PSA to dump EGS
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    jmn
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    Default PSA to dump EGS

    According to the February edition of Wheels, PSA and other auto makers are moving to sophisticated nine and even ten-speed torque converter automatics. First fruits of this venture with Aisin (which is 30% Toyota owned) will arrive in 2014-15. PSA has apparently cancelled plans for further development of its EGS saying that they are at a deadend so far as improving operational smoothness is concerned.

    Chrysler will be first to fit its cars with nine-speed ZF autos. These chop 2 secs. of the 0-100 kph time and also meet the 2016 US CAFE fuel economy standard of 6.6 l/100 kms.

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    It is unclear what path VW will take. They have had diabolical problems in the US, having been forced by the Government to recall and fix tens of thousands of Veedubs and Audis fitted with DSG gearboxes. VW China had to extend gearbox warranty to ten years under pressure from the government. That's what called kicking the can down the road.

    Having sampled just about all the 'automated manual' atrocities, all I can say is good riddance to bad rubbish. Their total demise can't come a moment too soon!
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    We've got an 8 speed auto in our new car, and it is lovely. But I have to say, I also loved the DSG gearboxes in our last 2 Golf GTIs. There was a bit of an art to learning to 'creep' them to manouver in really tight space, but ours were always smooth enough and trouble free. I suspect there must be 'good' ones and 'bad' ones. My wife can't/won't drive a manual and, for me, a torque converter auto in a small 4 cylinder car is generally horrible to drive - especially when pressing on in cornering. A CVT is even worse. The DSG was therefore something of a marriage saving compromise. My wife could drive it, but the DSG at least allowed me, when the mood took me, to lock the car in a particular gear and enjoy a hard drive with a direct connection between engine and road that a torque converter can't do. That said, I probably wouldn't want to buy one with 150,000k on the clock....

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    Yes Rootes tried them in 1960 with the Smiths System, didn't work then either.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by jmn View Post
    According to the February edition of Wheels, PSA and other auto makers are moving to sophisticated nine and even ten-speed torque converter automatics. First fruits of this venture with Aisin (which is 30% Toyota owned) will arrive in 2014-15. PSA has apparently cancelled plans for further development of its EGS saying that they are at a deadend so far as improving operational smoothness is concerned.

    Chrysler will be first to fit its cars with nine-speed ZF autos. These chop 2 secs. of the 0-100 kph time and also meet the 2016 US CAFE fuel economy standard of 6.6 l/100 kms.

    It is unclear what path VW will take. They have had diabolical problems in the US, having been forced by the Government to recall and fix tens of thousands of Veedubs and Audis fitted with DSG gearboxes. VW China had to extend gearbox warranty to ten years under pressure from the government. That's what called kicking the can down the road.

    Having sampled just about all the 'automated manual' atrocities, all I can say is good riddance to bad rubbish. Their total demise can't come a moment too soon!

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    jmn
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    Richard W

    I agree that a well-functioning DSG drives well; probably the best of this type of gearbox. But there's the rub! All too many of them don't.*This was the story that first alerted me to the DSG problem; hope the link still works.

    http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and...118tsi_warning

    Recently drove a new Corolla with the CVT. Just why Toyota with their part ownership of Aisin would use CVT has me mystified. The car drove alright up to the point where I needed some oomph up a hill. All I got was an engine revving its head off with no change in forward impetus. Missus drove it and simply hated it. End of story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmn View Post
    Richard W

    I agree that a well-functioning DSG drives well; probably the best of this type of gearbox. But there's the rub! All too many of them don't.*This was the story that first alerted me to the DSG problem; hope the link still works.

