404 upgrade
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 26
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: 404 upgrade

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    canberra city australia
    Posts
    394

    Default 404 upgrade

    hi I saved a 404 from crasher ,the body is not to bad after living for more than 15 years on the farm, after just got read of the tenants {creepy crawlies ,must 8 legged ones !} I clean the engine bay new oil ,filters cleaned battery in, ignition on crank it 3 times and what !!!! she started let a run for 5 minutes ,a bit rough, stop it, check the levels every things ok, restart first go, adjust the idle ,may be need adjust the valves got a little clickety up there also noise came from the clutch wen the pedal is not applied ! now my questions are at the battle of waterloo I me t a gentleman with a blue 404 wagon he upgraded the front hand and rear axle to 505 one .I just bought a 505 sti wagon to do the same what do I need to take ? in advance thanks.

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,055

    Default

    Is your 404 a wagon or sedan? What Year?

    If it's sedan then the 505 STI may end up being of limited use. Even if it's a wagon I'm suspect there will be interchangeability issues. There are two series of 404 wagons, early with C3 Gearbox and late with BA7 gearbox. Diffs are different.

    Early 505s (sedans and wagons) has the XN engine (push rod) which will fit any 404 1969 or later.

    Late 505s STI and GTI had OHC engines which are not a direct swap.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    canberra city australia
    Posts
    394

    Default

    the 404 is a 1967 sedan the 505 is a 1991 wagon.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by le frogg 205 View Post
    the 404 is a 1967 sedan the 505 is a 1991 wagon.
    You have an "early" 404, with the c3 gearbox. Absolutely nothing wrong with the early 404.

    I have my doubts that many parts form the 505 wagon will be usable on 404 without a massive amount of labor.

    For the 1969 on 404 sedans the preferred donor was 505 GR/SR for the engine and gearbox. The gearbox upgrade needed some trans tunnel mods plus a 504 wagon rear mount and modification of the gear change.

    The 505 STI has an entirely different engine and drive train to the any of the 404s.

  5. #5
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    The '67 was the best 404; why change it? If you want a bit more performance; change the carby or drop in a 504 1800cc, or 2000 from a TI. My father had a '67 sedan and later I had a '70 sedan. Apart from front discs on my '70 model, everything else about the '67 was better, in my opinion. Better seats, better looking interior, better bumper bars (they were cheapened on the later models), and better gear-shift pattern.

    The disc brakes are not as big an improvement as they may sound. The drum-braked 404 had very big drums and was certainly not under-braked. They didn't suffer from fade easily. In fact I remember Wheels doing a road test on the 404 in the same issue in which they tested the disc-braked Valiant Charger. Very interesting comparing the 2 brake-fade graphs. The 404 was miles ahead.

    The '70 model had a more conventional shift pattern but the odd pattern of the '67 (and earlier) was much faster and logical once you realized why it was designed that way. On the downside, they needed to be adjusted properly. In fact the only column-shift cars that I've driven with changes as good as a floor-shift, are the 403, 404 and the FJ Holden. They are better than many floor-shifts.

  6. #6
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,185

    Default

    Yes, the FJ had a far better shift than the FE and later cars, somehow they built friction into the later ones.
    Don't forget the Renault 16 shift and my Mazda 1500 was pretty good.


    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    The '67 was the best 404; why change it? If you want a bit more performance; change the carby or drop in a 504 1800cc, or 2000 from a TI. My father had a '67 sedan and later I had a '70 sedan. Apart from front discs on my '70 model, everything else about the '67 was better, in my opinion. Better seats, better looking interior, better bumper bars (they were cheapened on the later models), and better gear-shift pattern.

    The disc brakes are not as big an improvement as they may sound. The drum-braked 404 had very big drums and was certainly not under-braked. They didn't suffer from fade easily. In fact I remember Wheels doing a road test on the 404 in the same issue in which they tested the disc-braked Valiant Charger. Very interesting comparing the 2 brake-fade graphs. The 404 was miles ahead.

    The '70 model had a more conventional shift pattern but the odd pattern of the '67 (and earlier) was much faster and logical once you realized why it was designed that way. On the downside, they needed to be adjusted properly. In fact the only column-shift cars that I've driven with changes as good as a floor-shift, are the 403, 404 and the FJ Holden. They are better than many floor-shifts.

  7. #7
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    The FJ, unlike all subsequent Holden column-shifts, was short-throw and precise. Never drove an R16 unfortunately, although I had a couple of friends who had one. A Mazda 1500 cleaned up the side of my FJ after turning right across in front of me one night. That's the closest I got to one of them. (If I'd been driving the 404 I could have just swerved behind him, instead of ploughing straight on)

    Go on Graham, talk him out of modifying the 404! I wish I still had mine; or better still, Dad's - AND the FJ.

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,185

    Default

    Yes, don't touch it, the 404 engine was more responsive that the 504 1.8 and 2 litre, when set up correctly the mid range performance was amazing. Bit like the 403s though, not many are set up right.
    I remember driving a brand new 1973 404 in Noumea with the low compression engine and it flew, same goes for the car that Brian Amey borrowed from me for the 2006 Ampol Rerun, Brian did some further carby tuning and the result was that nobody including Brian could believe it was a 1600.
    I built a similar 1.8 for another car and it never went as well, I think the induction system is tuned for the 1600 capacity.
    The Solex PBIC carbies are great for torque.
    The FJ was a great car until you came to a corner or had to stop. The Geoghagen brothers stopped rallying them in order to stay alive.

  9. #9
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Yes, don't touch it, the 404 engine was more responsive that the 504 1.8 and 2 litre, when set up correctly the mid range performance was amazing.
    Just thought I should emphasise that.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    The FJ was a great car until you came to a corner or had to stop. The Geoghagen brothers stopped rallying them in order to stay alive.
    I think I was a better driver as a result of learning to drive in the FJ and having it as my first car, rather than the 404. In fact I'd go so far as to say that everyone should learn to drive in a car with marginal handling abilities. They make you appreciate how tenuous the attachment between you and the road can be at times and you learn to read the road and drive accordingly. Too many new drivers today learn in an automatic with power steering, ABS, traction control, and sometimes stability control. They come away believing they are great drivers whereas all they've really done is learn the road rules and how to steer. They race around thinking what experts they are when all the work is really being done by Robert Bosch.

    404 upgrade-fj.jpg

    Just remembered a trip up to Mt Baw Baw late one Friday night in the early '70s in the FJ, with a group of friends; some in with me and others following in an HQ and an R10. We all knew the road very well. I was in front. Lots of corrugated, loose dirt corners. When we got to the village I was complimented on how well the FJ handled the corners, as I had taken them all without braking. I was a bit puzzled until I opened the boot and found that the wire had shaken off the brake-light.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    canberra city australia
    Posts
    394

    Default

    ok this was a completely waist of money then ! since the gear box is stuffed on the 505 I may transplant a v8 and keep it as a burnout car. and keep the cost on the 404 making it as a French rat rod .

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,055

    Default

    No Peugeot is a waste of money.

    Drive the 505 STI as a daily.

    Restore the 404 to a standard car and amaze yourself and most others how well they go, ride, stop and handle dirt roads for a car that is around 48 years old.

  12. #12
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,185

    Default

    I remember a very rapid trip back down that hill in a standard 403.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    Just thought I should emphasise that.


    I think I was a better driver as a result of learning to drive in the FJ and having it as my first car, rather than the 404. In fact I'd go so far as to say that everyone should learn to drive in a car with marginal handling abilities. They make you appreciate how tenuous the attachment between you and the road can be at times and you learn to read the road and drive accordingly. Too many new drivers today learn in an automatic with power steering, ABS, traction control, and sometimes stability control. They come away believing they are great drivers whereas all they've really done is learn the road rules and how to steer. They race around thinking what experts they are when all the work is really being done by Robert Bosch.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FJ.jpg 
Views:	140 
Size:	66.9 KB 
ID:	65453

    Just remembered a trip up to Mt Baw Baw late one Friday night in the early '70s in the FJ, with a group of friends; some in with me and others following in an HQ and an R10. We all knew the road very well. I was in front. Lots of corrugated, loose dirt corners. When we got to the village I was complimented on how well the FJ handled the corners, as I had taken them all without braking. I was a bit puzzled until I opened the boot and found that the wire had shaken off the brake-light.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    canberra city australia
    Posts
    394

    Default

    404 upgrade-20150126_134629.jpg

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Far North Queensland
    Posts
    1,494

    Default

    [QUOTE=GRAHAM WALLIS;1321531]Yes, don't touch it, the 404 engine was more responsive that the 504 1.8 and 2 litre, when set up correctly the mid range performance was amazing. QUOTE]

    Heading down the Hume on night in the drum braked 404 I tucked in behind a HQ ute.
    The pace picked up a bit once he realized I was no threat.
    Up hills he would get away from me but down the others side I would catch and overtake him.
    A few corners would see a sizeable gap between us until the next hill.
    Passing and repassing went on for miles.
    Eventually I needed fuel. The HQ pulled in behind me.
    The driver would not believe there were only 1600cc under the bonnet.
    The HQ with v8 was set up for towing so its top speed was down but it ate up the hills.
    The 404 was definitely a car to be remembered.
    Paul.

  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,185

    Default

    Looks great, picture of the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by le frogg 205 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20150126_134629.jpg 
Views:	147 
Size:	97.5 KB 
ID:	65463

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    canberra city australia
    Posts
    394

    Default

    ok there it is


    404 upgrade-20150126_134704.jpg 404 upgrade-20150126_134652.jpg 404 upgrade-20150126_134609.jpg 404 upgrade-20150126_134725.jpg

    the generator burn down I decide to swap to alternator impressive change beater ignition and brighter lights just have to find watt tyres fit those wheels
    FIVEDOOR likes this.

  17. #17
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Couldn't find the photos of mine. Must be still in a box of slides.

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by le frogg 205 View Post
    ok there it is


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20150126_134704.jpg 
Views:	162 
Size:	90.1 KB 
ID:	65489 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20150126_134652.jpg 
Views:	166 
Size:	93.7 KB 
ID:	65491 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20150126_134609.jpg 
Views:	159 
Size:	98.8 KB 
ID:	65492 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20150126_134725.jpg 
Views:	151 
Size:	97.7 KB 
ID:	65493

    the generator burn down I decide to swap to alternator impressive change beater ignition and brighter lights just have to find watt tyres fit those wheels
    Gee's you can't butcher that thing..... check it for rust and tidy it up and drive. Look at the interior I'd kill to find a DS with an original interior like that.

    Don't knock column changes ... there great if done right by the manufacturer. Ever driven a DS or Renault 16

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  19. #19
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Somewhere I have an old American car magazine from 1968. It was either Road & Track, or Car & Driver. I can't remember which. It contained an article on the 10 best cars ever produced, regardless of price. (As of 1968 of course). They included the 404. Now that's saying something for an American magazine in the '60s.

    Before you do anything, find a local fellow Frogger who has a good 404 and beg for a ride, and if he's willing, a drive. You'll be convinced. They are a strange vehicle. To the average person, they look like the old BMC finned 'Farinas, although the Pug version of the Pininfarina design has aged better than the BMC versions.

    On paper they are nothing special. 1600cc 4-cylinder, drum brakes (on most), 4-speed column-shift, live rear axle, etc. But the way it all goes together and works is a classic case of the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    bundaberg
    Posts
    340

    Default

    An even better idea is to take a 404 on a rough dirt road............you will be amazed.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Dijon16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    367

    Default

    I thought that the round instrument cluster did not come in until 1968, that the 1967 still had the strip speedo? Shows how much I know.

    "Too many new drivers today learn in an automatic with power steering, ABS, traction control, and sometimes stability control. They come away believing they are great drivers whereas all they've really done is learn the road rules and how to steer. They race around thinking what experts they are when all the work is really being done by Robert Bosch."

    Sad but true. In fact to take it one step further, all they know how to do is speed in a straight line. There is not a car on the market whose abilities don't exceed that of the learner driver, yet all that drivers "learn" to do is steer it, and slow down for corners, because they have been taught by someone who themselves learned in the equivalent of a Trabbi or Fiat 500.

    I have yet to see a P-plater who isn't up my tail in the straight, and many many car-lengths behind after the first bend, corner, curve, or even roundabout. My first car was a 1968 404.

    Sorry to have digresses a little.

  22. #22
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,185

    Default

    Shows how rare the 1967 model is too.
    A mate and I won the 1974 Victorian Clubman Rally series in one.
    It had a stock engine albeit with Pierre Ferry Weber DCD conversion, drum brakes with sintered metal linings and always had Michelin X M and S tyres (165 by15) in good condition. Suspension was stock and old.
    We were always thinking how great it would be to have a 2 litre engine but when we did achieve that the following year it didn't live up to expectations, the magic was lost and we never went so well after that.
    We tried to recover the magic but Michelin had replaced their tyres with the M and S 88 pattern, not as good although may have given a quieter ride or some such thing. Also the sintered metal linings had been reformulated to make them work when cold, making them totally useless for anything, shudder, grabbing etc.
    Ron Fraser won the NSW Clubman series the same year in another 404.

    [QUOTE=Dijon16;1322160]I thought that the round instrument cluster did not come in until 1968, that the 1967 still had the strip speedo? Shows how much I know.

  23. #23
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    At the risk of wandering further off-topic, and further away from Le Frogg 205's original question ...

    Graham, how would you compare the 404 and 504? I've owned both and love them both. In fact we now have my late father's '74 TI (which you kindly serviced for him) in the shed. He left it to my son.

    Despite the 504's undoubted capabilities, I don't think that it out-performs the 404 by as much in many areas as its extra mechanical complexity would suggest it should.

    Warwick

  24. #24
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,185

    Default

    Yes, compared to the 404 sloppy handling and noisy ride. These problems were fixed in the 505 GTi but that didn't have the torque of the 504 Ti.


    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    At the risk of wandering further off-topic, and further away from Le Frogg 205's original question ...

    Graham, how would you compare the 404 and 504? I've owned both and love them both. In fact we now have my late father's '74 TI (which you kindly serviced for him) in the shed. He left it to my son.

    Despite the 504's undoubted capabilities, I don't think that it out-performs the 404 by as much in many areas as its extra mechanical complexity would suggest it should.

    Warwick

  25. #25
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Yes, compared to the 404 sloppy handling and noisy ride. These problems were fixed in the 505 GTi but that didn't have the torque of the 504 Ti.
    Interesting. It's all so long ago that I thought I might have been imagining it.
    My 504 was a 1970 1800. I had a 505 GTI more recently; until about 6 or so years ago - but it was an automatic unfortunately, so it was hard to judge. Whereas my 505 manuals were SRD Turbos.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •