Interesting fuel times (well in Melbourne)
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 19 1234511 ... Last
Results 1 to 25 of 475
Like Tree90Likes

Thread: Interesting fuel times (well in Melbourne)

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    11,779

    Icon14 Interesting fuel times (well in Melbourne)

    Been observing fuel price in Melbourne lately, but with a slightly difference perspective with the event of using a fuel I haven't tried before, Diesel. I have had a rather disinterested past observation that diesel has been rather over priced and out of ratio with petrol prices. I remember when diesel was always cheaper than standard petrol fuel, but by some mysterious process, as diesel became more popular for domestic transport it had shot up to be almost universally dearer that petrol.

    lately of course I have been purchasing diesel and as a fuel it is much more economical, especially when I used to purchase premium fuel for the Laguna. and after observing the price for a few months now, diesel seems much more stable in price, though I do read of complaints by some owners that they don't get the so called deep discounts.

    Anyway over the last few weeks I have noticed there even seems to be an element of competitive pricing developing in the retailing of diesel, when two of the majors put up diesel last week BP took the opportunity and dropped their price 4 to 6 cents a litre UNDER the others, now that is really something, maybe it is only a Melbourne thing but this morning I purchased a fill of diesel at a local BP outlet for $142.9 a litre, yes still expensive by some measures but better than the $148.8 posted price of Shell Diesel just up the road with the ULP price at 151.9 a litre, so from that petrol prices are still dear also, but I didn't bother to check the premium prices.

    By afternoon my wife reported that quite a number of Shell outlets had dropped their Diesel price to $144.9 apparently to near match the BP price - quite frankly this is the first time for years that I have seen much in the way of competitive pricing - previously I had observed that the Safeway Caltex outlets often held off raising their basic prices even though other outlets in unison had jumped their price by 10 to 15 cents.

    Now this is just a casual observation by a member of the buying public - it may be completely different in your neck of the woods and for Tasmanians they monotonously pay much higher fuel prices than the mainland (as my daughter constantly points out to me!!) and we witness a couple of times a year when we visit.

    So it is pleasing to report a little bit of price competition, has anyone noticed better fuel pricing especially for Diesel pricing - or do you have a favourite brand of diesel selling less than the BP $142.9 lately.

    I know that US retail fuel prices are moving downwards in some states and the crude oil refinery price has dropped, but we are still bedevilled with the benchmark of parity pricing and a lower dollar against the greenback. Locally with the suggested move in gas pricing to a similar benchmarked parity price, the domestic cooking gas price is said to be set for a huge rise even though on the US market a glut in availability of domestic gas is forcing prices down.

    Advertisement


    Interesting times.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Been observing fuel price in Melbourne lately, but with a slightly difference perspective with the event of using a fuel I haven't tried before, Diesel. I have had a rather disinterested past observation that diesel has been rather over priced and out of ratio with petrol prices. I remember when diesel was always cheaper than standard petrol fuel, but by some mysterious process, as diesel became more popular for domestic transport it had shot up to be almost universally dearer that petrol..
    "disinterested" means 'unbiased'. i think you mean 'uninterested'.

    i cannot for the life of me imagine why you find the above "process" a "mystery", given that the answer has been painstakingly fed to you on a spoon repeatedly for the last decade.

    diesel is, like unleaded, priced on its wholesale price in Singapore, plus a notional/actual shipping cost, plus the retail margin.
    the reason diesel became more expensive is mainly because of the massive increase in demand from econmic expansion in some mysterious and far-off, but quite large, country well to the north of australia. it should also be of no surprise then that in view of the significant slowdown in the economy of that country, and the world generally, that the price of this primairly industrial fuel is falling relative to unleaded.

    besides which, there is no legal or moral obligation on retailers to sell anything at a price which bears any relationship to production cost, other products or logic. that is why Uncle Toby's are quite entitled to rip you off blind by charging 3 times the price of home brand for rolled oats. for example.

    other mysteries which can be solved for you:
    there is NO relationship between the price of gas in the USA, and elsewhere because a/ gas is not as easily transported as crude and b/ there is an almost complete lack of import/export infrastructure for doing so in the USA (but not for long). that is why the price of gas in the USA is about $4.80 per mmbtu, but in europe it is about $9.80. as recently as 2 years ago, the european price was almost 4 times that in the USA.

    if natural gas prices in australia were benchmarked, it would be to a market relevant to us from a trade point of view, as that is the entire basis of benchmarking to singapore for refined fuels.

    gosh! the things you can learn reading AF! assuming learning things is your objective.

    PS. you could of course save yourself (and your wife) the trouble of driving around all day with your leftover police notebook, scribbling down petrol prices, and just get a Motormouth login. they are free and have all the information there for you already.
    Last edited by alexander; 25th October 2014 at 06:52 AM.
    2353 likes this.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,958

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    diesel is, like unleaded, priced on its wholesale price in Singapore, plus a notional/actual shipping cost, plus the retail margin.
    Stop right there young fella!

    As Australia can produce supplies of oil sufficient for our petrol and diesel needs and we have (Just) a couple of refineries left over from when we controlled our own destiny one would ask the question, why the f**k does our fuel pricing have anything to do with Singapore in any shape or form? We do not need five and a half pages of your waffle to explain it, Alexander, it cannot logically be explained.
    Kenfuego likes this.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    11,779

    Icon11 I trust real life personal observations by motorists, not industry spin.

    Kim we just have to put up with the propaganda frontspiece, it can't help itself these days -

    Still interested to hear if others have found lower prices for Diesel than the $132.9 - B.P. Melbourne price or are other states dearer?

    Love to actually confirm there is some real competition emerging Australia wide. Will it last? Only if motorists take note and act I guess.

    Ken

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Philadelphia P.A. USA
    Posts
    4,251

    Icon12

    Up here in Pennsylvania,we're paying $3.00 for a Gallon right now. Across the River in New-Jersey,I've seen it even lower:-$2.97 per Gallon. This is nice(fantastic,actually..),but I get nearly all my Gas for free. When your Landlord owns dozens of Auto & Industrial Scrap Metal Yards,you get Gas for free. I even have Three 55-Gallon Drums of spare Gas sitting here,just in case of a Zombie Outbrake...
    Kenfuego likes this.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Stop right there young fella!

    As Australia can produce supplies of oil sufficient for our petrol and diesel needs and we have (Just) a couple of refineries left over from when we controlled our own destiny one would ask the question, why the f**k does our fuel pricing have anything to do with Singapore in any shape or form? We do not need five and a half pages of your waffle to explain it, Alexander, it cannot logically be explained.
    I think i can help you there Profit! Gauging rights!
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
    Stephen Hawking

  7. #7
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Icon12

    I'm trying to work out the relationship between zombies and fuel. Do they pay high prices without questioning?
    27of85 likes this.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,958

    Default

    I think they just drive into servos en-masse and take it. They never pay.......
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Stop right there young fella!

    As Australia can produce supplies of oil sufficient for our petrol and diesel needs and we have (Just) a couple of refineries left over from when we controlled our own destiny one would ask the question, why the f**k does our fuel pricing have anything to do with Singapore in any shape or form? We do not need five and a half pages of your waffle to explain it, Alexander, it cannot logically be explained.
    ok so you dont understand it, but you also dont need anyone to explain it to you either?
    interesting approach to understanding.

    that aside, i merely explained the way things are (yet again), as ken, after all these years, doesnt understand how it works. i didnt even attempt to justify it, though that has also been spoon fed a number of times in the past as well, and is eminently logical.
    Last edited by alexander; 28th October 2014 at 03:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,256

    Default

    to understand diesel pricing compared to petrol and the old super fuel go back and study what Mr keating did
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,958

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    ok so you dont understand it, but you also dont need anyone to explain it to you either?interesting approach to understanding.that aside, i merely explained the way things are (yet again), as ken, after all these years, doesnt understand how it works. i didnt even attempt to justify it, though that has also been spoon fed a number of times in the past as well, and is eminently logical.
    There is nothing logical about an arbitrarily drawn region that puts Hobart further away from Singapore than Baghdad is. Australia is an oil producing continent separated by thousands of kilometers from all it's neighbours and deserves to be an area of it's own. When the oil runs out here, we can pay world prices. Not before. Except that doesn't suit the oil industry robber barons or their supporters.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  12. #12
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,181

    Default

    Fuel pricing is not rocket science. Try this test for yourselves, regardless whether you use diesel or petrol.


    1. Leave engine switchedd OFF
    2. Gearbox in NEUTRAL
    3. Push vehicle until you are too tired to push. Measure distance travelled.


    That is the effect of zero fuel costs, mainly due to zero fuel usage.

    If you are lazy, if you want to travel longer distances, if you want to travel faster than walking pace, fill the vehicle's tank with fuel.

    If you want to remain free, pay for the fuel. The price you pay is the price the seller demands.

    Negotiating with a pistol may result in good discounts.

    When you rule the world, YOU can set the price of fuel.

    John

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,958

    Default

    You are simply confirming what we already know JBN. Big Business rules the world,.......................
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    11,779

    Icon10 Rubbish and hand waving alex, hopefully the ACCC can break cartel behaviour!!

    For all his industry generated propaganda and blustering alexander has never been able to satisfactorily explain the mysterious ways of the so called discount fuel cycle except to trot out the mythical industry claim that some how motorist consumers cause or influence it by competition.

    As I have observed and written about many times, this an artificial price manipulation by the controllers of the industry who set the step by step added on costs to imported fuel. This fuel is sourced from an artificial major petroleum controlled marketing environment, that works against over supply caused by revenue hungry nations being willing to undercut "the market" - the excess is bought up stored in and on tankers. This cartel price maintenance practice is given fancy names like arbitrage and is and has been declared illegal interference with a free competitive market where consumer countries have governments that can resist the multi national oil marketing industry, even then if you follow the history, other tricks are tried all designed to maintain optimum prices in the world marketing place.

    So before it gets to Australia, if competition can be stifled the product can be handled by sub companies who all add their percentage, but overall it is the same controlling companies that have the big say in what will be charged, added on to ensure profit for the company.

    At the retail end control of on shore storage facilities is important to locking out any foolhardy competitors who just might get their hands on cheaper product to undercut the majors, but can't sell it from the tanker and they are at the mercy of the major associated market controllers, having to pay high storage facility fees as they don't have the power to break into the controlled market, except on the terms of the majors, theis pressure is the reason that you do not see the so called independent retailers breaking the so called discount cycle, they have to follow it. I proved that point years back in recording prices at the height of the cycle and of course the ACCC is also aware that competition could occur, except there are other than market forces at work.

    As I have explained many times computer price monitoring enables companies to set a profit enhanced level, the price will dip slightly below that price level in one area, but that is matched by a higher price in another so it only has the appearance of a "competitive market" and in some cases by speeding up the price rise and slowing down the fall of prices in the artificially controlled market, it can actually enhance the overall profit level but is a non-competitive market.

    This is what the ACCC are examining along with other issues. Meanwhile key people are primed to condition the motorist to higher prices and also promote the myth of the discount cycle in the hope that some will buy the belief in the propaganda, mostly relying on those that think they are buying cheap fuel by always waiting for the bottom of the price cycle which in a manipulated process can be a few cents over the price that oil companies could sell and still make a profit. They control the gate pricing in the so called wholesale pricing and no one but the oil industry knows the actual cost since we lost the likes of C.O.R Commonwealth Oil Refineries to determine base costs and reasonable profit levels.

    alexander tries to dismiss this with lots of handwaving, insults, snide remarks, industry graphs that tell the story the industry wants to sell, artificial facts or just plain industry propaganda and just do the maths on the millions of litres sold and half a cent added here and there creams off substantial profits. All hail the computers in the world of skimming, tax reporting, profit reporting.

