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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Which Sikaflex

    Hi I have done a quick search but cant find a definitive answer, so can anyone advise which Sikoflex to use on a Citroen DS roof?


    Tks Brian

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmac View Post
    Hi I have done a quick search but cant find a definitive answer, so can anyone advise which Sikoflex to use on a Citroen DS roof?


    Tks Brian
    I used the following on my CX to attach the rear glass. As you may be aware they have a habit of becoming loose. I believe that it will work equally as well for a DS roof. The grip is phenominal!

    Product used-----Sikaflex 255E and Sika Activator Pro.

    Cheers Gerry

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    I used the following on my CX to attach the rear glass. As you may be aware they have a habit of becoming loose. I believe that it will work equally as well for a DS roof. The grip is phenominal!

    Product used-----Sikaflex 255E and Sika Activator Pro.

    Cheers Gerry
    Um.... "Phenomenal Grip" is the problem........ If you ever want to get that roof off "ever again" ...... You need to find the weakest "sealing.... less gluey" type possible

    Buggered if I know what type to actually use. There is quite a few of on here that are tuning into this thread. I bet Richo has researched this out though

    I was thinking of searching out a mastic that "never dries" for the ID roof .... It's a bolt on roof though, you'd probably want something that "sticks" for the bonded roof.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  4. #4
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    michaelr covered this a while ago and appears to have had success in sealing a bonded roof using Sikaflex 291, from what he has reported the roof has sealed and is completely water tight.

    Removing bonded roof 74' D Special

    The first objective (sealing the roof) having being successful, the possibility of having to remove the roof without damage in the future remains to be seen. I plan to do the same and use Sikaflex 291, I figure if the roof is sealed then it will be a very long time before it would need to be removed, if ever.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Perfect !!!!! Look at the specs for that stuff. Well I'm not looking any further either way It only has "light" adhesive properties.

    Sikaflex-291 is a 1-component, marine grade polyurethane elastomeric adhesive and sealant. Used by many boat builders, its fast cure time makes it ideal for applications where speed is important.

    Close Details
    Use
    General all-purpose marine sealant, which may be used for light duty bonding.
    Characteristics and Advantages
    Use above and below water line
    Resists salt water
    Fast strength build-up
    Excellent adhesion to gelcoat, fiberglass, metal and wood
    May be squeezed or brushed into place
    Stable
    Paintable
    Versatile packaging
    Excellent bond
    Fast tack-free time
    High solids content
    Sandable
    NSF approved for potable water (black and white only)
    USDA approved for incidental food contact
    Color
    White, Black, Colonial White

    Packaging
    300 ml cartridge, 600 ml unipac, 4.5 gal pail, 50 gal drum
    291 LOT sounds even better as you have time to fiddle around and get the roof exactly how you want it sitting.

    Sikaflex®-291 LOT
    Sikaflex-291 LOT is a 1-component, marine grade polyurethane elastomeric adhesive and sealant. It is a moisture cured, non-sag system designed with a long open time for jobs that require more time.

    Close Details
    Use
    General all-purpose marine sealant, which may be used for light duty bonding.

    Characteristics and Advantages
    Use above and below water line
    Resists salt water
    Long open time capability for humid climates or jobs requiring more time
    Paintable
    Versatile packaging
    Excellent bond
    Permanently elastic
    High strength
    Sandable
    NSF approved for potable water
    USDA approved for incidental food contact
    Color
    White, Black, Mahogany

    Packaging
    300 ml cartridge, 600 ml unipac
    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Yes you do need time to tool the excess compound on the later roof to achieve a nicely finished edge so that the plastic trim seal can fit over it.

    On the roof that we fitted on the 'Auto Nursery Resto' ( 1971 DS21) we use a Wurths compound. However I cannot remember which one. it turned out very well. Sadly that resto was compromised by a shortage of funds.
    For any early car with the bolt on roof perhaps a sealant that remains flexible would be more appropriate.

    The advantage of using the Sika Activator Pro is that it suitably primes the surface of the frame and the roof edge to increase the adhesion. The disadvantage is that it is expensive and that once opened there is a very short product life. The remnants from the job must be disposed of immediately and in a suitable manner so as not to offend the greenies.

    The problem with the original heated bonding strip ( Bostik I believe ) was that it did dry out and loose adhesion so maybe a low adhesive product is not the way to go!

    The seal on a bonded windscreen is removed using a wire " garrotte". I believe that this technique would work for removing a roof if it ever became necessary!

    Cheers Gerry
    Last edited by gerrypro; 8th August 2012 at 01:01 PM.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Use the "function desired" to determine your application material and quantity.

    People throw mastics around like there's no tomorrow.

    If you need to bond - prep, prime appropriately and use a requisite amount of the chosen stuff.

    If you need only to seal, quantities required are generally far less than for bonding and should be applied in a way that allows dissembly without damage. Again, prep and prime first. You might even consider a closed cell backing strip to futher thin the sealant bed.

    You can still buy non-hardening mastics, even tins of Dum-Dum (not that it's easy to find here).

  8. #8
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    Icon14 Personal choice and product strengths.

    At the risk of intruding into a CIT thread I guess the choice boils down to your need to unbolt the roof in the forseeable future. The absolute Sikkaflex adhesive will hold and seal like it has been welded, so is there ever a need to remove it?

    Once you make that choice, then the next consideration is the manipulation time needed in a D.I.Y. situation, to get it sitting just right.

    Then you have cosmetic consideration as to the finish you wish to achieve, sounds like the bolt holes could be eliminated in a modern "sealed for life" contact if one wished and then adhesion and appearance of the finishes to be used in the completed job.

