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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default electric cars - no driving licence needed

    As I have written about before, France has a classification of vehicle "sans permis" which allow use by unlicenced drivers. They are registered under a quadricycle class which limits the speed, weight and power. Most of them are powered by a one or two cylinder diesel of up to 440cc.
    Now Aixam, one of the better known makes, has come out with an electric car, the e-City and the Chinese are importing the Noun into France. Both are a Mini sized fully featured car complying with the Quadricycle regulations and offering a range of around 60-70kms. Like their diesel equivalents they are relatively expensive (around 15,000 euros) as they are made in modest quantities and the market pays a premium to have transport.
    Typically there are four types of drivers. The disabled, who take advantage of the simplified controls and who are no problem in the traffic. Then there are the young with indulgent parents and they are to be avoided as they try rally manoeuvres at 45kmh.
    Third there are the elderly who are also to be avoided as their reflexes may be measured in minutes and lastly the drunks who have lost their licence. They have to be given the widest berth as their habits may not have changed.
    Now we have an added dimension. One could dive for cover when one heard the angry buzz of these little diesels but now the beasties will be silent.
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    Aixam e-City et Noun Electric : sans permis, sans bruit, sans vibration - Automobile - Challenges

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    Last edited by gerry freed; 12th October 2014 at 09:33 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    The whole concept of "Sans Permis" appears just as smart as Australian States allowing people to ride bicycles in heavy peak hour traffic (or for that matter any other time) without having any proven knowledge of the rules of the road.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Typically there are four types of drivers. The disabled, who take advantage of the simplified controls and who are no problem in the traffic. Then there are the young with indulgent parents and they are to be avoided as they try rally manoeuvres at 45kmh.
    Third there are the elderly who are also to be avoided as their reflexes may be measured in minutes and lastly the drunks who have lost their licence.
    I expect over time, the four distinct driver types will all merge into the disabled class. Sadly, some able bodied non-drivers may also join them.

    John

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    I joke as usual, but this legislation is working very well. It provides mobility for a lot of disadvantaged and helps to limit the ambitions of some unlicneced drivers. They can be a frustration as they are governed down to 45kmh but they are rarely, if ever, seen outside urban conurbations or rural villages.
    If Australian states can't accommodate cyclists in safety in the rush hour, then they have faailed in their duty of care by not providing adequate infrastructure. Europe has long been familiar with city traffic dominated by two wheelers as in Holland and now Paris and the major French cities. There the governments encourage bike hire schemes. There is no economic or enviromental logic in individuals hogging road space and enrgy resources in a large hunk of metal, when they could be travelling with little more additional load than the few kgms of a modern bike - pedalled or electric. Europe is re-inventing personal transportation, while Australia is stuck with the mentality of the US mid-west.
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    That may be true, Gerry, but I for one at my age am not pushing a treadly 13km to the CBD and back or for 40-50km to the Airport. Neither am I cycling 40km to visit friends over the other side of town. People in Europe (and Tasmania) still struggle with the scale of Australia and Urban Sprawls like Melbourne and its' 9990.5 square km Vs Paris at 105.4 square km.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    I think realistically, a 200km range is the minimum for a daily driver conventional EV in mainland Australia. It would allow you to get from one side of Melb (or Sydney) to the other and back without range anxiety. Australians don't consider 150-200km a 'trip'. I think the Tesla might be successful, as it has the range and power to convert owners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    People in Europe (and Tasmania) still struggle with the scale of Australia and Urban Sprawls like Melbourne and its' 9990.5 square km Vs Paris at 105.4 square km.
    You need to be a bit careful about asking Google how big Melbourne or Paris is.
    I think including Warburton within the area of 'Melbourne' is a little cheeky.
    Do something similar for Paris and I think the area might increase quite a bit


    Given the skill levels of a lot of drivers in Australia I don't know why we bother with licensing anyway.
    But I like the idea of opening up transport for lightweight and low powered vehicles.
    I'm all for some extra options and solutions that make more room for me to drive on my road
    Last edited by StephenH; 11th October 2014 at 10:50 PM.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Here is the map and if you regularly travel from North to South, East to West or in any direction often you will have to agree, it's big:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails electric cars - no driving licence needed-greater-melbourne-map.png  
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    That may be true, Gerry, but I for one at my age am not pushing a treadly 13km to the CBD and back or for 40-50km to the Airport. Neither am I cycling 40km to visit friends over the other side of town. People in Europe (and Tasmania) still struggle with the scale of Australia and Urban Sprawls like Melbourne and its' 9990.5 square km Vs Paris at 105.4 square km.
    Not all of us struggle with how big the north island is.

