusions.

    Older age drivers are familiar with these faulty studies, twisting statistics or Insurance industry suppositions, based solely on a small number of unrelated incidents in another country (usually the USA) then using percentages extrapolated to the total motoring public to model and inflate their dodgy statistical conclusions to create a problem, that is not, and never was present - or in the limited study has many other solutions than their "chosen No 1 agenda"

    Ken .

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    The French government décisions are based on French statistics benchmarked against the European data. The gross stats on road accidents are released to the press monthly and the national statistics office publishes the detailed data.
    They have also as result of the data reduced the alcohol limit for young drivers.
    see the data and understand the real issues in a french context
    http://m.preventionroutiere.asso.fr/...es-d-accidents
    then make an intelligent comment.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 5th April 2015 at 02:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    How about they employ out of work anorexic fashion models for communication - they don't take up much room. solves two apparent problems heading the list in France. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    I agree. Instead of being a ****** and using your phone in the car, you can concentrate on driving and have the young lady concentrate on the wanking. Separation of skills.

    John
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    Non-exhaustive list of factors identified in accidents

    (For the year 2013, unless otherwise indicated)

    Phone at the wheel This factor is not recorded in the accident statistics.
    But phone while driving increases the risk by 3 of personal injury. Personal injury and 1 in 10 is connected to the phone usage.


    If nothing else, the above information, from Gerry's "authoritative" source, proves to me that Ken's comments are not out of line. If the statistics are not recorded, where does the proof come from? Tea-leaf readings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    You seem to be obsessed by some features of Australian life which I do not understand. I am just reporting government decisions which could affect your holiday enjoyment if you arrive here after July1. The French make their own decisions about their road safety and have a sophisticated accident analysis network using a unit that looks at all fatal accidents and the data gathered by the police on non fatal accidents.
    Now that I am on a real computer, I can point you to the organisations responsible.
    The fatal accident data is available under
    L'observatoire national interministériel de la sécurité routière - Sécurité routière | Tous responsables
    which coordinates the national network and which publishes the data one month in arrears.
    Follow their campaign about telephone usage on
    Téléphone - Sécurité routière | Tous responsables
    This is what the insurers say about it
    Assureurs Prévention - Comment réduire le risque téléphone au volant ?
    note that they dismiss any differences between the risks hands free or otherwise.
    try
    Distraction au volant : statistiques 2014 - Transpoco France | Transpoco France

    Things you should know.

    The main police force responsible for safety on the road and which patrols with motor bikes is the Gendarmerie Nationale. It is a quasi military organisation and the standards of professional training in such subjects as the use of motorbikes, guns and radios is at a level not expected of or applied to the general public.

    The French currently issue a driving licence for life. There is no special control on the elderly. However, if you have a health condition that could affect your driving ability you have the responsibility to get a medical report and advise the Prefecture accordingly.

    Politicians usually travel in the back of black C6 or the like and they let their chauffeur do the driving.

    France like nearly all "developed" countries uses the use of the roads as a source of revenue.
    The car makers are pushing more sophisticated communications and entertainment in the chase for better profit margins and the safety lobby is not entirely with them.
    The problem is seen as a 15 year one only. Driverless cars will allow the passengers to phone as they want and the cities are moving towards limited car usage.

    Personally I am very much in favour of efforts to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. It exposes innocent parties to enhanced risk on the roads and is an extreme of selfishness. I am only able to write this because of my quick action last year in avoiding a car in a quiet suburban street 50 metres from home. The woman driver cornered wide without braking while in animated conversation on a hand held phone. Our quarter has no pavements and a lot of retirees. Had that happened this year I would not have had the force to jump that fast to the ditch.

    That animation is another factor. France is a Latin country and conversation tends to be more animated and intense with lots of gestures not typical of Australian behaviour. I have recently been a rear seat passenger in a car in which the driver, using a hands free built in car phone system, had neither hand on the wheel while making a forceful point to his caller (who couldn't see it anyway).
    I'm sorry Gerry, the French as we know do what they do best. My response was to what I found in your link: APR, site mobile

    It says that at least in 2013, phone use in collisions is not recorded. That seems to be at odds with your later statements.

