C4 injector problems
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  1. #1
    TRT
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    Default C4 injector problems

    Have a problem with my C4. It's with the diesel doctor at Fyshwick who has pointed out to me that 2 of the injectors are leaking. He wants to get them out and refurbish and replace them.

    So far so good.

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    Phone call on Saturday. They are fused in to the engine. The 2 that aren't leaking are fine - he can lift them in and out without tools, but can't get the leaking ones out.

    He phoned around Canberra to see if a tool was available to extract them without success. He is now talking about disassembling them from the engine. Around $500-600. Each! New injectors are around $900 apparently.

    Does anyone have a solution to this problem. Eg, does an extraction tool exist?

    BTW he hasn't dealt a lot with Citroens but called my problem the Mercedes Benz disease because it is common in Mercs.

    TRT

  2. #2
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    There is a factory tool for this job, but if they are rusted in, you can break the tool quite easily. It's a bridge that lifts a holder with two slim jaws, which are meant to grab the top of the injector. If you can get around removing them (fuel cleaner?), leave them alone.

    Faced with your situation, I'd remove the bonnet and try to remove them with a large slide hammer to break the seal. You will need to find some way to connect the slide hammer to the injector without damage - chain or shackle perhaps. Otherwise, it becomes a case of sacrificing the injector to screw a slide hammer onto the bit you can't unscrew.

    You can buy used injectors locally and also from Europe.

  3. #3
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    It's a common UK problem due to the nature of damp weather, salty road spray and numbers of diesel cars. Independent injector removal specialists tout their trade - but even they don't claim stellar success rates.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    There is a factory tool for this job, but if they are rusted in, you can break the tool quite easily. It's a bridge that lifts a holder with two slim jaws, which are meant to grab the top of the injector. If you can get around removing them (fuel cleaner?), leave them alone.

    Faced with your situation, I'd remove the bonnet and try to remove them with a large slide hammer to break the seal. You will need to find some way to connect the slide hammer to the injector without damage - chain or shackle perhaps. Otherwise, it becomes a case of sacrificing the injector to screw a slide hammer onto the bit you can't unscrew.

    You can buy used injectors locally and also from Europe.
    Thanks David. Mechanic said he was going to try and manufacture a tool to extract them. I suspect that will be cheaper than the factory tool. Will tell him about availability of used injectors.

    BTW am relieved (a bit) to hear it is common problem in Europe. Unfortunately I can't find anyone advertising in Australia to do this work.

    TRT

  5. #5
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    TRT, I doubt you will find anyone in Australia advertising this stuff. The Citroen market is very small. Are they SAGEM injectors?

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    Default PSA Injector Removal

    Lots of info on this problem on YouTube, including this clip, specifically for PSA HDi engines.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...to2pU_Olk&NR=1

    Also, have a look at "BMW injector removal nightmare" for a creative solution.

    RobL

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    Default Next problem

    Seems that in trying to extract, he has loosened the sleeve in the cylinder head. Reckons he will ahve to dismantle teh head to fix problem.

    Suspect the bill is mounting to be more than the car iw worth.

    Not sure where that leaves me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobL View Post
    Lots of info on this problem on YouTube, including this clip, specifically for PSA HDi engines.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...to2pU_Olk&NR=1

    Also, have a look at "BMW injector removal nightmare" for a creative solution.

    RobL
    Thanks for that. Will send to my diesel doctor.

    TRT

  9. #9
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    That video is for the DW10/DW12 engine, but it's the same sort of problem as in the DV6 1.6 engine. It's good tool, but you can see they dismantle the injector to use it. Whether the plan there was to reassemble the injector and refit it, I don't know, but you'd probably try not to dismantle it and I'm sure it would be prohibited by the injector's manufacturer.

    I'm not sure what's on the outside of the injector tube, so how serious is the problem? Are there hot gases or coolant or just aluminium? Perhsps try to find that out before you remove the head and find you could have just tapped it back into the head and made sure it's sealed to the head. If it's in the coolant, then wouldn't you consider a Stop Leak type solution instead of pulling the whole thing apart. The injector itself would not rely on the tube to seal to the head and there will be a one-shot washer down there.

    If you do pull it apart further, consider whether the timing chain and tensioner should be replaced while you are in there. A bit of scoring on the camshaft bearing surfaces is likely and you can't replace them as they are part of the head. You will want to clean out the turbo feed, maybe replace the sintered gauze in the banjo and clean the drain properly - i.e. not just by pushing any crusty stuff back into the sump!

    It sometimes becomes a better option to just buy a good used engine, but I suspect you are not at that point.

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    Sorry 'ol buddy in my experiance, if the injector tube is loose [turning] it's a head off job. Most tubes are swadged into the head with a special tool at the bottom which ensures exact alignment to prevent injector distortion and "o"ringed at the top. Don't know about your motor but I still think it's, head off. Also be very careful if you intend to reuse those stuck injectors, the body will be distorted for sure and the tolerances are so very fine the nozzle/elements will undoubtedly jam as soon as the injector is refitted. Give all the injectors a coating of copperkote or anti seize grease before you put them back into the head. Good luck

  11. #11
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    We have a Citroen C4 1.6HDI turbo diesel purchased new in 2006. Now done 150k. Several of the seals on the injectors are leaking. The dealer has botched the job trying to remove the worst seized injector and the car is barely drive-able. This is a long story that I don't want to go into at the moment. I need to know if anyone can recommend a reliable workshop to remove the injector. I don't think a slide hammer will work and it probably needs hydraulic puller. So far no luck in sourcing one in Melbourne.