    I have been stuck in Melbourne and Sydney traffic and a bicycle would be a lot faster sometimes.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    A bicycle is only faster if you totally ignore the road rules, like all bicycle and motorcycle riders do and instead of stopping behind stationary traffic filter your way to the front of the queue. Illegally.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    A bicycle is only faster if you totally ignore the road rules, like all bicycle and motorcycle riders do and instead of stopping behind stationary traffic filter your way to the front of the queue. Illegally.
    Not here. With the dedicated cycle lanes and the restricted routes for cars through the cities, they stay in slow crawls while the bikes roll on. That is what proper infrastructure commitment and an integrated strategy is all about.

    If you are going to map Melbourne and its suburbs, then you have to compare with the Ile de France. It has a deep network of a combination of public transport, RER, Metro, Buses, Trams ++ so there is not the same need to use a private car to go to work, for example.
    Parisiens get to the airport on the RER or Metro far more easily than by car.
    When I was in Sydney recently and walked around my old haunts around my office on Circular Quay, I realised that I could never commute from Wollongong today by car in a reasonable time. The congestion starts at Sutherland! You can see the social effects as so many more people are living close to the CBD in apartments. If I was doing that I would want to bike to the office, or being lazy ride a VeloSolex in a safe dedicated traffic lane.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 12th October 2014 at 01:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    A bicycle is only faster if you totally ignore the road rules, like all bicycle and motorcycle riders do and instead of stopping behind stationary traffic filter your way to the front of the queue. Illegally.
    That might be the case in Melbourne but we have bikeways and one runs conveniently beside the motorway5 into the City from the southside so no need to break any rules as you pass the stationary traffic.


    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Not here. With the dedicated cycle lanes and the restricted routes for cars through the cities, they stay in slow crawls while the bikes roll on. That is what proper infrastructure commitment and an integrated strategy is all about.


    I cant agree more. We have some excellent dedicated bikeways, but some areas are too tight and congested to enter the combat safely on a bike.

    I commuted to work on a bike almost every day for 15 years, the last few years the commute was 15km each way, which I could do in a tad over 30 minutes and on a bad traffic day, do it quicker than a car.

    My father commuted similar distance to his work until re retired at 65 years of age.
    Last edited by FIVEDOOR; 12th October 2014 at 01:38 AM.
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    A bicycle is only faster if you totally ignore the road rules, like all bicycle and motorcycle riders do and instead of stopping behind stationary traffic filter your way to the front of the queue. Illegally.
    You need to read the road rules Kim

    http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/LTObjSt7.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/63BBBC7301711070CA257A7D001C4941/$FILE/09-94sra008%20authorised.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    I think realistically, a 200km range is the minimum for a daily driver conventional EV in mainland Australia. It would allow you to get from one side of Melb (or Sydney) to the other and back without range anxiety. Australians don't consider 150-200km a 'trip'. I think the Tesla might be successful, as it has the range and power to convert owners.
    Or this could be a goer as well?
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    Lane filtering is not illegal in NSW. (recent rule change)

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    You need to read the road rules Kim

    http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/LTObjSt7.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/63BBBC7301711070CA257A7D001C4941/$FILE/09-94sra008%20authorised.pdf

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    Yes, Col, I do!

    I'm much more familiar with the old Motor Traffic Act which preceded the current legislative piece of wankmanship.
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Yes, Col, I do!

    I'm much more familiar with the old Motor Traffic Act which preceded the current legislative piece of wankmanship.
    Thats the problem with lots of car drivers they do not keep up with the rule changes.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Thats the problem with lots of car drivers they do not keep up with the rule changes.
    As far as I am aware it is still illegal to deliberately knock a cyclist or motorcyclist off their bikes......
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Now you tell us !!! Honestly Kim, you are such a spoil sport.

    What about pedestrians with white canes, & LOLs in wheelchairs ?

    Richard

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    I just said it was illegal. I'm not sure if it's still illegal if no-one's watching?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    I think realistically, a 200km range is the minimum for a daily driver conventional EV in mainland Australia. It would allow you to get from one side of Melb (or Sydney) to the other and back without range anxiety. Australians don't consider 150-200km a 'trip'. I think the Tesla might be successful, as it has the range and power to convert owners.
    I think that you will find that the statistics from surveys will show a similar pattern to that found in Europe and the US. That is a large proportion of vehicles in urban conurbations travel less that 65 kms each day. It is that market which the electric vehicle makers are targetting. Tesla are doing somthing else and are tackling the early mover consumers, who have other criteria for the purchase of innovation.
    The vehicles that I described at the top of this thread are aimed at another market again. These owners need mobility on a very local basis- within the home suburb to get to the shops, doctor, school etc. If they need a bit more than 65kms they can stick with their diesel powered versions but at 45kms/hour they are not going to venture much further.
    There cars are like this
    AIXAM, le leader européen des voitures sans permis
    and
    Voitures sans permis écologiques : modèle IXO, OPTIMAX et BE SUN - Automobiles ligier

    a long way from Tesla , 200 kmh over 200k.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 12th October 2014 at 08:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    I think that you will find that the statistics from surveys will show a similar pattern as is found in Europe and the US. That is a large proportion of vehicles in urban conurbations travel less that 65 kms each day. It is that market which the electric vehicle makers are targetting. Tesla are doing somthing else and are tackling the early mover consumers, who have other criteria for the purchase of innovation.
    The vehicles that I described at the top of this thread are aimed at another market again. These owners need mobility on a very local basis- within the home suburb to get to the shops, doctor, school etc. If they need a bit more than 65kms they can stick with their diesel powered versions but at 45kms/hour they are not going to venture much further.
    There cars are like this
    AIXAM, le leader européen des voitures sans permis
    and
    Voitures sans permis écologiques : modèle IXO, OPTIMAX et BE SUN - Automobiles ligier

    a long way from Tesla , 200 kmh over 200k.
    You may be right, but in a market as small as Australia, with it's spread out suburbs, the number of people who could get away with a commuter car with a range of less than 100k would be very small.

    That small number of potential owners will mean the lack of market penetration will reduce the proliferation of charging points in comparison with densely populated European cities. It becomes a bit of a viscous cycle.

    I think 150-200k would be a bit of a magic number for most living in Sydney and Melbourne. It would open up a much larger market, especially in 2 car families, where they may have a Wank Tank for the school run/trips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    You may be right, but in a market as small as Australia, with it's spread out suburbs, the number of people who could get away with a commuter car with a range of less than 100k would be very small.

    That small number of potential owners will mean the lack of market penetration will reduce the proliferation of charging points in comparison with densely populated European cities. It becomes a bit of a viscous cycle.

    I think 150-200k would be a bit of a magic number for most living in Sydney and Melbourne. It would open up a much larger market, especially in 2 car families, where they may have a Wank Tank for the school run/trips.
    Enjoyed your "viscous cycle"... Something to do with torque converters?

    I reckon 200 km range would do it well in Perth. I need 20 km per day to commute to and fro, and 200 km allows trips to the outer suburbs and back and up into the hills. If I had one, I'd rarely use any other vehicle except for longer trips (2-3 per year) and pleasure of older French devices.

    If you want to see real electric vehicle take-up, go to China. It is happening there albeit more on 2 and 3 wheels than 4, at least THIS year.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    That genuine replacement for the petrol powered personal transport as currently in use, does not exist with available cost effective technology. The present answer is to change people's transport habits and that is happening through a variety of social pressures. Sydney and Brisbane are perhaps farther ahead than Melbourne in developing residential clusters close to and indeed within the CBD. The quarter acre block is doomed, as lined up end to end the distances are too long for the next half centuries energy pricing. Sitting in front of a screen or sexting on a smartphone is displacing first car ownership in the budgets of adolescents. They will need shorter distances and more public transport alternatives. That is why a coordinated transport policy to redefine the role of the private car is the way to go.
    After a century of a love affair with the motor car, France politically has become quite autophobic and is reorganising itself to minimise their need. It is also why the once French manufacturers are concentrating on exploiting their existing technology in emerging markets that have yet to go through the cycle of having personal motorised transport before they can get rid of it.
    China is an interesting situation in that while the foreign manufacturers are shifting important volumes there to first time buyers, the Chinese are already implementing the next generation strategies predicted for the West. They have the motor and battery technologies to flood the cities with minimalist vehicles for personal transport and light goods delivery. Their recent development history has displaced slum high density housing with inner city apartment blocks, that is bypassing the phase of suburban sprawl. In that scene a car becomes a status symbol not practical transport, much as they are in Singapore.
    We will be moving very shortly now to Tasmania where our house is between the Hobart CBD and the Airport. I think Tasmania is still to be considered Australia and yet this positioning is ideally suited to an electric car of present technology with a 150 km range. A charging station at home is all that I need.
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    As it happens my daily commute is 44.9km and if I vary it generally no more than 60km.
    Much of the route is 80kph limit but rarely gets to that during commuting times.
    I could easily get by with a lightweight electric vehicle, mainly as I already have multiple vehicles and would just swap when I need to (same as I do now).
    Not the most environmental approach, but better than some options and I would go with something like a Twizzy if they were legal here.

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