    I have no doubt that for some drivers, phones are a distraction, along with driving and conforming with the road rules.
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    They are not accounting for accidents in which the telephone usage is the main or only cause but are quoting statistics of the percentage of accidents in which telephone usage was a factor.
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    You seem to be obsessed by some features of Australian life which I do not understand. I am just reporting government decisions which could affect your holiday enjoyment if you arrive here after July1. The French make their own decisions about their road safety and have a sophisticated accident analysis network using a unit that looks at all fatal accidents and the data gathered by the police on non fatal accidents.
    Now that I am on a real computer, I can point you to the organisations responsible.
    The fatal accident data is available under
    L'observatoire national interministériel de la sécurité routière - Sécurité routière | Tous responsables
    which coordinates the national network and which publishes the data one month in arrears.
    Follow their campaign about telephone usage on
    Téléphone - Sécurité routière | Tous responsables
    This is what the insurers say about it
    Assureurs Prévention - Comment réduire le risque téléphone au volant ?
    note that they dismiss any differences between the risks hands free or otherwise.
    try
    Distraction au volant : statistiques 2014 - Transpoco France | Transpoco France

    Things you should know.

    The main police force responsible for safety on the road and which patrols with motor bikes is the Gendarmerie Nationale. It is a quasi military organisation and the standards of professional training in such subjects as the use of motorbikes, guns and radios is at a level not expected of or applied to the general public.

    The French currently issue a driving licence for life. There is no special control on the elderly. However, if you have a health condition that could affect your driving ability you have the responsibility to get a medical report and advise the Prefecture accordingly.

    Politicians usually travel in the back of black C6 or the like and they let their chauffeur do the driving.

    France like nearly all "developed" countries uses the use of the roads as a source of revenue.
    The car makers are pushing more sophisticated communications and entertainment in the chase for better profit margins and the safety lobby is not entirely with them.
    The problem is seen as a 15 year one only. Driverless cars will allow the passengers to phone as they want and the cities are moving towards limited car usage.

    Personally I am very much in favour of efforts to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. It exposes innocent parties to enhanced risk on the roads and is an extreme of selfishness. I am only able to write this because of my quick action last year in avoiding a car in a quiet suburban street 50 metres from home. The woman driver cornered wide without braking while in animated conversation on a hand held phone. Our quarter has no pavements and a lot of retirees. Had that happened this year I would not have had the force to jump that fast to the ditch.

    That animation is another factor. France is a Latin country and conversation tends to be more animated and intense with lots of gestures not typical of Australian behaviour. I have recently been a rear seat passenger in a car in which the driver, using a hands free built in car phone system, had neither hand on the wheel while making a forceful point to his caller (who couldn't see it anyway).
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    You seem to be obsessed by some features of Australian life which I do not understand. I am just reporting government decisions which could affect your holiday enjoyment if you arrive here after July1. The French make their own decisions about their road safety and have a sophisticated accident analysis network using a unit that looks at all fatal accidents and the data gathered by the police on non fatal accidents.
    Now that I am on a real computer, I can point you to the organisations responsible.
    The fatal accident data is available under
    L'observatoire national interministériel de la sécurité routière - Sécurité routière | Tous responsables
    which coordinates the national network and which publishes the data one month in arrears.
    Follow their campaign about telephone usage on
    Téléphone - Sécurité routière | Tous responsables
    This is what the insurers say about it
    Assureurs Prévention - Comment réduire le risque téléphone au volant ?
    note that they dismiss any differences between the risks hands free or otherwise.
    try
    Distraction au volant : statistiques 2014 - Transpoco France | Transpoco France

    Things you should know.

    The main police force responsible for safety on the road and which patrols with motor bikes is the Gendarmerie Nationale. It is a quasi military organisation and the standards of professional training in such subjects as the use of motorbikes, guns and radios is at a level not expected of or applied to the general public.

    The French currently issue a driving licence for life. There is no special control on the elderly. However, if you have a health condition that could affect your driving ability you have the responsibility to get a medical report and advise the Prefecture accordingly.

    Politicians usually travel in the back of black C6 or the like and they let their chauffeur do the driving.

