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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default France gripped by fine particle pollution

    An atmospheric condition is holding the particles close to the ground and so there is a red alert for respiratory difficulties in force across most of the country. The major cities are starting alternate traffic on Monday. This is to say that only those vehicles whose first numeric sequence on their number plates is odd will be able to use the roads. The next day it will be even numbers and so on.
    Exempt are buses, taxis and electric vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    An atmospheric condition is holding the particles close to the ground and so there is a red alert for respiratory difficulties in force across most of the country. The major cities are starting alternate traffic on Monday. This is to say that only those vehicles whose first numeric sequence on their number plates is odd will be able to use the roads. The next day it will be even numbers and so on.
    Exempt are buses, taxis and electric vehicles.
    I guess the busses and taxis are mostly diesel, Trucks? or is it just motorists?, and/or industries like refining, industrial polluters and incoming from other countries that are targeted? Fits in with the Public health aim of banning new diesel motor driven vehicles, while allowing older diesels to remain in service.

    But I thought the Germans had challenged that? Years back Ozone was said to be a prime health problem, but that got put aside and you can buy machines that "enhance the air" with ozone these days - wonder if the Germans have checked air quality in the Ruhr valley lately?

    Might be time to leave France for cleaner pastures?


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    How does this problem compare with some of the Chinese large cities?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    How does this problem compare with some of the Chinese large cities?
    I think weather inversions happen everywhere, and pollution is held close to the ground, a bit like fog conditions Jobo. The crazies say it is due to the high growth of windmill power plants that are impeding winds, but I'd challenge that!!

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    Solution - 2 cars, one with an even number plate, the other with an odd.
    A crazy band aid policy that doesn't really address the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    I think weather inversions happen everywhere, and pollution is held close to the ground, a bit like fog conditions Jobo. The crazies say it is due to the high growth of windmill power plants that are impeding winds, but I'd challenge that!!
    That as well, Ken.
    My sister lived in Peking for two years. The must have had almost constant weather inversions there.
    One of our girls is from Hunan (Zuh (sp) i think). Her father sent her a picture the other day showing a blue sky - apparently a rare occurrence there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    I guess the busses and taxis are mostly diesel, Trucks? or is it just motorists?, and/or industries like refining, industrial polluters and incoming from other countries that are targeted? Fits in with the Public health aim of banning new diesel motor driven vehicles, while allowing older diesels to remain in service.

    But I thought the Germans had challenged that? Years back Ozone was said to be a prime health problem, but that got put aside and you can buy machines that "enhance the air" with ozone these days - wonder if the Germans have checked air quality in the Ruhr valley lately?

    Might be time to leave France for cleaner pastures?


    Ken
    They are not banning new diesels. They have introduced a bonus scheme to encourage owners of old diesels to trade them in for new vehicles. Europe has introduced more stringent regulations on car emissions and the car manufacturers have responded by further improving diesels but also by using new petrol engine technology. The result is that they can meet the pollution restrictions more cost effectively in the smaller engines with petrol and so the market for average family car is switching back to petrol.
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    The rise of diesel in the Australian passenger fleet has been a refection of european trends (and the wonderfully cynical marketing success in managing to brand diesel as "green"...). So much so that petrol sales have actually fallen, with a matching spike in diesel consumption.

    Given Australia adopt Euro emissions standards via ADRs, I look forward to the eventual drop off of diesel locally following Europe.

    ADRs have to date lagged a couple of years behind Euro standards to protect sluggish local V8 makes - maybe now we can harmonise the standards. Don't really want Australia continuing to be a market to offload old tech in...

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    Icon14 Good, I'd like to see us using Greenfreeze like Europe has for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    The rise of diesel in the Australian passenger fleet has been a refection of european trends (and the wonderfully cynical marketing success in managing to brand diesel as "green"...). So much so that petrol sales have actually fallen, with a matching spike in diesel consumption.

    Given Australia adopt Euro emissions standards via ADRs, I look forward to the eventual drop off of diesel locally following Europe.

    ADRs have to date lagged a couple of years behind Euro standards to protect sluggish local V8 makes - maybe now we can harmonise the standards. Don't really want Australia continuing to be a market to offload old tech in...
    Now when do we get to chuck out all those patented greenhouse enhancing refrigeration mixes and use the Australian equivalent of Greenfreeze just like refrigerators have done for years in Europe, 134A was an ecological mistake and disaster, when we should be promoting a natural hydrocarbon product - sold here as HYCHILL, a very efficient refrigeration gas, unpatentable and can be supplied cheaply if all car systems were mandated to use HR22/502 Refrigerant gas, works well in older French cars too.. much like R12 used to be in refrigeration terms before someone beat up a storm of scare mongering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Now when do we get to chuck out all those patented greenhouse enhancing refrigeration mixes and use the Australian equivalent of Greenfreeze just like refrigerators have done for years in Europe, 134A was an ecological mistake and disaster, when we should be promoting a natural hydrocarbon product - sold here as HYCHILL, a very efficient refrigeration gas, unpatentable and can be supplied cheaply if all car systems were mandated to use HR22/502 Refrigerant gas, works well in older French cars too.. much like R12 used to be in refrigeration terms before someone beat up a storm of scare mongering.

    Ken
    Hychill may be good in cars. Say .5kg max in the system.

    But consider the R22 replacement in a house or commercial system.

    I don't fancy living in house with 10 kg of hydrocarbon refrigerant circulating through a aircon coil in ceiling. Imagine the potential for an explosion caused by a slow leak and accumulation of hydrocarbon gas.

    I fancy even less going into a commercial premises with 100 kg or more in the chillers in the basement.

    Let's stick to R410A for those situations. It's very much horses for courses and one solution doesn't fit all situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Hychill may be good in cars. Say .5kg max in the system.

    But consider the R22 replacement in a house or commercial system.

    I don't fancy living in house with 10 kg of hydrocarbon refrigerant circulating through a aircon coil in ceiling. Imagine the potential for an explosion caused by a slow leak and accumulation of hydrocarbon gas.

    I fancy even less going into a commercial premises with 100 kg or more in the chillers in the basement.

    Let's stick to R410A for those situations. It's very much horses for courses and one solution doesn't fit all situations.
    Most plumbers would probably be quite happy to drive a vehicle running on LPG to the site where they might have to repair a Hychill installation. 10 kg of Hychill gas is about 51 litres. How many litres of explosive hydrocarbon gas is in the vehicle's LPG tank? How many hydrocarbons are in the LPG tank at your local servo? Do you immediately race off the highway and hide when you see an LPG tanker?
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    The weather changed, the rain took away a lot of the particles. The government only imposed the alternate day for today, Monday and tomorrow traffic will be back to normal. Today all public transport was free in Paris and the surrounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Now when do we get to chuck out all those patented greenhouse enhancing refrigeration mixes
    Ken
    for the record, refrigerants were a problem for the ozone layer, not a GG issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    for the record, refrigerants were a problem for the ozone layer, not a GG issue.
    HFCs are a GHG problem, replacing CFCs which were an ozone problem. Putting aside the corporate proprietary issues, the next round will attempt to be neither.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    HFCs are a GHG problem, .
    if you call 2% of GHG emissions "a problem", which i, personally, would not.

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    I wonder how cars with modern LPG conversions compare when it comes to emissions .LPG is widely used in The Netherlands and Italy ,but not much in other countries .

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    For several years diesels have been fitted with Particle Filters that burn the soot.
    If you look at late model diesels you don't see soot coming from exhaust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Most plumbers would probably be quite happy to drive a vehicle running on LPG to the site where they might have to repair a Hychill installation. 10 kg of Hychill gas is about 51 litres. How many litres of explosive hydrocarbon gas is in the vehicle's LPG tank? How many hydrocarbons are in the LPG tank at your local servo? Do you immediately race off the highway and hide when you see an LPG tanker?
    Yikes .... LPG tanks in cars are a very strong metal tank, with several cut off solenoids upto a converter. The likelyhood of any gas leak is extremely remote.

    Now a huge A/C system, with rubber pipes, Orings, coils, evaporators, electric compressors .... with bang gas .... Gee's mate... I wont' nothing to do with it
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    So what you are saying, Shane, is that whilst automotive gas fitters get everything right, the standard currently shown by refrigerant "plumbers" is less than satisfactory?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    no what he is saying is that all this stuff: Now a huge A/C system, with rubber pipes, Orings, coils, evaporators, electric compressors, there is alot of opportunity for leaks that dont exist in a single tank with 2 cutoff solenoids. you can add 'enclosed spaces' to that list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leroybrown View Post
    For several years diesels have been fitted with Particle Filters that burn the soot.
    If you look at late model diesels you don't see soot coming from exhaust.
    The European standards have move on at least two iterations since the days when you could see the soot. We are dealing with fine particles now that you can't see with the naked eye but the naked lung does not approve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    So what you are saying, Shane, is that whilst automotive gas fitters get everything right, the standard currently shown by refrigerant "plumbers" is less than satisfactory?
    LPG gas tanks have special low-rate-of-flow valving in them. Even if the fuel line is ruptured the rate of flow is minimal and stench unbelievable. If free flow, broken line is detected the flow is entirely stopped. All th eLPG gas plumbing is outside the vehicle or in an enclosure which is vented to the atmosphere. An electric gas solenoid valve is fitted at the tank outlet and are fail safe. A gas tank is around 10mm thick and able to retain the gas even if placed in a fire.

    Aircon systems with a retrofit propane based refrigerants have none of these safeguards. They were originally designed to be used with non/mildly flammable refrigerants.

    Aircon systems run high pressures and have large copper pipes ,12mm /30 mm is typical on an 18 kw system compared to the 3/8 gas line on a vehicle

    It's not a case of installation skills nor practices : air con systems are not designed for flammable hydrocarbon refrigerants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julian b View Post
    I wonder how cars with modern LPG conversions compare when it comes to emissions .LPG is widely used in The Netherlands and Italy ,but not much in other countries .
    LPG has a higher energy content and all things being equal will result in lower CO2 emissions. But - the aftermarket conversion systems have poor efficiency and the increased fuel consumption overwhelms any benefits.

    Its the opposite of diesel - which has a lower energy content and all things being equal will have a higher CO2 footprint than petrol. But better fuel consumption has traditionally offset that to result in a net improvement (direct injection petrols have largely closed the gap on this though).

    A proper liquid injection system (like the Orbital system on the FG Ford Falcon) will realise the improvement though.

    But its all incremental at best. They're all carbon fuels being combusted and they all share the same problems of loading your lungs with poisonous crap and contributing the unbalancing of the atmosphere's delicately balanced heat trapping effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    LPG gas tanks have special low-rate-of-flow valving in them. Even if the fuel line is ruptured the rate of flow is minimal and stench unbelievable. If free flow, broken line is detected the flow is entirely stopped. All th eLPG gas plumbing is outside the vehicle or in an enclosure which is vented to the atmosphere. An electric gas solenoid valve is fitted at the tank outlet and are fail safe. A gas tank is around 10mm thick and able to retain the gas even if placed in a fire.

    Aircon systems with a retrofit propane based refrigerants have none of these safeguards. They were originally designed to be used with non/mildly flammable refrigerants.

    Aircon systems run high pressures and have large copper pipes ,12mm /30 mm is typical on an 18 kw system compared to the 3/8 gas line on a vehicle

    It's not a case of installation skills nor practices : air con systems are not designed for flammable hydrocarbon refrigerants.
    Absolute rubbish, read the Hychill literature, there is more likelihood of a plumbers gas canister leaking, and causing an explosion or improperly secured lines in an LPG gas fitted vehicle working loose, than in a properly maintained refrigeration system fitted to a motor car that are designed and well capable of handling the minute quantity of LPG in a sealed system. AFAIK the only problems with any LPG (GreenFreeze ) refrigeration systems have been in the handling of bulk gases and improper use in recharging systems, and that is common to larger refrigeration systems where most "accidents" that cause injury are caused by improper handling outside the manufacturers safety specifications. If bulk supply systems are allowed to leak LPG will accumulate as a heavy gas in drains and sumps and can be ignited by coming into contact with gas pilot lights, electrical spark generating equipment.

    Most scary talk is generated by competing refrigeration gas manufacturers who want to gain some advantage for their more expensive but less efficient patented gas mixes, and some of those are just as explosive if improperly handled, or corrosive/injurious to humans if improperly handled.

    The furphy over CFC's causing damage to the ozone hole is still being debated in scientific circles, as the ozone hole seems to be naturally waxing and waining of it's own accord (sometimes larger, sometimes smaller) while correlation is suspected and extreme measures were bought in to ban CFC's there is no really clear evidence one way or the other.

    There is and has been a huge change in delivery of medication that was formerly handled by CFC propellants, but not by other replacement products, hence the development of alternative dry powder medication systems that are less efficient and in some cases can cause other problems if the medication misdirected accumulates in throats and the airways of lungs - patients need to flush this away, least they become like particulate pollution, deleterious to the human body. Not and issue with the CFC method of medication delivery.

    All those links to medical reports were publish on A/F years back..

    Regards

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Absolute rubbish, read the Hychill literature, there is more likelihood of a plumbers gas canister leaking, and causing an explosion or improperly secured lines in an LPG gas fitted vehicle working loose, than in a properly maintained refrigeration system fitted to a motor car that are designed and well capable of handling the minute quantity of LPG in a sealed system. AFAIK the only problems with any LPG (GreenFreeze ) refrigeration systems have been in the handling of bulk gases and improper use in recharging systems, and that is common to larger refrigeration systems where most "accidents" that cause injury are caused by improper handling outside the manufacturers safety specifications. If bulk supply systems are allowed to leak LPG will accumulate as a heavy gas in drains and sumps and can be ignited by coming into contact with gas pilot lights, electrical spark generating equipment.

    Most scary talk is generated by competing refrigeration gas manufacturers who want to gain some advantage for their more expensive but less efficient patented gas mixes, and some of those are just as explosive if improperly handled, or corrosive/injurious to humans if improperly handled.

    The furphy over CFC's causing damage to the ozone hole is still being debated in scientific circles, as the ozone hole seems to be naturally waxing and waining of it's own accord (sometimes larger, sometimes smaller) while correlation is suspected and extreme measures were bought in to ban CFC's there is no really clear evidence one way or the other.

    There is and has been a huge change in delivery of medication that was formerly handled by CFC propellants, but not by other replacement products, hence the development of alternative dry powder medication systems that are less efficient and in some cases can cause other problems if the medication misdirected accumulates in throats and the airways of lungs - patients need to flush this away, least they become like particulate pollution, deleterious to the human body. Not and issue with the CFC method of medication delivery.

    All those links to medical reports were publish on A/F years back..

    Regards

    Ken
    I think you are misreading my post. LPG cars are safe.

    LPG refrigerants in car is acceptably safe.


    What is not safe in my opinion is the use of flammable refrigerants in systems that :

    (a) Hold several hundred kilo of refrigerants and were never designed to be charged with flammable refrigerants.

    (b)Domestic systems that hold upwards of a 10 kg of refrigerant and are in the category.

    Air conditioning systems don't have a tank to contain the refrigerant. The majority of the charge is retained in the condenser and evaporator when system is not running. As you would know they are easy to perforate.

    You also have take Hychill's data with a grain of salt. The "good guy's" put a spin on their product too.

    Interesting watching on youtube the show is hosted by Dr Ian Maclaine Cross, it happened at UNSW in front of his students. Mke sure you watch it right through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4

    Don't forget Dr Cross is Hychill's resident expert and conducted their "safety" research.


    The CFC and Ozone hole debate is totally irrelevant to the safety of drop in propane/ butane replacement refrigerants. As the replacement of CFC propellants.

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