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  1. #76
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    I saw a classic example of the type of car that should not be on Historic plates a couple of days ago.
    I was browsing through the magazines at the local newsagent, when i spotted a hot rod magazine
    and the picture on the cover was a FC Holden with a claimed 1/4 mile time of 10 seconds.
    On the front of said car proudly displayed in full sight was a lovely shiney red Historic plate.

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    In Qld they seem to be "garaged" in the street and kept in shopping mall and railway station carparks.
    4's 16's and Caravelle

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    Quote Originally Posted by 27of85 View Post
    I saw a classic example of the type of car that should not be on Historic plates a couple of days ago.
    I was browsing through the magazines at the local newsagent, when i spotted a hot rod magazine
    and the picture on the cover was a FC Holden with a claimed 1/4 mile time of 10 seconds.
    On the front of said car proudly displayed in full sight was a lovely shiney red Historic plate.
    All the FC's (FJ's, FE's) I ever travelled in "back in the good old days" had been modified in some form or other. Modified heads (one even had a Waggot DOHC head), triple carbs, extractors, Lukey mufflers, lowered suspensions and even radial ply tyres. I don't see your problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 27of85 View Post
    I saw a classic example of the type of car that should not be on Historic plates a couple of days ago.
    I was browsing through the magazines at the local newsagent, when i spotted a hot rod magazine
    and the picture on the cover was a FC Holden with a claimed 1/4 mile time of 10 seconds.
    On the front of said car proudly displayed in full sight was a lovely shiney red Historic plate.
    You realise the street rods were moved over too this scheme too ......


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    thought I'd add a voice.... Vic club plate scheme is fair and it's not a massive saving of money...do the figures
    my current full reg just arrived..it's $706 for 356 days or $1.93 day...for that you have unlimited use of your car..day & night..all year round and no requirement to fill in log books every time you wish to use the car..and no restriction with your use
    Now my club car is on a 45 day permit which costs $68 or $1.51 day...
    so 42 cents a day is the saving....considering the restrictions it's not overly generous
    the main benefit is you are not paying for days you don't use the car....
    I can't understand the fuss .... just get over it and put your own car on club plates!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    All the FC's (FJ's, FE's) I ever travelled in "back in the good old days" had been modified in some form or other. Modified heads (one even had a Waggot DOHC head), triple carbs, extractors, Lukey mufflers, lowered suspensions and even radial ply tyres. I don't see your problem?
    It was a reference to the fact that it was very highly modified and not within the intent of the CH permit system.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    All the FC's (FJ's, FE's) I ever travelled in "back in the good old days" had been modified in some form or other. Modified heads (one even had a Waggot DOHC head), triple carbs, extractors, Lukey mufflers, lowered suspensions and even radial ply tyres.
    Oh dear. Thanks for that comment Kim. Now I'm feeling quite old and in need of a good lie down. Most of those cars that I travelled in "back in the good old days" were bog standard. Although we did eventually have radials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    thought I'd add a voice.... Vic club plate scheme is fair and it's not a massive saving of money...do the figures
    my current full reg just arrived..it's $706 for 356 days or $1.93 day...for that you have unlimited use of your car..day & night..all year round and no requirement to fill in log books every time you wish to use the car..and no restriction with your use
    Now my club car is on a 45 day permit which costs $68 or $1.51 day...
    so 42 cents a day is the saving....considering the restrictions it's not overly generous
    the main benefit is you are not paying for days you don't use the car....
    I can't understand the fuss .... just get over it and put your own car on club plates!!
    There are other benefits like insurance is much cheaper for instance,
    my Alpine insurance cover is less than half of what it costs to insure my Clio
    The Clio is also on an extremely low mileage allowance to achieve this.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




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    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    Oh dear. Thanks for that comment Kim. Now I'm feeling quite old and in need of a good lie down. Most of those cars that I travelled in "back in the good old days" were bog standard. Although we did eventually have radials.
    Don't feel too bad! I hung around with a bunch of petrol heads even back then! I guess I just never travelled in an F series that hadn't had something done to it.....I was in the RAAF when a quick car was required to get you, your mates and all the dirty washing from Wagga back to Mum and back to Wagga again on a weekend, wherever she lived! ;-)
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    I'd feel better if I still had mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 27of85 View Post
    It was a reference to the fact that it was very highly modified and not within the intent of the CH permit system.
    The street rod plates are in with the "H" plates too.... They are supposed to be modified. I don't understand why everyone thinks THEY should be able to control everyone's use of the scheme. Don't worry about others..... That's the polices job. You may actually be looking at a legal street rod. These sorts of rumours ( cos that's all they are ) really irritate the shit out of me. If your concerned, ring the police!.... It's there job too .... You know..... Too Police things...