    France like nearly all "developed" countries uses the use of the roads as a source of revenue.
    The car makers are pushing more sophisticated communications and entertainment in the chase for better profit margins and the safety lobby is not entirely with them.
    The problem is seen as a 15 year one only. Driverless cars will allow the passengers to phone as they want and the cities are moving towards limited car usage.

    Personally I am very much in favour of efforts to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. It exposes innocent parties to enhanced risk on the roads and is an extreme of selfishness. I am only able to write this because of my quick action last year in avoiding a car in a quiet suburban street 50 metres from home. The woman driver cornered wide without braking while in animated conversation on a hand held phone. Our quarter has no pavements and a lot of retirees. Had that happened this year I would not have had the force to jump that fast to the ditch.

    That animation is another factor. France is a Latin country and conversation tends to be more animated and intense with lots of gestures not typical of Australian behaviour. I have recently been a rear seat passenger in a car in which the driver, using a hands free built in car phone system, had neither hand on the wheel while making a forceful point to his caller (who couldn't see it anyway).

    In all that Gerry the most significant was the last sentence, if people in France converse with their hands while talking on the phone hands free, I would agree that some French drivers should not have driver's licences. Perhaps that is the real answer. I spent years analysing the causes of vehicle collisions and looking for ways to curb them.

    I think I was quite successful in doing so, but you might be amazed at the solutions that were not adopted, because of simple politics and politicking. Or pandering to small groups who would rather see a tree in a dangerous position remain rather than removing it or alternatively designing protective barriers on account of the cost.

    I simply say that motorists should insist on governments providing all information and data, not just airy fairy authority stuff to justify some ones bright idea or hang up. In my time I have just about seen and heard enough crackpot suggestions from one issue people who for one reason or another want government and police to crack down on every driver because they once saw an idiot that should not have had licence commit some offence, and see it as their moral duty to hound all motorists, even though the vast majority are doing the right thing in their law abiding driving.

    One good test is to look at their driving habits, occupations, lifestyle, and ask a few simple questions, then suggest that perhaps there is more of a problem, there that needs attention, i.e. ultra slow drivers impeding traffic and the safety issues caused by those who consider they are safe drivers when their out of synch driving actually causes collisions, or near collisions.

    You might also be amazed at the people that consider they are safe drivers, but actually succumb to road rage regularly each day they are on the road, if you listen to their families who suffer their behaviour - some are self righteous pricks, when you get down to the nitty gritty. I'd like to have a dollar for each time I have heard, I wish I was a policeman "I'd book all those B's that do so and so"...and next go on to tell you the laws that they consider o.k. to break.

    There is a lot more to fair and reasonable law enforcement in the terms of the legislation provided. Then of course there are those wonderful class of persons who can do almost anything and get away with it. Diplomatic immunity! and worse still in some countries, privilege of class, thank goodness we don't corrupt our law enforcement to pander to that, and the French have some way to go in that respect, especially with drunken driving.

    After researching reports and political papers and data from overseas, and seeing the type of people pushing certain agenda against other road users. I think I have the right to express caution when others claim their government isn't like others in bringing in laws based on poorly researched material, especially when you look at all the political agenda stuff, that is rife in the Euro sector these days.

    I think the yes Minister skits have a basis in truth at the political shenanigans they are renowned for.

    Regards

    Ken

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    Gerry, I think that France has more problems than just phones! In 20% of deaths no seatbelt was worn, 12% of cyclists killed were not wearing protective headgear, fixed obstacles were involved in 36% of deaths, plus the alcohol and drug statistics are similarly horrifying.
    France has similar fatality statistics to Australia, and like here their authorities appear determined to reduce fatalities to zero, even if that means removing all vehicles from the roads.
    Last edited by Kim Luck; 5th April 2015 at 11:22 PM.
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    A brace of delicious ironies here, first M. Freed will soon be on the Australian state with absolutely the most terrifying drivers, secondly a premier supplier of hands-free car phone kits is the French company Parrot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    A brace of delicious ironies here, first M. Freed will soon be on the Australian state with absolutely the most terrifying drivers, secondly a premier supplier of hands-free car phone kits is the French company Parrot!
    It's a case flogging a "dead" parrot , if you will ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    It's a case flogging a "dead" parrot , if you will ?
    Just squeezing its technicals I'd say...