    http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and...118tsi_warning

    Recently drove a new Corolla with the CVT. Just why Toyota with their part ownership of Aisin would use CVT has me mystified. The car drove alright up to the point where I needed some oomph up a hill. All I got was an engine revving its head off with no change in forward impetus. Missus drove it and simply hated it. End of story.
    This link has nothing about the DSG? Or, did i miss it?
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    We've got an 8 speed auto in our new car, and it is lovely. But I have to say, I also loved the DSG gearboxes in our last 2 Golf GTIs. There was a bit of an art to learning to 'creep' them to manouver in really tight space, but ours were always smooth enough and trouble free. I suspect there must be 'good' ones and 'bad' ones. My wife can't/won't drive a manual and, for me, a torque converter auto in a small 4 cylinder car is generally horrible to drive - especially when pressing on in cornering. A CVT is even worse. The DSG was therefore something of a marriage saving compromise. My wife could drive it, but the DSG at least allowed me, when the mood took me, to lock the car in a particular gear and enjoy a hard drive with a direct connection between engine and road that a torque converter can't do. That said, I probably wouldn't want to buy one with 150,000k on the clock....
    Must be different in the GTI. The TD with DSG still changes up if the revs go high. Otherwise the DSG works well once i filled the trans. oil to the right level (the factory underfilled and it flared going fast around corners)
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Must be different in the GTI.
    A little bit of Googling this afternoon suggests that most of the complaints about DSG seem to be with the dry clutch 7 speed gearboxes fitted to the smaller cars. Higher powered versions (GTI and V6s) use a wet clutch 6 speed that doesn't seem to have been as problematic. Our own experience was that it was very rare for the gearbox to get confused or make a harsh change. Left foot braking, however, will cause them to kill power completely for a second or two which caught me out a couple of times...

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    jmn
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    JoBo

    Click on the link to read all the comments. Plenty there with blown engines and gearboxes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Yes Rootes tried them in 1960 with the Smiths System, didn't work then either.
    Graham
    Do you mean Easidrive or the Manumatic clutch? Auto Union also played around with the vacuum clutch as their Saxomat and the Ponton series Benz had the Hydrak system. Probably all fine when new, but too much trouble for most now.

    Here's an interesting page on Hydrak operation: http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/...nce/hydrak.htm

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    Easidrive.
    [url]http://www.theseriesminxpages.com/the%20series%20minx%20pages_005.htm[/url
    Seems the main problem may have been the mechanical switching, later models used electronics.
    They used a magnetic clutch as did the Jaeger system for 403s, maybe this would work better than the VW clutches?
    Graham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Do you mean Easidrive or the Manumatic clutch? Auto Union also played around with the vacuum clutch as their Saxomat and the Ponton series Benz had the Hydrak system. Probably all fine when new, but too much trouble for most now.

    Here's an interesting page on Hydrak operation: http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/...nce/hydrak.htm
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 18th January 2013 at 07:50 PM.

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    Renault & I presume Peugeot used a Ferlec clutch & manual gearbox with clutching by the gear lever switch. The clutch used iron filings which were energised by the generator as revs rose to become solid. As I understand it , the gear lever switch just cut power to the clutch to allow for gear changing. I know this system was used on the Renault 750, Dauphine, & Fregate of the 50s. It was quite nice to drive in the 750s. I don't remember any Peugeot 203 0r 403s with it.

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    Your right there about the FERLEC clutch on Renault 750's and Dauphines, but I never saw any on Fregates or Peugeots. I worked on FERLEC Clutch Renaults during my apprenticeship. They were quiet good when new, but a 'pain in the ass' when they aged, this was due to various 'parasitic resistances' in various electrical contacts, due to only being powered by 6 volt system. We converted many from FERLEC automatic clutches, back to conventional clutches. Incidentally the word FERLEC was an ' acronym' for Ferodo Electromagnetic Clutch. It used a flywheel filled with iron powder that became magnetized when current was passed through it and this drew the pressure plate towards the flywheel, ' gripping' the copper faced cluth plate tightly between flywheel and pressure plate... A clever idea, thwarted by 6 volt electrics.

    CORRECTION: whoops, sorry, having a 'senior moment there'...the FERLEC did NOT use 'Iron Powder' inside the flywheel...it used a copper wire winding.
    Last edited by Rod Slater; 19th January 2013 at 10:11 AM.

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    Peugeot used the same idea, made by Jaeger.
    403s and early 404s.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Slater View Post
    Your right there about the FERLEC clutch on Renault 750's and Dauphines, but I never saw any on Fregates or Peugeots. I worked on FERLEC Clutch Renaults during my apprenticeship. They were quiet good when new, but a 'pain in the ass' when they aged, this was due to various 'parasitic resistances' in various electrical contacts, due to only being powered by 6 volt system. We converted many from FERLEC automatic clutches, back to conventional clutches. Incidentally the word FERLEC was an ' acronym' for Ferodo Electromagnetic Clutch. It used a flywheel filled with iron powder that became magnetized when current was passed through it and this drew the pressure plate towards the flywheel, ' gripping' the copper faced cluth plate tightly between flywheel and pressure plate... A clever idea, thwarted by 6 volt electrics.