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    The police are too busy shooting angry teenagers atm.
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    I thought he had a banana in his possession?

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I thought he had a banana in his possession?
    Could have. He was certainly ripe for recruitment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    The police are too busy shooting angry teenagers atm.
    Conversely could I say " angry teenagers", who are "persons of interest", have been very busy stabbing two police officers.
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    OK, I dislike bureaucrats making things unwieldy for the sake of their own mindset.

    If you are part of a appropriate club, this is the part I would like the club feedback to focus on: Vicroads should help the clubs with practical and common sense changes, not enforce new requirements on everyone just to close the loopholes for those that will just find another way to circumvent them anyway.

    I am aware of a few concerns about the current scheme, mainly to do with stupidly modified vehicles being put on the road on club permits and the odd drongo that thinks it is clever to put their paddock bomb on club permits and drive around on bald tyres.

    The answer shouldn't be to make a system that mainly works into a drama to work with.

    There has been some suggestions around about changing the RWC so that it doesn't apply if you change clubs or move from full rego to the CPS, but I think that misses the point.
    The bulk of my concerns are on the bureaucratic, practical and common sense levels.

    My biggest concern.
    Interpretation of changes by clubs.
    A simple (common sense) scheme becomes a nightmare to understand and for clubs to provide advice to their members.
    Some examples.
    Clubs (and the RWC supplier) have to understand VSI 33 & VSI 8 (Modifications) as to what needs to be certified (engineering approval).
    An additional category of club permit (Modified - Certified, but not a Street Rod) and 3 different age groups (with different requirements).
    Engines can be modified, for pre-1969 vehicles this is limited to less than a 'significant power increase' (with some % increase guidelines provided) otherwise the modifications must be certified.
    What are you meant to do, find an original unmodified vehicle in good condition and dyno it for a baseline, or use the original marketing numbers which were rubbish and generally overstated (but you still need to dyno your vehicle?).

    My other practical commercial concern.
    Finding a RWC inspector that actually understands what was legal for the vehicle originally and the scheme allowances, not just looking at current standards.
    Vicroads notes this will be an issue (but doesn't seem to understand the basics of older vehicles themselves) saying 'they will work with providers of RWC to address this concern'.
    This is what they say in a recent 'Testing Times' article (circulation to the RWC suppliers).
    "Standards for older vehicles
    The standards that apply to older vehicles are those that applied when the vehicle was first built.
    For example, a 1910 model T Ford does not need front brakes, a high beam headlight or indicators to meet roadworthy standards.
    When assessing the condition of an older vehicle, you should apply your trade knowledge to make accurate decisions about the vehicle’s roadworthiness.
    If an older vehicle has substantial or significant modifications, the tester should use their best efforts to test the vehicle for compliance with any guidelines or vehicle standards information sheet applicable at the time of modification.
    If you are not sure, please call VicRoads Vehicle Fitness on (03) 9811 8380."


    How many providers will put in the effort to look into each older vehicle model and the standards of the time (including ADR application)?

    Other items.
    Brakes.
    1: Proposed changes don't allow fitting brakes from another make, which was a common period upgrade.
    2: Proposed changes do allow brake upgrade 'kits', marketed for the specific vehicle and from a commercial entity that is subject to laws governing product liability.
    Is the entity still around to face the music on product liability?
    Have you got a set of original fitting instructions to prove the kit was fitted correctly?

    Internal Rollcages must be certified to a current standard(?), not what was legal at the time.

    There are more examples (read the proposed changes yourself) and in my opinion most of the changes will punish the innocent for the sake of trying to rein in a minority of scheme abusers (like the 'Lotus 7' I saw a couple weeks ago with a 7ltr Chev V8 and bigger in every dimension than the original.

    My 2 cents

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    A running theme in this thread is the fear that Victorian inspectors will apply current standards to early cars. Are Vics that stupid, really? Is this what VFL fever does to you? I don't believe it.

