Cold start 2003 C5 Hdi
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Default Cold start 2003 C5 Hdi

    I sold my old C5 (Odebt) to a friend. On these frosty mornings she refuses to start. Slow turnover on the motor indicated the battery was down. The battery was tested at 12.5 volts. My friend suspected several faults that were not related to the battery as it is a new one( less than 1 year) old. Went over to his place and connected my cars battery to his with my engine running, she fired up immediately ( she was pleased to see me). Much faster turnover.
    When warm his battery seems fine and she fires up OK.

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    He thought the following may be at fault.
    1. Starter motor starting to fail.
    2. Glow plugs faulty.
    3. Fuel filter clogged.

    I believe it must be the battery, even though the voltage seems ok. Is there a simple test of the battery capacity(amperage?) Any thoughts?
    Allan.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Typical behaviour of a battery starting to sulphate up with its internal resistance rising. Take it cold to an autoelectrician to measure.
    A rough check is to measure the voltage at the battery terminals when all is cold and the starter is engaged. If less than 10v think about another battery. If ok repeat measurement at the starter. Any difference to the battery voltage of more than 0.5 v suspect the terminals and wiring - another common fault.

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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Battery checked OK, Slow cranking speed, fails to start. We are thinking it could be the starter. Could need new brushes, what do you think? Can they be purchased in au? If so where?
    Any clue how to get access for removal.

    Allan.

  5. #5
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    Battery checked OK, Slow cranking speed, fails to start. We are thinking it could be the starter. Could need new brushes, what do you think? Can they be purchased in au? If so where?
    Any clue how to get access for removal.

    Allan.
    I'm not convinced a slow-cranking starter is anything other than a battery, however I'm sure brushes are not hard to find.

    Try this thread or this link

    You could try cleaning the battery terminals, if they look a bit cruddy.

    Looking from the front of the car, the starter is on the front of the engine below and to the right of the fuel filter. With added C5 hydraulics, it may be even harder to get to. See yellow circled bit in picture. Probably easier from below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cold start 2003 C5 Hdi-dw10starter.jpg  
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Thank's SLC.

  7. #7
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    Look on the case of the starter to find the generic type, like DR6. Lots of PSA cars used DR6 starters, but the suffix numbers vary because the cast body and maybe pinion position differs. It should be easy to get brushes for a DR6 family starter. If you think it's the starter, try removing the end cover and checking/cleaning the brushes and see if the copper segments need tidying.

    Many workshops have a fairly sophisticated battery tester unit now and that's the best way to check it properly. You'd need to do the cold cranking test for about 10 seconds and measure the voltage fall off. If the battery can take only a weak surface charge, it may give an initially strong voltage, but be unable to deliver it for long. Although most batteries are apparently sealed, you can normally get the top off and check the electrolyte level and perhaps add one of the additives that are supposed to extend battery life. A new battery is less expensive than a starter.
    Last edited by David S; 30th July 2012 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    I sold my old C5 (Odebt) to a friend. On these frosty mornings she refuses to start. Slow turnover on the motor indicated the battery was down. The battery was tested at 12.5 volts. My friend suspected several faults that were not related to the battery as it is a new one( less than 1 year) old. Went over to his place and connected my cars battery to his with my engine running, she fired up immediately ( she was pleased to see me). Much faster turnover.
    When warm his battery seems fine and she fires up OK.

    He thought the following may be at fault.
    1. Starter motor starting to fail.
    2. Glow plugs faulty.
    3. Fuel filter clogged.

    I believe it must be the battery, even though the voltage seems ok. Is there a simple test of the battery capacity(amperage?) Any thoughts?
    Allan.
    Sounds like it's certainly the battery. Try checking the voltage while the starter is being operated, I bet it isn't remotely close to 12volts

    Battery testers apply a heavy load to the battery and record the current draw and voltage drop under load.

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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    The battery drops to 10v and the cranking speed is very slow. We connected a truck battery with jumper leads and kept the truck running with the same results. Allan

  10. #10
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    HI,
    10 volts is on the edge. Allmost not enough for starting modern all electronic engines.

    However do not dismiss the possibility of two faults ganging up together. The battery might be suspect AND the starter brushes on the edge, OR the lead connections not as good as they look.

    The answer lies in doing the diagnostics ON THE CAR. On the forum can only go so far !!
    Cheers Jaahn

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Latest on the problem.
    We came to the conclusion that the slow cranking speed was due to the starter. Several tests showed it wasn't the various batteries we tried. My mate also found a site that found that slow cranking may shut off some injectors????
    The starter was removed and taken to an auto electrician. He took it apart and declared the brushes were OK. He went further and found the armature loose and the end bearing collapsed. So the motor was fighting against its own internal friction to enable it to turn.
    The main interest to us is that the motor is a Mitsubishi. A new motor will be here tomorrow ( one day delivery). I wonder how many people have ordered OEM parts not realising that the component is a commonly available part?
    I will report on the result when the new starter arrives.

    Allan

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    The new starter is now fitted. Two days from removal to fitting, not bad for this outpost of civilisation.
    The removal and fitting was done from the top of the engine bay and required the removal of the air cleaner and the battery. As with all these replacement jobs it required very nimble fingers. The replacement must have all cables connected before the starter is bolted on.
    The car now cranks and starts immediately.

    HOWEVER. When road tested, several faults came up on the computer screen. The car was in the slow mode. Pollution fault etc.
    After much reasoning by my mate, he concluded it must be related to the air filter he had removed and cleaned. He removed the filter again and examined the sensor after the filter. There is a plug fitted to a transducer in the barrel of the air intake. Below the transducer are 4 terminals. Between 2 of the terminals was a wire. The other 2 had the wire missing, remnants of the wire were close to the terminals. He then bridged a wire between the two empty terminals and soldered the wire in place. ( electronics experience)

    The car is now running well. All fault problems have been cleared.

    Allan.

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