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    Whoops, correction, correction, correction...thanks Graham....sorry I'm getting my 'systems' confused....the passage of 50 plus years has clouded my memory...FERLEC did NOT use 'Iron Powder' (that was in the STANDRIVE, as used by the Standard Motor Company)...which I 'think' was the Jaegar system.... The FERLEC used a winding, inside the flywheel, which caused the flywheel to become magnetised, when current flowed through the windings... i will go back and edit my previous post

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    1980's. Living in London and working at the main Volvo dealers I couldn't understand why the owners chose manual boxes over autos.
    I could only put it down to their previous experiences of English cars fitted with Smiths autos, Hillman. BMC etc.
    On the other hand the Brits still bought the DAF derived 343 Volvos with their CVT belt drive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Slater View Post
    Whoops, correction, correction, correction...thanks Graham....sorry I'm getting my 'systems' confused....the passage of 50 plus years has clouded my memory...FERLEC did NOT use 'Iron Powder' (that was in the STANDRIVE, as used by the Standard Motor Company)...which I 'think' was the Jaegar system.... The FERLEC used a winding, inside the flywheel, which caused the flywheel to become magnetised, when current flowed through the windings... i will go back and edit my previous post
    The Jaeger Coupler, as used on the 403 and 404 was licensed from Smiths Industries to Jaeger.
    I was involved , in a minor way, in the reconditioning and refitting of a Jaeger Coupler to a 403.

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    From Wikipedia:

    Leonardo da Vinci, in 1490, conceptualized a stepless continuously variable transmission.[19] Milton Reeves invented a variable speed transmission for saw milling in 1879, which he applied to his first car in 1896.[20] The first patent for a friction-based belt CVT for a car was filed in Europe[clarification needed] by Daimler and Benz in 1886, and a US Patent for a toroidal CVT was granted in 1935.[21][22]


    Worth a look, nothing new under the sun, eh?

    http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...e_transmission
    Last edited by Exfrogger; 19th January 2013 at 10:38 PM.
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    Having now "owned" three EGS equipped C4s (well OK, two were French TT leases), I think it is disappointing that the EGS is being dropped. We primarily lease the EGS box C4s as it has not been possible to lease an auto diesel on the TT scheme and Mrs UFO has a difficult time driving a manual these days due to serious back injuries in a car crash when she was 20 years old.

    Last year we bought a 2nd hand C4 HDi EGS as her car and she hoots along in it and loves it. I don't mind driving the car too.

    I know that European drivers have an aversion to automatic gearboxes, so it will be interesting to see how PSA goes with this one.
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    EGS are laid not dumped.
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    It depends on the eg and chok laying it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmn View Post
    Having sampled just about all the 'automated manual' atrocities, all I can say is good riddance to bad rubbish. Their total demise can't come a moment too soon!
    Here, Here.

    I couldn't agree more. All of them I've sampled are just plain miserable.

    We test drove a Megan Diesel with a CVT recently, all of 20 meters before i took it back because of the excessive lag on take off.

    DSG's are great on a twisty open road. Absolutely fantastic! Would be wonderful in a sports car.
    In traffic they are the most miserable and dangerous things.

    Why can't someone just make a good hydraulic auto anymore?

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    jmn
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    G'day there CC1701:

    Initially, I believed that the concept of a clutch pedalless manual would be a great one but it has failed to fulfill reliability expectations. The plain fact is that too many owners have found themselves facing real financial pain when these things fail out of warranty. Clearly, the failure rate is unacceptable as the car makers have no doubt found within the warranty period during which they are liable. They don't need this level of financial pain in these especially financially straitened times.

    The Aisin transmission used in the C5 (and many other FWD cars) has to be one of the best around. I really wonder why anyone would want a clutch pedal any more except for the very 'sporty' and off-road vehicles. There's still little things that can be done to 'tighten up' auto gearboxes but those who persist with the term 'slushbox' need to get out more.

    I'd just love for its torque rating to be improved so it could take the full power that the 3 litre diesel engine is capable of.

    http://superchipsltd.files.wordpress...-v6-s-copy.jpg

    Sheesh! Who'd need to superchip that engine?
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    I often wonder why people want an automatic at all - other than for medical/physical reasons - it's such a boring drive, but I can't say the current 6 sp EGS is bad. Sure it has its foibles but they are easily overcome.

    The only issue that annoyed me about the 2.0 HDi Grand Picasso I drove for a month was reversing up a little hill at the house we were staying in. Driving, both in the country and in traffic was fine.