    NSW has had annual roadworthies for ever and this principle has always applied. I have never had a mechanic try to enforce a new rule. If you go to an older inspector they will usually volunteer that such and such no longer complies, but it's ok on this car. Seriously, it isn't a problem. I've had cars with originally no and red blinkers, no centre brake light, odd brakes, funny pedals, lights in unapproved places (for this just look at early Landie headlights set in the middle) - no problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    A running theme in this thread is the fear that Victorian inspectors will apply current standards to early cars. Are Vics that stupid, really? Is this what VFL fever does to you? I don't believe it.

    NSW has had annual roadworthies for ever and this principle has always applied. I have never had a mechanic try to enforce a new rule. If you go to an older inspector they will usually volunteer that such and such no longer complies, but it's ok on this car. Seriously, it isn't a problem. I've had cars with originally no and red blinkers, no centre brake light, odd brakes, funny pedals, lights in unapproved places (for this just look at early Landie headlights set in the middle) - no problems.
    Victoria has not generally required RWC because the scheme as applied in NSW has not made an iota of difference to the NSW road toll. It is expressly a scheme to keep NSW motor repairers in a job and under the counter money flowing in that area similar to the revelations recently encountered in all sorts of NSW government provinces.

    In Victoria, the roadworthy certificate is a serious bit of paper after a serious test and it does not specifically take into account the age of a vehicle (as far as I am aware.) The testers are allowed some discretion regarding tests on older vehicles but that is on their own heads. Unless Victorian roadworthy law is modified from it's current standards to specifically allow acceptable minimum standards for any older vehicles on Club permits I would think that owners of older vehicles in Victoria should be very afraid.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Kim, the Victorian rules are little different from those in NSW, and the old car standards are the same.

    I agree that the road toll is little affected by rego testing, but it isn't true that NSW testing is a universal joke. Where I live you won't find anyone who doesn't do a proper inspection. The authorities do check on fails, and shop-arounds, and can follow up police defect notices, so perhaps the local mechanics have a reason to be on their toes. If they offend, they lose a lucrative business. Because inspections generate repairs they need the ticket.

    I ran old cars for a long while, and got used to them being hoisted and gone over. Because the inspections were annual, and the mileages between inspections low, there wasn't an accumulation of repairs to be suddenly presented to me. Tyres were usually the most costly item.

    I asked a country relo what his local mechanic (supposedly a lax place) did - as well as the tyres, lights, seats, pedals and other obvious stuff, the car got jacked up and suspension and leaks were checked. The car was then run, the exhaust noted and the car was driven. The brake deceleration test was done last. You wouldn't have hidden anything serious even there.

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    I think that cars that didn't originally have indicators are now required to have them fitted .The same may apply to seatbelts ,but otherwise can remain as they were when new .When I got my licence in 1966 you had to learn the hand signals because many of the older cars on the road didn't have indicators and weren't required to fit them [If I had such a car I would have fitted them rather than have to drive around with the drivers window open to give signals]. I remember seeing LHD WW2 Jeeps fitted with mechanical hands fitted on the RH side to give signals .It would have been much easier to fit indicators so I am assuming they weren't invented then .

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Kim, the Victorian rules are little different from those in NSW, and the old car standards are the same.

    I agree that the road toll is little affected by rego testing, but it isn't true that NSW testing is a universal joke. Where I live you won't find anyone who doesn't do a proper inspection. The authorities do check on fails, and shop-arounds, and can follow up police defect notices, so perhaps the local mechanics have a reason to be on their toes. If they offend, they lose a lucrative business. Because inspections generate repairs they need the ticket.

    I ran old cars for a long while, and got used to them being hoisted and gone over. Because the inspections were annual, and the mileages between inspections low, there wasn't an accumulation of repairs to be suddenly presented to me. Tyres were usually the most costly item.

    I asked a country relo what his local mechanic (supposedly a lax place) did - as well as the tyres, lights, seats, pedals and other obvious stuff, the car got jacked up and suspension and leaks were checked. The car was then run, the exhaust noted and the car was driven. The brake deceleration test was done last. You wouldn't have hidden anything serious even there.
    This is simple... Do you have a 1950 -> 1985 vehicle registered up there.... Here's a challange for you, bring your "roadworthy" vehicle across the border just after it's annual inspection and see if you have a snowmans chance in hell of getting it past a Victorian roadworthy..... You will likely fail on many, many points. They also take pictures of all the failure points just to verify there is issues. Lucky you.

    You simply don't understand the scrutinity on the testers down here, there all shit scared they'll get massive fines if they use a little common sense.

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    I have put an elderly Landrover "over the pits" as we say here, to be inspected by one of the rule-obsessed thorough-going public service pains who work in the motor registry. NOT a garage. The toughest possible inspection. Certainly equal to any in Victoria. He wouldn't let me watch - I had to stay inside the registry office. The inspector did the driving.

    It passed. It had been round the clock twice (in miles), and had no demister or heater or centre brake light or other modern requirement. The diesel white smoked when cold, as those old motors did. The speedo read in mph.

    The point I was trying to make is that it isn't remarkably onerous to keep an existing roadworthy old car in that condition. Few do large annual miles, and most actually being driven are loved. Major engine or gearbox failure is what does these in.

    In your shoes I'd be more concerned about the additional cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I have put an elderly Landrover "over the pits" as we say here, to be inspected by one of the rule-obsessed thorough-going public service pains who work in the motor registry. NOT a garage. The toughest possible inspection. Certainly equal to any in Victoria. He wouldn't let me watch - I had to stay inside the registry office. The inspector did the driving.

    It passed. It had been round the clock twice (in miles), and had no demister or heater or centre brake light or other modern requirement. The diesel white smoked when cold, as those old motors did. The speedo read in mph.

    The point I was trying to make is that it isn't remarkably onerous to keep an existing roadworthy old car in that condition. Few do large annual miles, and most actually being driven are loved. Major engine or gearbox failure is what does these in.

    In your shoes I'd be more concerned about the additional cost.
    The land rover guys down here aren't real keen. Apparently a stock standard drum brake system on a Series/Stage 1 in perfect condition struggles big time to pass the brake fade test......... Which we all know should NOT be a part of the roadworthy. Given this, why do they know it fails unless the testers are actually testing for it

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    It must be a hell of a test. Landrovers with round drums (ie occasionally visited a lathe) stop well and take a lot to fade. They are truck-like after all. Mine has come down some long fireroads and old roads (no longer accessible - too "dangerous") in the Barrington Tops area. Of course with decent shoes and round drums they satisfy the published rego standards.

    Heaven help Series MM and II Morris Minors - just one quick stop will fade them, even when new. I've had some terrifying downhill runs near the beaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    A running theme in this thread is the fear that Victorian inspectors will apply current standards to early cars. Are Vics that stupid, really? Is this what VFL fever does to you? I don't believe it.
    I have had a Vicroads licensed vehicle tester question the lack of seatbelts in a vehicle made way before they were required.
    This was a vehicle being sold on full rego.

    I have been questioned on braided brake lines on a pre-1970 vehicle, Vicroads advised the licensed vehicle testers in December 2006 that that (subject to a few conditions) this was acceptable. The RWC tester wouldn't have it, 'braided lines are not legal unless they were on the original vehicle' (which is just 1 of the 4 acceptable conditions).
    Even showing the tester the Vicroads bulletin wasn't enough, I ended up swapping back to the old rubber lines as I couldn't be bothered taking the argument further.

    Aside from being forced to find a tester that actually knows what they are doing with older vehicles (they do exist) there is still the basic problem of making something hard that should be easy.
    Example I received today from the Austin 7 club, under the proposed changes the long proven upgrade to hydraulic brakes will not be legal (as it is not a commercial kit or a complete system from another Austin model) unless each vehicle is individually certified.
    So if you want to rebuild an Austin 7 on a budget you will need to stick with the original (much inferior) cable operated brakes, rather than doing what has been pretty much standard practice for 50+ years.

    The whole point of the CPS becomes uncertain, if it becomes more complex it may as well be scrapped as a club scheme and just be a limited use registration category.
    The idea of the club permit scheme was to allow older vehicles to be used by enthusiasts without requiring full registration or specifically limited to club only events.
    The vehicle should be safe for road use, prepared and presented in a way that is consistent to period use including modifications and technologies.

    It wasn't intended to let someone build a stupid vehicle and slide it quietly onto the road under the radar.
    There has to be a set of minimum standards and I don't agree with building a modern 'recreation' and then slipping it through on the club permit scheme.
    Same goes (just an example) for dropping a big block Chev into something that came with a 1.3 4 pot with completely different drivetrain and expecting a club to take responsibility.

    Enforcement of the current scheme seems to be the problem, not the scheme design.
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