    There is something to be said for the old Prices justification Tribunal where such important sectors of the over cost base market were carefully monitored and profit gouging practices held in check, thus keeping passed on costs in transport and other dependent industries and the public from suffering the adverse results.

    So handwave all you want alexander, you know it is not a competitive market, it only appears to be one IF the industry propaganda/claims can be believed, motorists as a group of consumers deserve better and that is why when I see a spark of some real competition miniscule as it may be I applaud it.

    When I see independents keep their day to day prices through a multiple series of so called discount cycles we the consumers will be seeing full scale market competition and can take advantage as we wish if we don't believe the one is better than the other claims that will be rushed out as a marketing strategy..

    Ken
    Kim Luck likes this.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    monbulk
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Now there's another input into the price of fuel. The excise duty has been raised by 40 cents a tank. The government will get $4.5 billion each year. It will give half of that to miners and farmers. If the Senate doesn't legislate to approve this increase by May next year, the government share will be given back to the oil companies.

    Can't argue with that logic.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Denmark, Western Aust.
    Posts
    749

    Default

    I firmly believe that the multinationals (fuel and grocery) manipulate the markets to their advantage. In WA I'm sure the major companies with contracts to purchase fuel don't pay anything like the bowser price. The poor oil companies make less profit per litre. That's where we come in! The average price of diesel per litre is anything up to 15cpl dearer than petrol. Gotta get the average return on diesel up somehow!

    Have noticed that diesel and petrol prices here in the West have moved so that the margin is much narrower in the past week or so!
    Current Cars
    Australia's 2016 C5 2.0HDi Last
    2011 C5 2.0HDi Comfort
    1973 Citroen D Super 5,
    1981 Citroen CX 2400 Pallas C-matic,
    1981 Citroen CX 2400ie Super Familiale C-matic - Raid Arctique 2014
    1991 Mazda E2200
    1924 Citroen 'la petit citron'

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    11,779

    Icon5 What will happen, who knows but there will be some fallout!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Now there's another input into the price of fuel. The excise duty has been raised by 40 cents a tank. The government will get $4.5 billion each year. It will give half of that to miners and farmers. If the Senate doesn't legislate to approve this increase by May next year, the government share will be given back to the oil companies.

    Can't argue with that logic.
    While that will receive a partisan political response. I was happy to contribute on several levels If the end result was to pay downthe previous governments debt much like Victorian ratepayers were asked to contribute to pay down the Cain/Kirner debt in the Jeff Kennett years.

    And of course, this was exactly the means (use of existing regulations) that the greens would impose on fuel to fund the bottom line of their budgetary policy, if they ever actually got into power in their own right, to them fuel is that evil thing, we all use a bit like coal based electricity

    The past budget blowers of course will not want to confirm the tariff increase in 12 months, and try and force a need to return the monies to consumers, but it doesn't work like that, it goes back to those that paid the tariff - the err , are on the consumer nose oil companies .if that past government continues to block in the Senate. Will consumers be able to blame them or the government who were elected. Who knows!!

    Now consumers have pocket price point and with a 40 cent increase per week in estimated cost to consumers, that will finally make them more conscious and sensitive to leaping price rises. When the Howard Government stopped indexing fuel tariff and excise the oil companies quickly absorbed that cut, by raising prices .

    Today most of Melbourne is in the low portion of the so called discount cycle, so it will be interesting to see what or if fuel stations will immediately jack up the price of fuel across the board and then add the 40 cents in the mix - that might be just too much for the motorist to cop, even those that have comfortable free fuel deals in their employment mix and of course state governments that will be paying more for fuel that their employees use after hours. But then those state governments will have to wait for distribution of GST to claw some back.

    We noticed for instance that in some areas of Melbourne Safeway had Diesel for $143.9 and in Essendon Brunswick the Safeway stations there had Diesel at $155.9 12 cents difference PER Litre jump - what will it be when they add on the additional Tariff increase, it will be worth watching over the next few days, along with the overseas pricing and dollar exchange value. Other Majors may be similar to Safeway - we just as usual took notice of the diesel price as we often do as we drive past.

