Diesels and the French Government
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Thread: Diesels and the French Government

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default Diesels and the French Government

    The government has backed down on its efforts to ban diesels and has come up with a compromise scheme. It has various incentives to force diesels made before 2005 without particulate filters to leave the roads. To encourage the general shift from diesels it will give a 500 euros bonus to a buyer of a petrol powered vehicle if a diesel is traded in. If they buy a petrol/electric hybrid they will get 6,500 euros and if they buy an all electric they will get a 10,000 euros bonus bringing, for example, a ZoŽ down to 10,000 euros + 80 euros/month battery rental.

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    A vehicle emissions attititude only considerable in a country largely independent of coal fired electricity emissions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    A vehicle emissions attititude only considerable in a country largely independent of coal fired electricity emissions.
    They dun got that there noocleehar lectric.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    and hydroelectric and a tiny bit of solar and wind, experimental tidal also.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The removal of the price advantage of diesel fuel is already having its effect on motor preferences for French buyers. Last December diesel accounted for only 59% of cars sold, the lowest in over a decade. The distribution is very skewed, 95% of citadine, that is small urban cars, are sold with petrol engines and the diesels only dominate in the middle size segments. It is further affected by the trend to smaller cars. Diesel is not considered dead, but is likely to settle for half the car and small commercial market over the next few years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    A vehicle emissions attititude only considerable in a country largely independent of coal fired electricity emissions.
    that is true only if you consider the quantity of emissions, not how many people are breathing them in.
    our coal fired power stations are not in the middle of capital cities!
    i say that without personally being concerned about diesel emissions.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    On the right hand end of the bridge in this image and within 1km is Melbourne CBD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Diesels and the French Government-newport-power-station.jpg  
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    so... Newport power station. no coal fired units there since the 80s, and now one gas fired peak load unit.
    as the comment was about coal, this photo is not on point. further, the fact that an isolated example can be found does not detract from the general truth of the argument; power stations are not in cities, but most vehicles are.
    Last edited by alexander; 17th February 2015 at 11:44 PM.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    It's a large chimney attached to the coal fired Newport power station located almost in the geographical centre of Metropolitan Melbourne.

    Remember this?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    that is true only if you consider the quantity of emissions, not how many people are breathing them in.
    our coal fired power stations are not in the middle of capital cities!
    i say that without personally being concerned about diesel emissions.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    It's a large chimney attached to the coal fired Newport power station located almost in the geographical centre of Metropolitan Melbourne.

    Remember this?
    Kim, you photo is of pretty good quality and I would suggest it was taken since the 1980's.

    The Newport power station is a gas - only owner station for peak power demands. It did replace a coal fired unit built for electric rail around the 1920's. The gas fired unit was installed by the SEC (before the country was privatised) in 1981.

    The height of the tower was (I think) suggested by the EPA to protect the city from smog.
    I seem to recall old, unused coal-fired power stations in the Flinders St, Spencer St area well into the '90s. So you are right that we did have (30 years or more ago) coal-fired generation in the CBD of Melbourne.

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    hopefully the salient point will sink in eventually.

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    If I may return to the topic of this thread.

    Personally, I think that it's a shame that diesel is now on the outer.
    I have only recently come to it, because I can't afford to purchase new cars.
    I find my 2007 c5 a bit of a revelation. Compared with my French car experiences of more than 40 years, the Citroen is a powerhouse on the road in traffic and an economical tourer.

    But,
    I accept that if the science is in, then you have to play by the rules.
    On the other hand I plan to spend some of retirement fixing old Renaults.
    A bit like Gerry who is doing the same with an even more collectible Panhard.

    I feel like Jethro Tull - Living in the Past
    But with a weather eye to the future

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Kim, you photo is of pretty good quality and I would suggest it was taken since the 1980's.

    The Newport power station is a gas - only owner station for peak power demands. It did replace a coal fired unit built for electric rail around the 1920's. The gas fired unit was installed by the SEC (before the country was privatised) in 1981.

    The height of the tower was (I think) suggested by the EPA to protect the city from smog.
    I seem to recall old, unused coal-fired power stations in the Flinders St, Spencer St area well into the '90s. So you are right that we did have (30 years or more ago) coal-fired generation in the CBD of Melbourne.
    Yes of course, gas. I've been living in Melbourne for a long time, obviously, and hadn't noticed the change over . There are still a good few miles of railway sidings at Newport for the coal trains that will come in handy when the gas runs out. Back to the topic after this message......
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Diesels and the French Government-newport-sidings.jpg  
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If I may return to the topic of this thread.

    Personally, I think that it's a shame that diesel is now on the outer.
    I have only recently come to it, because I can't afford to purchase new cars.
    I find my 2007 c5 a bit of a revelation. Compared with my French car experiences of more than 40 years, the Citroen is a powerhouse on the road in traffic and an economical tourer.

    But,
    I accept that if the science is in, then you have to play by the rules.
    On the other hand I plan to spend some of retirement fixing old Renaults.
    A bit like Gerry who is doing the same with an even more collectible Panhard.

    I feel like Jethro Tull - Living in the Past
    But with a weather eye to the future
    The key point has got lost in all this. The larger cars like the C5 are well suited to diesel because they are expensive enough to justify the costs of the anti-pollution technology.The diesel will be popular for a few years yet. However, the manufacturers are find it more cost effective in smaller cars to use a high efficiency 3 cylinder petrol mill.
    France has changed even if the technology hasn't. There is a strong swing away from cars like the C5 towards small city cars, largely because of the economic downturn but also because of urban congestion.
    Paris has a strong political bias towards the ecologists.
    There is also a political swing away from diesel subsidies because the refinery capacity in France no longer produces enough diesel and there are enough problems with importing Russian energy as is.
    Enjoy your C5, it is far from the issues of France.
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    Icon12 Agree but everything has consequences if you look into the spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    The key point has got lost in all this. The larger cars like the C5 are well suited to diesel because they are expensive enough to justify the costs of the anti-pollution technology.The diesel will be popular for a few years yet. However, the manufacturers are find it more cost effective in smaller cars to use a high efficiency 3 cylinder petrol mill.
    France has changed even if the technology hasn't. There is a strong swing away from cars like the C5 towards small city cars, largely because of the economic downturn but also because of urban congestion.
    Paris has a strong political bias towards the ecologists.
    There is also a political swing away from diesel subsidies because the refinery capacity in France no longer produces enough diesel and there are enough problems with importing Russian energy as is.
    Enjoy your C5, it is far from the issues of France.
    That last bit says it all, and the sooner we get away from the political tinkering, the better. Though of course the majority of money that is splashed about these days is taken from mushroomed taxpayers. Expect anything (including unfounded spin) from the mushroom fertiliser spreaders, in the lead up to Paris this year.

    It is unfortunate that some of the most looney stuff will be well financed and designed to take even more money out of taxpayers pockets and transfer it to the financiers and industrialists when the spin will tell you it is for saving the world, benefitting the poor, the health, it does pay to look beyond the spin for the real agenda and follow the money trail.

    I am quite happy to see the abandonment of the wholesale mandated move away from diesel using the meme of the worst transport trucks spewing particulate to torpedo the newer technology diesel development. Better to deal with the problem segment, though it would have boosted some economies by meaning a whole new line of petrol hybrid cars had to be built and sold. But extremely wasteful on resources and the environment, not to mention money directly from voters pockets and many dubious unintended consequences from such schemes, but then again, Russia and its containment to the detriment of its economy might have been thought worthwhile.

    I think the practical side of the German manufacturers might have had some play in the decision also as they tend to have the marketing muscle to benefit from their own long term strategy, even if they seem to have made a misstep in their current energy policies and needing to revert to coal fired power in the short term rather than Nuclear Energy.

    Britain of course is half way between everything, building high cost nuclear electricity plants and trying to secure "clean" gas by fracking, but said to be frustrated by a Russian financed effort to scuttle any US style large scale gas developments, fortunately for all there does not appear to be the same winter conditions in Northern Europe that has beset much of the United States at present, really cars and fuel are bit players at the moment mere cards in the deck of some ones poker game of profit making.

    Our series of mild summers has been a bit inconvenient too, and I hope that your winter conditions do become warmer as the whole energy "market" has become a hotbed of propaganda, some well meaning, some quite atrocious in its political meanderings.

    I hope they get it sorted out soon as I think Europe is in a very precarious position, and motorists don't really figure at all in the bigger picture of those with an agenda.

    Thanks for updating us on the automobile nuances Gerry

    Ken

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    Diesel vehicles can now be banned from German cities after court ruling - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    It appears the French aren't the only country considering removing diesel vehicles from the roads.

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    German cities can now ban the most heavily polluting diesel cars from their streets, a move that could accelerate a shift away from the combustion engine and force manufacturers to pay to improve exhaust systems.

    Surely the ABC means 'compression' rather than 'combustion'.

    The latter would cause rather a void, with even our steam driven friends getting the chop.

    But the ABC would quite like that methinks...

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    Oh dear, Volkswagen can't be happy.
    After VAG's attempt to gas people and Deiselgate, they went through all that expense and drama and then the engines get banned anyway. Unless they can bribe, sorry, lobby enough politicians not to ban diesels.
    Presumably the bans will not apply to heavy vehicles just to light vehicles where alternatives exist, i.e. petrol engines.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Oh dear, Volkswagen can't be happy.
    After VAG's attempt to gas people and Deiselgate, they went through all that expense and drama and then the engines get banned anyway. Unless they can bribe, sorry, lobby enough politicians not to ban diesels.
    Presumably the bans will not apply to heavy vehicles just to light vehicles where alternatives exist, i.e. petrol engines.
    VW have their international markets. So in view of their large Sales volume, it may not make the difference you believe/ would like to think. For the record VW sales increased in 2017

    The impact could be felt more by PSA, who largely concentrate on offering diesel vehicles to the market.

    Time will reveal all.

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