    Bottom line is that it gets back on the road with a leak and corrosion free seal!

    I really like all the Sikkaflex products, well worth the price IMHO! the adhesion and durability is excellent.

    Ken.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I was thinking of searching out a mastic that "never dries" for the ID roof .... It's a bolt on roof though, you'd probably want something that "sticks" for the bonded roof.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post

    You can still buy non-hardening mastics, even tins of Dum-Dum (not that it's easy to find here).
    Wurth do a non setting mastic if that's your choice for a bolt on roof? I wouldn't think suitable for a bonded roof?



    I've used this for sealing under the windscreen on my project. It comes in 10mm dia. on a 10 metre roll.



    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Is that a metric Leatherman? I gave mine away because it was imperial.

    My point was as much about quantities; overdoing it serves no benefit and may come to hamper you in the future.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Is that a metric Leatherman? I gave mine away because it was imperial.

    My point was as much about quantities; overdoing it serves no benefit and may come to hamper you in the future.
    The Leatherman, so that's where I left it, I've been searching for it for two years

    Take your point on quantities, replacing the roof is a job I'm yet to tackle - soon though, oh yes, soon, finally have a lining I'm happy with

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Wurth do a non setting mastic if that's your choice for a bolt on roof? I wouldn't think suitable for a bonded roof?



    I've used this for sealing under the windscreen on my project. It comes in 10mm dia. on a 10 metre roll.



    Cheers
    Chris
    That would be perfect. Where on earth do you buy it from You would lay a bed of that to sit the roof on and pull it down into the tape as you tighten the bolts. The roof seal i would put a fine bead of "never dry" mastic into, then clip it onto the roof.

    You have just shown me what appears the easiest way to get the windscreen sealed too

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    That would be perfect. Where on earth do you buy it from You would lay a bed of that to sit the roof on and pull it down into the tape as you tighten the bolts. The roof seal i would put a fine bead of "never dry" mastic into, then clip it onto the roof.

    You have just shown me what appears the easiest way to get the windscreen sealed too

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Wurth don't have retail outlets to the best of my knowledge. I got lucky when a Wurth rep called in on a neighbour at work. He was happy to use his staff account and purchased on my behalf, they have a great range of products but their website is very clunky and difficult to extract information from - talking to a rep gets you what you are looking for in moments.

    Other than a 3M product which we don't appear to get in Aus, the Wurth mastic is as close to the factory seal for the lower windscreen as you will find.

    If you are interested and do have trouble making a purchase give me a hoy

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks GB,

    I'll ask around locally. @ 10meters I think i'll need 2rolls. That should be enough for two windscreens and one roof (the later bonded roof will be the sikaflex above).

    I'll contact wurth, I'm sure they'll have a local rep somewhere

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Wurh are good, and most reps will happily sell you just one item, delivered to you.

    Remember good doesn't mean cheap. However you should get a tube of CU800 off your rep (note, not cheap) but the best copper type grease on the market by a country mile.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    3M-4200 semi permanent polyurethane adhesive/sealant is used as widely as Sika 291 and is just as easily obtainable. It is commonly used for deck fittings on yachts/powerboats where the fitting must be sealed to the deck but must be readily removable if damaged. It only hardens on the outside, providing excellent vibration and flex resistance.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Wurh are good, and most reps will happily sell you just one item, delivered to you.

    Remember good doesn't mean cheap. However you should get a tube of CU800 off your rep (note, not cheap) but the best copper type grease on the market by a country mile.
    I'm sure it's far from cheap. There are times when you need to use the correct product. This is one of them Certainly there fun to deal with, there website is crap and helps not in the slightest. I rang the information number and was tranfered to an answering machine, then tried again and was sent to someone in Swan Hill (when I asked for Ballarat, maybe that's there nearest rep).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    Tadpole
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    Default Thankyou All

    Lots of good info.

    The roof was originally glued on with some type of black silicon/mastic product. It was hard to remove, but I ended up using a wire "garrotte" and slowly running it under the roof.
    I've had it off for over 2 years so its now time to finish the job.

    Will post pics as I go

    Thanks again

    Brian

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Halo Brian
    I too use Sika 255extra,great results.I have 4 here which I have done over the years,you are most welcome to inspect them.
    Woody

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    Tadpole
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    Thanks Brian May take you up on that

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    There is a Wurth shop in Melbourne in Dingley, I have used plenty of it in the past, and I it is a great product. I thought I might use it for the bolt on roof. I have since spoken to Sikaflex ( they are very helpful on the phone ). Now after speaking to a few people I am leaning toward the Sikaflex. I have always used the Wurth stuff, I love it, it is very good as a windscreen sealant, you can see on 2 different cars, and I can say that it has never failed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Which Sikaflex-wurth-1.jpg   Which Sikaflex-wurth-2.jpg  

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    I've used the adhesive grade sika on a few roofs, and had to remove one which came away without issue.

    The trick is the adhesive type can be used in conjunction with the rubber seal, which is where the roof can be easily broken if it's ever required to come off again.

    Cheers,

    Mark...

  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Roof sitting in Place after a day of painting, unfotunately very light rain hit it while touch dry, but I still have to rub it back to remove some dust particles (fun painting in a shed) to then put a Gloss coat on.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Which Sikaflex-dsc_0272small.jpg  

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmac View Post
    Roof sitting in Place after a day of painting, unfotunately very light rain hit it while touch dry, but I still have to rub it back to remove some dust particles (fun painting in a shed) to then put a Gloss coat on.
    That looks really good. Dark reds always photograph so nicely
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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