    As we were driving a petrol fuelled vehicle today we topped up with 98 PULP at Fairfield at $156.7 just after 2pm, so it will be interesting to watch prices over the next few days as the industry and the motoring public reacts to movements in fuel pricing.

    Interesting fuel times indeed

    Ken.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    And of course, this was exactly the means (use of existing regulations) that the greens would impose on fuel to fund the bottom line of their budgetary policy, if they ever actually got into power in their own right, to them fuel is that evil thing, we all use a bit like coal based electricity
    Ken.
    Must have misheard on the way home, thought someone was mentioning that the Greens actually oppose this re-introduction of indexing this tax
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
    Stephen Hawking

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    11,779

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Must have misheard on the way home, thought someone was mentioning that the Greens actually oppose this re-introduction of indexing this tax
    Of course they oppose, but many things do change when realities of politics and policies sink in - each will tactically manoeuvre as will the present government, and the Labor party, lot of huffing and puffing and the greens do not want to be wiped out like they were in Tasmania, so prepare for an interesting lesson in politics and of course lobbying in the background from "interested" third parties.

    I'd like to see motorists and their interests uppermost, with out the politics, but unfortunately fuel has been thrust into that glaring spotlight. hopefully we can keep politics low key without argument, best for the forum.

    I might be expecting too much or said too much already.

    Ken

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    monbulk
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    While that will receive a partisan political response. I was happy to contribute on several levels If the end result was to pay downthe previous governments debt much like Victorian ratepayers were asked to contribute to pay down the Cain/Kirner debt in the Jeff Kennett years.
    Ken.
    I'm not sure that I understand your reference to the Victorian government of 1992 to 1997. Nor do I understand how a Green's government that has not been elected is complicit in this additional fuel charge?

    The changes have been introduced in the present tense.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,958

    Default

    With the situation providing a win-win situation again for the oil companies. If the parliament does not approve the "change by stealth" excise change within 12 months, the money is refunded to? Guess who? Not the people that paid the excise, but the oil companies.....
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    11,779

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I'm not sure that I understand your reference to the Victorian government of 1992 to 1997. Nor do I understand how a Green's government that has not been elected is complicit in this additional fuel charge?

    The changes have been introduced in the present tense.
    Similar debt reduction basis - and yes absolutely I agree it is the response of the present elected government with legislation blocked in the senate, all part of the intriguing mix, that will sort out...or not!!

    No argument from me on that!!

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    monbulk
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Que?

    How is debt reduction managed by raising an income (fuel excise) then guaranteeing half goes back to miners and farmers?
    Then the other half goes back to the oil industry? ( potentially, I understand )

    Someone here is missing the point.

    Is it me again?

  24. #24
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,181

    Default

    If we had honest politicians AND the government really wanted to put pressure on other parties to approve the excise hike, then this is what people of principle would do:

    If the excise increase is not passed within one year, the equivalent amount of excise raised will be removed from the politicians superannuation fund and that amount plus the excise raised will go into general revenue.

    This way, the politicians of all parties (hereinafter referred to as "the guilty bastards") will get some REAL into their politik. The motorist have already been creamed and the oil companies won't get anymore manna from heaven.

    This may result in all those slow, dickhead drivers that use the roadways as a parking lot during peak hour, wasting petrol idling and getting nowhere to plant the foot and turn peak hour into the furious 5 minutes of the homeward journey from work that it should be.

    John

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,958

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Que?

    How is debt reduction managed by raising an income (fuel excise) then guaranteeing half goes back to miners and farmers?
    Then the other half goes back to the oil industry? ( potentially, I understand )

    Someone here is missing the point.

    Is it me again?
    You possibly are missing the point. When a government wishes to hand out financial benefits to it's major financial supporters those benefits have to be paid for, thus they get the public to foot the bill through an increase in fuel excise. The second part of the equation (the possible failure of their excise increase regulation to be ratified by parliament) appears to be a coldly calculated decision to make doubly sure their benefactors don't lose out if the current operators of government do.
    Kenfuego likes this.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

Page 1 of 19 1234511 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •