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Thread: 1972 Citroën D Special- "Celia"

  1. #101
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    Default 1972 Citroën D Special- "Celia"

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Ahh, I thought you had removed the engine pipe already? I've not had to completely remove one myself, just get it out of the way to remove the manifolds to get to the starter and engine mount...

    So, let's see where you are at.
    Have you released the lower bracket from the gearbox and released the engine pipe from the flex that joins to the muffler?

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    Is the car raised and sitting on stands? If so are you finding there is insufficient room now below the car to drop the the engine pipe low enough to clear the underside? If so, do you have a trolley jack to get enough clearance (careful if you raise the car make sure you place some timber under the stand as you lift.

    Let us know what is causing the problem, if it's not going to come out from underneath then yes you will have to remove the manifolds and bring it out from above.

    Cheers
    Chris
    I celebrated prematurely. I have removed (well unbolted) the downpipe- I hadn't yet removed it from the car. The entire exhaust is removed and all brackets are off.

    It really doesn't look like it'll come out from underneath. I've undone the engine mount, raised the engine etc. to no avail. The car is up on stands and the downpipe doesn't hit the floor- it looks like there's not enough room between the chassis and gearbox for it to fit out the bottom.

    I've given up for the time being. What a ridiculous setup.

    I think it'll have to come out the top, which means removing the manifold... Much easier said than done, obviously the person before me had as much difficulty in finding a suitable tool and has badly damaged the manifold nuts...

    I'm seriously thinking I'll retreat and put the old one back on.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post
    I celebrated prematurely. I have removed (well unbolted) the downpipe- I hadn't yet removed it from the car. The entire exhaust is removed and all brackets are off.

    It really doesn't look like it'll come out from underneath. I've undone the engine mount, raised the engine etc. to no avail. The car is up on stands and the downpipe doesn't hit the floor- it looks like there's not enough room between the chassis and gearbox for it to fit out the bottom.

    I've given up for the time being. What a ridiculous setup.

    I think it'll have to come out the top, which means removing the manifold... Much easier said than done, obviously the person before me had as much difficulty in finding a suitable tool and has badly damaged the manifold nuts...

    I'm seriously thinking I'll retreat and put the old one back on.
    I'll have to look at mine when I get home tonight, are you sure you can't move it forward enough to clear and drop? I was going to ask why you are replacing, is the old one damaged/crushed?

    Hang in there, someone will have done this job and may be able to add more informed advice

    Cheers
    Chris
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  3. #103
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    Default 1972 Citroën D Special- "Celia"

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    I'll have to look at mine when I get home tonight, are you sure you can't move it forward enough to clear and drop? I was going to ask why you are replacing, is the old one damaged/crushed?

    Hang in there, someone will have done this job and may be able to add more informed advice

    Cheers
    Chris
    Yeah, I've been at it since 8am and have had no luck at all... Hugely frustrating.

    Nothing particularly wrong with the downpipe, it's just old and I wanted to replace everything. I'm sure there's no harm in leaving it but I'm pretty determined not to let it beat me. If I need to remove the manifold though I'm in trouble- I really can't see how that can be done without major difficulty...

    Frustrating. Hugely frustrating!!! I really want to do the engine mount & starter now too- I never, ever want to have to do this again!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post
    Yeah, I've been at it since 8am and have had no luck at all... Hugely frustrating.

    Nothing particularly wrong with the downpipe, it's just old and I wanted to replace everything. I'm sure there's no harm in leaving it but I'm pretty determined not to let it beat me. If I need to remove the manifold though I'm in trouble- I really can't see how that can be done without major difficulty...

    Frustrating. Hugely frustrating!!! I really want to do the engine mount & starter now too- I never, ever want to have to do this again!
    Toby you've done the hard yards already, honestly if the engine pipe is undamaged I see no reason to replace (sure your new one is no doubt nice and shiny but that won't last). You've jumped in at the deep end, if you read through the forum you'll recognise that 'the' worst job on a D is replace the starter and yup it does come across as a "ridiculous setup" it is of course a consequence of RHD. I know it won't make you feel any better but add an aircon-compressor into the mix and you are really in for some fun.

    The sequence on many jobs on a D is remove, remove, remove etc. until you get to the task you set out to achieve. If the manifolds are to be removed you are well into it now, I'd remove the sphere and plug the cylinder, pull the steering wheel back and give myself at least some room.

    The trick with the manifold is using thin edged sockets, plenty of lubrication over a few days (not the drinking kind) and extreme care so as not to break studs (don't break studs!!!!). Ensure you have new fixings, gaskets and maybe a few new studs on hand.

    The good news is engine mounts and starter motors really last well and if sorted now you'll not have to dive in again for many pleasurable years to come.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Righto. I've got the manifold off- what a job. I ended up cutting down a socket & that fitted well enough to get everything off. I Didn't even break any studs!

    Bad news is that I still can't get the engine pipe out- the starter motor is now in the way. I may as well keep going now and overhaul the engine mount and starter motor.. At least Chris, like you said, I won't have to do it again for many years.

    I got the top bolt out but now need to get the lower one off. Any tricks? It seems impossible...

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post
    Righto. I've got the manifold off- what a job. I ended up cutting down a socket & that fitted well enough to get everything off. I Didn't even break any studs!

    Bad news is that I still can't get the engine pipe out- the starter motor is now in the way. I may as well keep going now and overhaul the engine mount and starter motor.. At least Chris, like you said, I won't have to do it again for many years.

    I got the top bolt out but now need to get the lower one off. Any tricks? It seems impossible...
    You're going well, I don't recall having any trouble with the lower bolt on the starter. Keep at it you'll get there.

    Some decent info for you in these threads
    mnm http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...-engine-mounts
    Dave Rogers http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...aust-manifolds
    UFO's Flickr pics http://www.flickr.com/photos/craigke...7626826564973/

    Have a good read through, these should answer and raise questions for you

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    I can say that I've fitted a downpipe on a DS23 without having the engine out. I can't recall exactly, but I know the flex pipe was not connected, the manifolds were out, the starter was present, the sphere was removed, but the suspension cylinder was present, the handbrake and all other cables were present, the steering column may have been slid up out of the way (just can't recall), the clamp on the sump was removed and I think the bracket on the sump also had to be removed to get it to go in. Regardless, it wasn't a dead easy fit as I recall. Use some anti-sieze paste on the studs to make life easier next time around!

    If you change the starter to the shorter, later type you will want to make up an extra post to extend the stud for the back of the heat shield. If you decided to go that route or even just change the existing starter, then you need to know whether or not it is set up for a remote solenoid. On some starters there is a copper bridge between the starter windings and the solenid terminal. You have to cut it or add it depending on the starter and wiring setup. If someone overhauls the starter you have, you need to make sure the bridge or lack of a bridge remains as it went away. EDIT: Asbestos warning - you may find there is an asbestos sheath on the starter cable and possibly the clutch cable and even in the manifolds. It's certainly present on the extra heat shield for the EFI throttle body, assuming it hasn't broken up and fallen off decades ago.

    I'd also heard the RHD=hassles comment the other day from someone and, although I'd just assumed the statement had validity, studying the actual layout for a few moments I can't see why it's seen as such a drama. Certainly in an EFI car, you have a lot of stuff on the left anyway and having the steering column and a few cables over the other side would make it hard to get at some things over there. It's not really a large problem to release the steering column and slide it up to improve access. You'd presumably have to remove the exhaust manifold on a LHD car to get at the starter in any case, so I'm now curious as to what people seem to regard as being a particular RHD burden in working on it.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I'd also heard the RHD=hassles comment the other day from someone and, although I'd just assumed the statement had validity, studying the actual layout for a few moments I can't see why it's seen as such a drama. Certainly in an EFI car, you have a lot of stuff on the left anyway and having the steering column and a few cables over the other side would make it hard to get at some things over there. It's not really a large problem to release the steering column and slide it up to improve access. You'd presumably have to remove the exhaust manifold on a LHD car to get at the starter in any case, so I'm now curious as to what people seem to regard as being a particular RHD burden in working on it.
    I've never worked on a LHD car so it's hard to comment, I guess those that have but have never worked on RHD also can't make an informed comparison? It is certainly an often touted phrase and not restricted to Citroen. Some jobs must be a little more difficult and others may in fact be easier...

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    It's not like the SM, where it was never planned to be built in RHD form by the factory. Same with the XM LHD-only DIRAVI, which was a great shame. The DS was always intended to be built as both LHD and RHD, so it's not really a conversion issue. On some more modern models you get odd things like no proper RHD windscreen wiper layout on the original C4. Maybe, it's a line peddled by DS automotive martyrs and some mechanics wanting to ratchet up the bill? I can't see the major difficulties other than the steering column initially being in the way for a few jobs and you'd manage that easily after the first job.
    Last edited by David S; 12th December 2012 at 01:30 AM. Reason: Added 'windscreen wiper' - makes sense now!

  10. #110
    UFO
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    Having seen under the bonnet of a few LHD DSs, I can tell you I would never want to have to change the pressure regulator, accumulator sphere, bottom radiator hose and the fuel pump. What goes around...

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Having seen under the bonnet of a few LHD DSs, I can tell you I would never want to have to change the pressure regulator, accumulator sphere, bottom radiator hose and the fuel pump. What goes around...
    Yah- the pressure regulator and attendant sphere relocation we practiced here was a relatively popular modification. Worse with the fuel pump is changing out the oil pressure sensor just below the fuel pump. The lower hose is simply a pain in the tuchas, no matter how you slice it, LHD or RHD.

    Just as a quick aside to David S' point relating to the starter solenoid: for the three dial cars, the Citromatics have the battery-mount external solenoids in addition to the starter mounted ones. These are the ones that require the buss bar. The manual-shift cars have just the one, on the starter.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  12. #112
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    Removal of the engine pipe is as David S suggests.

    Remove the flex pipe, the clamp at the lower engine pipe to sump, the bracket on the sump, withdraw the steering column a small distance. The wiggle to withdraw the engine pipe UPWARDS is best accomplished with tongue held, just so.
    Starter motor is in the way, well the heat shield anyway, though I don't recall removing it.

    Both times the engine in the Safari has been removed and replaced, the engine pipe was unbolted at the exhaust manifold flange. I have changed the gaskets twice apart from those times. can be a troublesome area if it has been neglected or not removed in the past.

    Keep at it Toby.

    LHD V RHD difficulty of work debate, the same rule always applies.
    1. Remove what is obviously in the way, then look at the factory manual and remove what it suggests. Remove anything else that you feel might be in the way. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.


  13. #113
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    VICTORY!!!

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-downpipe.jpg

    Most relieved I've felt in a long time! I removed the steering column and the heat shield from the starter, jacked the engine as far as I could and with some persuasion, that was enough.

    I found out why it was so difficult to get out too! The bend is slightly more aggressive and the whole downpipe continues further down than the replacement.. the new one slid in without an issue. Poor photo but you get the idea:

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-old-v-new.jpg

    I've called oleopneumatics & ordered gaskets- I also need a new intake rubber hose so I'll have to check whether he's got them.

    Look how empty it is now! Not looking forward to putting it back together but still, the exhaust shouldnt require attention for many years now. There was one (!!!) bracket left holding the entire thing. I wondered why I couldn't find the one on the sump holding the downpipe before I realised it was missing entirely. Maybe left off because this downpipe was the wrong shape and it didnt fit..?

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-empty.jpg

    Richo- you're a legend. The fan is perfect! Like new, the blades are so much more flexible than my old one! I think I'll just pull off the thermofan, chalk it down to experience and move on.

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-fan.jpg

    WOOOO!

    I also bought an intake pipe and the rubbers to rebuild the engine mount from Roger while I was on the phone. Now I just need to work out what to do with the starter motor... I think I'd die if it stopped working within the next few years!
    Last edited by renault12; 12th December 2012 at 06:27 PM.