    Having said that, the loaner Xantia 5 sp man I drove for a day recently is the very first car I've had for a while that I thought to myself - this could really do with an auto. It was hard work. Perhaps if I'd become more familiar with it I would have warmed to the manual a bit more but I have my doubts.
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    Default Well that's a bit sad - TDi with a Semi manual is a good combo

    Nothing at the link I can see either


    might be better to look at this one, BIG foobar


    http://www.autoevolution.com/news/vw...ina-45400.html




    500,000 cars affected. China exerted political pressure and VAG extended the Waranty period.


    Having driven the 2-tronic, S tronic, DSG, SensoDrive, MMT, PDK, Selespeed, Dualogic / Speedgear,E-Gear, and the SMG/SSG I feel the Dual clutch transmission (DCT) are better.




    It might not be the 'smoothest' but the VAG DSG is the best for my needs. It's lighter and has none of the parasitic power loss of an autobox, shifts faster(only 8 milliseconds), never misses a shift like I can sometimes do and keeps the Turbo spooled.




    There is more than one kind of VAG DSG though , DSG6 / DSG7 being two distinct product streams. The China recall has a lot to do with DSD7 boxes, the DSG6 is a wet clutchpack and the DSG7 is dryplate.


    One of the ideas behind the DSG7 was to reduce costs, weight (20Kg), improve economy, sadly not as robust as the wet clutch design you will find mated to the higher tourque engines.


    Perhaps VAG will go back to wet packs, the dry plates seem to have been problematic. I'd be intererested to see what gear oil change intervals they come out with.


    Currently on my second car with a wet clutch pack DSG6, I have read all about the fuss but have NEVER had an issue with the DSG6.


    JUST REPLACE THE OIL WHEN SPECIFIED!! As the valveing shares the oil with the friction plates it is critical.


    I had that much faith in the DSG6 I replaced my Service vehicle with a Caddy Maxi 2.0 TDi mated to the DSG6. Now just over a year old with +85k Kilometers on the odometer I still love it.


    Rock solid and luggs around a min of 400 Kg of parts all day, the Hi Ace LWB crapola auto it replaced is prehistoric in comparision.


    Fuel consumption alone is a no brainer.




    The parking issue and low speed manouvering can be overcomed with the use of the left hand (surprisingly easy).


    1. Left foot hovering above brake pedal ( but don't touch or the gearbox goes into neautral ) for JUST in case


    2. Thumb depressing the handbrake lock button lift the hand brake and apply the pressure/drag required whilst


    3. With right foot apply throttle to manouver the vehicle at low speed.


    Why is this so hard to figure out?


    Perhaps it's because I spent a lot of time in my youth going sideways on dirt that it became natural to use ALL the vehicle controls to 'drive' a vehicle.
    Every time I hear the complaint that the manual auto shift boxes are a PITA to park I ask 'why dont you use the handbrake'.


    The number of times the penny drops would keep me in bottles of single malt forever. = People comute and don't 'drive' cars, too easy to get a licence.


    The only car I have come across that has a foot park brake is the S Class Merc ( stupid design that has mostly died out as cars evolved )




    Max tougue ratings from VAG are very fuzzy regarding the DSG 6/7 it seems that they can rate nearly identical but I suspect the dry plate is more fragile.


    From what I have read it seems the 7 speed dry clutch glazes / wears out too quickly mated to the torquier motors. Be interesting to see where VAG goes with the sportier cars that have the DSG7.


    I think the DSG6 will be offered in the Hi Po versions and the DSG7 will only be offered on the 'littlies' in the future.


    As gearbox technology gets more complex the expectation of reliability goes up with it, yet the operator gets less skilled.


    I wonder how many DGS7 Polo/Golf GTi's died after being 'launched' regularly, exceed the operating temp on any dry clutch and it will fail. The TFSi engine is a problem from what I have read. But if you strap a supercharger and a Turbo charger onto a small 4 cyl consumer car you are asking for issues.


    Well known among the Vortex community - stay away.


    N.B. the lancia S4 did twincharging well - but that was a monster F1 car disguised as a rally car.

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    jmn
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    Fangbosun:

    I did mention the China aspect and also that there are over 200 comments on the Carsguide link.

    Your point re the "Twincharge" engines is well made. I don't believe that VW did all the product development that they should have. These engines show the signs of premature market release. Having said that, I would be prepared to believe that a significant number of engine failures in Australia would be a result of owners using 91 RON fuel. Some people just can't help themselves and insist on using the cheapest available fuel.

    I think it was the British automaker Herbert Morris who once stated.
    "No design is good unless it can stand a liberal dose of bad workmanship". To a certain extent, bad ownership could come in for mention as well.
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