    This really is a major problem with the design of this engine and it is a shame that the quoted cost of repairs by the dealers is more than the value of the car. No wonder Citroen had a terrible reputation for defective engineering. Any suggestions are welcome except those that involve taking it back to any Citroen dealer. I have wasted enough time and money on them

  12. #12
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    We had a leaking injector in our 1.6 HDI EGS . It was stuck in the head. Robert Wells at Wells Repco Mornington Ph 59770866 was able to remove it and re install with new seals. He said he may have to destroy it to remove it, but this turned out not to be the case.He is a trained diesel mechanic and this is quite a common problem with BMW, Ford and MB engines. He did have the car for a week, as he said he applied some fluid to the injector site for 3 days before trying to remove it.We had the car serviced at the same time for a total cost of approx $600. He said a new injector would be at least $900 no problems since. He also diagnosed this as the original problem ( the smell of diesel) which the dealer could not
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  13. #13
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    Destruction of the injector is quite likely. The engine is shared with Ford and some others, so the injectors are probably available from other sources and would certainly be on offer from Europe new and used. It may be worth changing the top timing chain and tensioner at the same time because they do stretch/wear/rattle and you have to remove the injectors for access. If it gets too ugly, price a complete low kms used motor from someone like BM Spares. When it's all done, make sure the scuttle air intake is attached to the windscreen and stays there.

  14. #14
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    Default Stuck injector

    Thanks Bobsie, I will give them a call if all else fails. I think the stuck injector is damaged now and will need replacing. A good used injector is under $100 on ebay but I understand they are coded in the ECU and need to be programmed, which probably means a trip to the dealer. I will have to look at the economics of it all.

  15. #15
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    Thanks David,

    I am leaning towards a trade-in on a new car. I liked the C4 but we really need reliability at the moment. In hindsight a petrol C4 would have been a far better option . What we have saved on fuel costs has all gone in maintenance on the diesel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electroman View Post
    ... I understand they are coded in the ECU and need to be programmed...
    You obviously have to have the right type of injector for the engine, but as far as I am aware there is no coding needed.

    The fuel savings can be written off easily enough by filling it with petrol in error! Some maintenance items are a bit costly. Have you had to change the Eolys additive bag yet? At 150K, I'd have thought so, but if not, you would be up for it soon.

    If you wanted another C4, the 2.0HDi 6 speed auto is a good choice from the now superceded range. In the current range, the stop-start version is interesting.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by electroman View Post
    Thanks David,

    I am leaning towards a trade-in on a new car. I liked the C4 but we really need reliability at the moment. In hindsight a petrol C4 would have been a far better option . What we have saved on fuel costs has all gone in maintenance on the diesel.
    Hi electroman,
    Sorry about the problems. I have no answers either !!

    I was interested in your comment "What we have saved on fuel costs has all gone in maintenance on the diesel" If it is not too painfull could you put any details on this for those misguided souls, who might be considering buying a diesel
    cheers jaahn

  18. #18
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    The info about coding of the C4 diesel injectors comes from the C4 owners forum

    Forums / Technical Questions / Help on what code to input into Lexia for injectors. - C4 - DS4 Owners

  19. #19
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    The diesel C4 was about $3000 more than the petrol version and has returned around 5.5 l/100km The petrol version probably gets 7.5 l/100km. At $1.40/L for fuel and over 150,000km that's a saving of $4200. Interest that could be earned on $3000 over 7 years, say 5% uncompounded, is $1050. About break-even when you add this. We have had the oil changed more frequently, but not sure of how much extra this cost. The killer blow is that we have been quoted a rough estimate of $5000 by the dealer to fix all the injectors. Hope this helps.

  20. #20
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    I think you should look closely at these costs and compare like with like. Especially since the recent problems are in the front of your mind. And I can sympathise as it just cost me $3000 for similar injector work.But I think your calculations need some adjusting in a cooler light.

    Yeah, that looks about right for the diesel side. But my calculations take into account the costs of maintaining the petrol version over the same period. There are some offsets for diesels - especially in the eclectics (points, plugs, timing adjustments, etc). Plus it assumes that the petrol engine will never have a problem, which from my long experience with petrol engines is unrealistic.

    My opinion, based on my costs, is that the diesel still comes out as the more economical option. It's just not a huge saving that some might expect.

    Of course I don't know if my costings will hold up over time. But my C4 is now nearly 8 years old and has proved relatively reliable compared to my previous cars. My C5 is coming up to 3 and has no significant problems (so far). That said I'm not sure about the long-term costs of modern common rail turbo diesels.

    Tony

  21. #21
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    If you can get 7.5l/100km from a petrol C4 in the city I'll give you a medal. A more realistic figure would be 9.5. I have spoken to a few C4 diesel owners and they get 4.9l/100km in the city. On that basis since you were getting 5.5 out of your C4 HDi I would put the petrol consumption at about 10l/100km in the city for your usage. So the savings of the 4.5l/100 saved and at a more realistic $1.60 per litre is $10,800 over 150,000k. Then you have to factor in how much better to drive the diesel is and the fact you spend half the time in a service station. Thats got to be worth something too
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