  14. #114
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    Hi Toby

    I recently went through a replacement of the starter motor... have a look at the link above that Chris quoted. The new Valeo is brilliant! Darrin of Citroen Classics provided a NEW starter.. not a reconditioned one... Had it here within a week via courier. It spins like a top.. faster engine starts.. just my

    Matthew

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    Matthew,

    I checked out the link above & read your starter motor replacement thread. I spoke with UFO the other day regarding the starter motor too & I think the Valeo one may be the go.

    Citroen classics sounds good- I think I'll order one of them. Probably wont be here before Christmas but that's not really a problem- Celia's going to be resting in the garage for a few more weeks at least.

    On a positive, after this, I'm certainly not afraid to tackle a sphere change- I mean, how much worse could anything be than this? I previously thought the timing belt change on my 07 RS megane was bad but that pales in comparison to this job!

    I'll redo the wiring too while I'm here. As I said, no real rush so I may as well do it properly. I printed the franzose catalogue today at work.. Wow. So many cool things. You really could spend an awful amount of money on something like this if you really wanted.

    I'm debating whether to sandblast the exhaust manifold.. Probably not much point though considering it'll look exactly the same after all of 2 weeks. How about bothering to paint the exhaust in high temp paint? Worth it?

    I haven't heard from the radiator place yet either but that really should be finished & ready to put back in once I've finished with all this. At least it'll be reasonably good even after this initial phase.

    One of the driveshaft boots is leaking too, but only from the band- I suspect whoever did it last time (boot looks new) didn't have the banding tool and used pliers instead. Never works! Once I've done that, mechanically it should be good enough to actually start using and discovering the other problems!

    I also bought engine mount rubbers from Roger so I'll rebuild that and fit it all back up while I'm here.

    Until tomorrow!

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    Making good progress Toby! Learning a lot in the process too

    If you are contemplating painting the engine pipe then many recommend a ceramic coating. "Hi Octane" in Rydalmere is reputedly good. I have not done this yet, but those who have done report a significant reduction in heat entering the cockpit. Heat is a serious problem with driving later D's in warmer weather.

    You think the Renault timing belt was a struggle? If you want to scare your self have a look at where the timing chain is on your car. To replace it one would need to remove engine and gearbox, steering, front brakes, both front guards, cooling system, exhaust, battery..... Fortunately the chain is very durable and not a common problem.
    Michael
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    I think you may find you have odd driveshafts, which may affect the rubber boots if you need to replace them. If I'm joining all the dots correctly, a worn inner joint was changed by the PO and I think probably replaced with an earlier style driveshaft. You might be able to search through the forum on posts about the car.

  18. #118
    UFO
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    There are reports of some Ds having had their timing chains replaced by imaginative people cutting a hole in the firewall from inside the cabin, then plating and riveting a patch in place.

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    Oh oh I think you've got Citroenism, tool kit for Christmas?

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    Well, I had another few hours to work on Celia this morning.

    I decided to change the accumulator sphere with my newfound DS mechanical abilities! I was amazed at how relatively simple this was.. with the exception of refitting the hydraulic lines, everything went off without a hitch. Only thing I wasn't totally happy with was the fact that I had to reuse the existing LHM seals at the pipe unions on the regulator.. I just reversed them and I hope they don't leak.

    If they do, they're not that hard to change anyway.

    So now, the two front spheres and accumulator have been changed!

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-regulator.jpg

    Just as I was leaving for work my final parcel from Citroworld arrived so that should be the remainder of the exhaust. I'll get on to that over the next few days!

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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    Oh oh I think you've got Citroenism, tool kit for Christmas?
    Haha yes- this was actually my plan!

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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post
    ... Only thing I wasn't totally happy with was the fact that I had to reuse the existing LHM seals at the pipe unions on the regulator.. I just reversed them and I hope they don't leak. ...
    You are not the first. You can usually use the pipe seal at least twice that way, but because you can't turn them inside out, that's half the use you can get from a pair of underpants!

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    You are not the first. You can usually use the pipe seal at least twice that way, but because you can't turn them inside out, that's half the use you can get from a pair of underpants!
    David,

    I figured so.. lets hope! As I said, even if they leak, they're not all that hard to change. Thanks for inspiring me to have a go at changing the spheres myself! You were right, they really weren't that difficult. I've only got the 2 rear ones to go; I'll do them when I move my jackstands to the back of the car.

    So- this morning (love 1500 starts!), I started fitting the new exhaust.

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-exhaust.jpg

    Here it is, all new and shiny! I'm pretty impressed! I bought every single mount & bracket as well, the exhaust on the car was a dodged up mixture of god-knows-what. The cetnre muffler was held on with what looked to be a coathanger!

    So I fitted the new engine pipe, the "A1 Quality" flexpipe (for anyone wondering, it's actually stainless steel; I presume thats the A1 reference), mounted the front downpipe support (obviosuly couldn't actually bolt it to the car until the manifold is refitted) and the centre muffler. Wow. Awesome. At least the exhaust wont be dragging on the road now! Only shame is that no one will know I've done any of this work once it's all back on the road!

    My old exhaust had a generic "Lukey" muffler in the centre position (which was round & so didn't fit properly) and no rear muffler, I'm looking forward to hearing her with this new original exhaust!

    Once my parcel arrives from Oleopneumatics, I can refit the manifold and front engine mount and get her back on her wheels again!

    Panelwork is progressing well. The bootlid is finished!!! I only used a tiny skim of filler in one section but otherwise it's really good.

    1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-boot1.jpg1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-boot2.jpg1972 Citroën D Special- &quot;Celia&quot;-boot3.jpg

    The door should be done by christmas, then just the 3rd nose panel & I can take the two rear guards, bootlid, rear drivers door & 3rd nose for paint. Not sure what panels I'll attack next- I think I'll just drive her for a little while!

    I called the radiator place and my radiator is ready to pick up too. No rush because I'm not refitting any of that until the exhaust/starter/engine mount debacle is finished. Anyway, I feel like I'm really slowly acheiving something.

    Question for the hydraulic experts:

    What I was planning on doing was leaving the old LHM in for a little while, doing about 500km, checking the new accumulator sphere has solved my tick time problems; checking there's no major hydraulic leaks and then flushing and changing the LHM. Sounds like a reasonable way of doing things?

    Found out I've been selected to work at the Avalon Airshow early next year too! Exciting news; I'd really like to have Celia going and drive her down- now I've got a date to aim for...!

    Until next time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I think you may find you have odd driveshafts, which may affect the rubber boots if you need to replace them. If I'm joining all the dots correctly, a worn inner joint was changed by the PO and I think probably replaced with an earlier style driveshaft. You might be able to search through the forum on posts about the car.
    David,

    I think you may be right. I got a heap of parts with the car so I'll check. I know there are 2 triaxes there so I'll check it out. All the boots are new so I'm thinking I may just buy the bands and change them, leaving the original boots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post

    So- this morning (love 1500 starts!), I started fitting the new exhaust.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here it is, all new and shiny! I'm pretty impressed! I bought every single mount & bracket as well, the exhaust on the car was a dodged up mixture of god-knows-what. The cetnre muffler was held on with what looked to be a coathanger!

    So I fitted the new engine pipe, the "A1 Quality" flexpipe (for anyone wondering, it's actually stainless steel; I presume thats the A1 reference), mounted the front downpipe support (obviosuly couldn't actually bolt it to the car until the manifold is refitted) and the centre muffler. Wow. Awesome. At least the exhaust wont be dragging on the road now! Only shame is that no one will know I've done any of this work once it's all back on the road!

    My old exhaust had a generic "Lukey" muffler in the centre position (which was round & so didn't fit properly) and no rear muffler, I'm looking forward to hearing her with this new original exhaust!

    Until next time!
    Looking good Toby,
    Smart move with the stainless woven style flex, the original wound flex were a horror story you'd be lucky to get a couple of years use from one - I've had a woven stainless on the car for around 10 years now.

    The rear muffler was not usually fitted to late Aus cars, you'll have to let us know if it does reduce noise. You'll have the rear pipes exiting at a nice jaunty angle, very swish

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    C5 HDi Rouge Lucifer



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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