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    It's not dead. It's just sleeping
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    I could imagine a hands-free phone installation being MORE dangerous than a hand held phone. With a hand held phone, all you can do with it is listen and drive one handed. With a hands-free smart phone you can watch it as well if its in a prominent position.

    We seem to have developed an inate desire to talk, constantly, about nothing, preferably to others than are not in our presence at the expense of communicating with those sitting next to us. This is so in restaurants, public transport, whilst walking and driving.

    Our smart phones seem to be eliminating dumb people who seem to be more enthralled by the sountrack than the moving picture in front of them on the otherside of the windscreen. I'm speechless.

    John
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    Follow the real discussion
    «Au volant, kit mains libres ou pas la conversation est un distracteur» | Actualité | LeFigaro.fr - Santé
    The jumping to a conclusion that this is some sort of conspiracy suggests a psychological problem.
    The decision was part of a package of changes in the driving code which were implemented by politicians but which come from recommendations by competent government departments and their advisors. Those advisors are now contributing to the public debate, which is not apparenty meeting much of a challenge on the grounds of lack of causal relationship between phone usage and driving error. It is about the more intractable issue of how much punishment is needed to change habits.
    In the same package they have lifted the nuisance parking fine to 130 euros + vehicle recovery charges - so watch that one to.
    France may now have accident stats per kilometre driven to Australia but that was not true a decade ago. France has made enormous progress in getting to European norms. Driving behaviour has changed very obviously but the skill level gives increasing cause for concern. This is the key drivers to reduce mortality by 50% by 2020 being implemented.
    Sensibiliser, prévenir, former
    Mesure
    N°1 Modernisation accrue de l’enseignement de la conduite, en lien avec les formateurs agréés. La réforme du permis de conduire ouvre la conduite accompagnée dès 15 ans avec possibilité de passer l’examen de conduite à 17 ans et demi : des jeunes conducteurs mieux formés, c’est une accidentalité réduite.
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    N°2 Généralisation d’un module de sensibilisation à la sécurité routière en classe de seconde dès la rentrée 2015, ainsi que lors des journées de défense et de citoyenneté suivies par les jeunes à partir de leur 18ème année. Alors que la formation à la sécurité routière s’interrompt aujourd’hui en classe de 3ème, il s’agira de mieux préparer les jeunes à devenir des usagers responsables jusqu’à l’âge du permis de conduire.
    Mesure
    N°3 Développement des opérations de sensibilisation aux risques liés aux pratiques addictives et à l’utilisation du téléphone portable au volant. Sensibilisation de l’opinion à la question des blessés de la route – une campagne nationale d’information sera lancée dès le mois de février.
    Mesure
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    Mesure
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    Protéger les plus vulnérables
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    N°9 Interdire le stationnement des véhicules (à l’exception des deux-roues) 5 mètres avant les passages piétons pour améliorer la visibilité entre piétons et conducteurs.
    Mesure
    N°10 Permettre aux maires d’abaisser la vitesse sur de grandes parties, voire sur la totalité de l’agglomération (et non plus uniquement dans quelques rues), pour réduire le nombre et la gravité des collisions.
    Mesure
    N°11 En lien avec la Chancellerie, renforcer les sanctions pour les conducteurs qui, stationnant sur les passages piétons, sur les trottoirs ou sur les pistes cyclables, mettent en danger les piétons en les obligeant à les contourner.
    Mesure
    N°12 Relancer le déploiement de radars feux rouges et leur associer systématiquement un module de contrôle de la vitesse, notamment en agglomération.
    Mesure
    N°13 Uniformiser la taille et le format des plaques d’immatriculation des deux-roues motorisés, afin de faciliter les contrôles.
    Mesure
    N°14 Rendre obligatoire pour les usagers de deux-roues motorisés le port du gilet de sécurité en cas d’arrêt d’urgence, comme c’est déjà le cas pour les automobilistes.
    Mesure
    N°15 Généraliser à terme l’utilisation de supports de panneaux de signalisation « fusibles », qui ne nécessitent pas de glissière de sécurité, et diminuent les risques pour les deux-roues motorisés.
    Lutter sans relâche contre les infractions graves
    Mesure
    N°16 Poursuivre la modernisation du parc des 4 200 radars afin de mieux lutter encore contre la vitesse excessive ou inadaptée sur les routes (radars chantiers pour la sécurité des personnels, radars mobile de nouvelle génération).
    Mesure N°17 Lutter contre les contournements de la loi en matière de contrôle automatisé, notamment : en déployant des radars double-face qui permettront aux enquêteurs de mieux identifier les auteurs des infractions ; en rappelant sur les avis de contraventions que les personnes morales ne peuvent se substituer aux personnes physiques pour l’acquittement des amendes qui, comme les éventuels retraits de points de permis, s’appliquent au conducteur en infraction.
    Mesure N°18 Exiger, lors de la demande de certification d’immatriculation d’un véhicule, la désignation d’une personne titulaire du permis de conduire correspondant au type de véhicule à immatriculer. Cette personne sera responsable en cas d’infraction constatée, à défaut d’identification du conducteur en infraction.
    Mesure
    N°19 Agir contre le défaut d’assurance en se donnant les moyens techniques de vérifier l’adéquation entre les véhicules assurés et les véhicules immatriculés.
    Mesure
    N°20 Observer, sur certains tronçons de route à double sens identifiés comme particulièrement accidentogènes, l’impact d’une diminution de la vitesse maximale autorisée de 90 à 80 km/h.
    Mesure
    N°21 Expérimenter dans 11 départements, en lien avec la Mildeca, la technique du double prélèvement salivaire en matière de dépistage des stupéfiants, en vue de la généraliser et d’augmenter ainsi le nombre de contrôles.
    Mesure
    N°22 Interdire de porter tout système de type écouteurs, oreillette, casque, ... susceptible de limiter tant l’attention que l’audition des conducteurs.
    Mesure
    N°23 Préciser la réglementation du surteintage des vitres à l’avant des véhicules pour garantir le bon contrôle de certains comportements dangereux (utilisation du téléphone au volant, non port de la ceinture de sécurité ...)
    Améliorer la sécurité des véhicules et des infrastructures
    Mesure
    N°24 Réduire les risques de contresens sur autoroute en alertant les conducteurs désorientés par l’installation de panneaux « sens interdit » sur fond rétro-réfléchissant sur les bretelles de sortie.
    Mesure
    N°25 Soutenir les démarches européennes sur l’installation d’enregistreurs de données de la route (EDR) dans les véhicules pour mieux connaître les mécanismes d’accident.
    Mesure
    N°26 Fournir aux collectivités locales des outils pour les soutenir dans leurs démarches d’amélioration de la sécurité routière : guides techniques pour les encourager à réaliser, comme le fait aujourd’hui l’Etat sur son réseau, des audits de sécurité ; partage de bonnes pratiques.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 6th April 2015 at 04:23 AM.
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Gerry, that list of 26 not particularly harsh measures doesn't appear special in itself, although they mostly sound like measures that should already be in place. If all those measures are implemented quickly the result should be a drop in the accident/death rate. The implementation of so many schemes at once might make it difficult to know specifically which of the 26 were in fact were responsible for cutting the road toll, but I guess if they do have an effect when combined, the authorities will be happy.

    As an interested observer, I express doubt on the reality of achieving a 50% reduction in the death toll inside 5 years. That's an awful lot of bad habits to stamp out!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    there is no magic bullet and that is the core of the government strategy. Note the EDR strategy to sharpen the data collection to underpin future decisions.
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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    there is no magic bullet and that is the core of the government strategy. Note the EDR strategy to sharpen the data collection to underpin future decisions.
    Seriously! How difficult would it be for governments to develop an app/software that disabled outgoing calls/texts/emails whilst a 'smart phone' is mobile? Pretty well all phones are fitted with gps. This could be mandated and requires no policing. Mobiles in cars are distracting even when used by passengers. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
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