C5 2.2 Hdi camshaft timing after doing timing belt
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default C5 2.2 Hdi camshaft timing after doing timing belt

    Hi All,

    Replaced the timing belt etc on my 05 2.2 Hdi C5 yesterday. Tried to start it today and it won't and the code reader says that the camshaft timing is out.

    2 possibilities:
    1) I got the belt wrong by one tooth, even though I turned it around by hand twice and then rechecked the slots and they lined up.
    2) When i tensioned the belt I loosened the 3 screws on the camshaft (for fine tuning) and then forgot to do them back up again, so when I first turned it by hand, the camshaft moeved a few mm to teh maximum that the slots allowed and the motor wouldn't turn. I then realised my mistake, turned the crank pully back a smidgen, retightened the slot screws on teh crankshaft to where I thought it was supposed to be and somehow got it all wrong... I have mucked around with the fine tuning on the crankshaft and it still won't start and the same error message keeps coming back.

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    I had to tow it out of the shed to make room for another job I had been promising to my daughter, so when I tow it back in again, I will try redoing option 1) and check it still lines up, BUT

    is there anything else I might have missed????? I don't think I knocked any leads off.

    Some help would be helpful,
    Regards, Erik

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger
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    I gather you didn't pin the cam and crank then? Perhaps wind it over by hand and see if you can pin it up. If not, it's wrong.
    Also, I have a vague memory of a story about someone changing a belt on a 2.2 or 2.0 and damaging some pickup or indicator behind the pulley. If I find out more, I'll let you know.

  3. #3
    Sara Watson's Stalker
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    I have seen a report of similar "no start/cam timing problem" on a 1.6 HDi engine. In this case, the inter-cam coupling chain had stretched badly and turning the motor backwards spoiled its cam timing rather well.

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the thoughts. I did pin the cam and the crankshaft and it did line up again a few turns later.

    I only turned it backwards 1 tooth. I am not sure it has an intercam chain thingy...

    But thanks for the thoughts. I will have another go at it on Sat and go back to the start again - sigh.

    Erik

  5. #5
    Sara Watson's Stalker
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    http://www.406oc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13793

    AFAIK that's your motor layout - see the chain and guide? And the cam sensor is on the front cam - while the belt drives the rear, indicating the possible outcome you've experienced.

    I'd love to know why they haven't gone to the lobe-shaped locking blocks that modern Fiat/Alfa stuff uses. Dead simple and foolproof, plus it forces you to change the cam cover gaskets.

  6. #6
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    Sorry Addo, I get only half of what you are saying

    So there is a chain thingy!

    I can still have the cam timing right, but by turning it back a smidgen, the chain tensioner has taken up some slack and altered the timing of the other cam????

    Bum????

    Erik

  7. #7
    Sara Watson's Stalker
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    You have two cams, but one pulley. So the cams are linked by that short chain which rides on a curved guide.

    Chains can stretch, guides wear*. I do not know how the chain is timed to the cams. As you wound the motor backwards, it is possible the upper side - without curved tensioner - lacked sufficient tension to stop the chain slipping. Think of the "failsafe" way a stuck chain on a chainsaw rides up the sprocket to avoid injury.



    Guns aren't lawful, nooses give. It just - in re-reading - made me think of that famous doggerel.

  8. #8
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    It looks like this ...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails C5 2.2 Hdi camshaft timing after doing timing belt-4hx_camchain.jpg  

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Ken W's Avatar
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    Isn't it important to pin the diesel HP pump on these too?

    Ken W

  10. #10
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    i think Ken, but could be wrong, that on these more recent diesel engines, the diesel pump is just a pump that provides constant pressure, while the electronic injectors allow the diesel to squirt into the cylinder at teh right moment.

    ??

    Erik

  11. #11
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    Default very interesting

    so im gathering that pin 3 goes through to locate the sprocket as it dousnt appear to go through the web in the rubber belt pulley ,there must be marks on the cam shafts somewhere ,i gather that thing on the top of the chain is the tensioner ,and how douse the ecu know that the timing is out ,must be some sensors somewhere ,PUGS

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the pics David, unfortunately the chain marks on the camshafts don't line up every turn and it can take up to 40 revolutions to get them to do so. Given that I was tired enough turning the motor over twice by hand, I have tried some other things first.

    I did take the cam covers off and looked at the chain. It was quite tight, even after I had removed the tensioning device, si I doubt it has skipped a tooth.

    I have rechecked the timing and readjusted the camshaft bolts a bit and am absolutely sure the two pins are in - one in the camshaft and one in the crankshaft.

    It still doesn't start...

    I will try putting the old belt on (which I marked) and see what happens.



    Erik

  13. #13
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    Default Runs but...

    Let me start by saying that I can now get it running (roughly).

    I put the old belt back on and it ran sweetly. Hurrah! No conspiracy theories of skipped chains on the other cam shaft. And BTW, the sensor for the camshaft is actually on the same one as the cambelt goes around.

    Rechecked the new belt and had put it on 1 tooth out, but had nevertheless managed to correctly time it according to the bolt stops on the crank and cam shaft.
    Put belt back on properly, adjusted the timing according to the bolts by adjusting the rear most camshaft. - doesn't run.

    Turn it a few more times and recheck the bolts - out a bit, so adjust again - doesn't run.

    Adjust it with the bolts a smidgeon clockwise (ie the camshaft is rotated clockwise in relation to the timing belt - advanced?) - it runs now, but roughly.

    Go back to house for recuperative glass of wine and will look at it tomorrow - again.

    Statements:

    • It isn't really very fair when the timing marks can't be used to change the cambelt.
    • It discourages home mechanics.
    • I did actually ask my mechanic whether it was straight forward before I tackled it.
    • It isn't fair

    Questions:

    • So how do I time it now?
    • Do I just keep adjusting it a smidgen until it runs sweetly?



    Grrrrrrr! Erik

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Ken W's Avatar
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    Has the crankshaft pulley outer with timing marks spun on the inner with key slots for the crank as they do on the Xantia petrol engines? This will mean that the timing marks on the crank pulley will be out of place with respect to the crank position. You could solve this be buying a new crankshaft pulley. If the existing one has spun a bit already, it will continue to get worse with time and further aircon compressor shock load.

    Alternatively. perhaps what you could do is transfer the tooth marks from the old belt to the new belt and fit it the same as the old belt was fitted. That would get you going until you could get a new crank pulley to get it lined up correctly.

    Cheers,

    Ken W

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    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    OH dear. As Moriaty suggested to Neddie Seagoon, "Try shouting Heeeellllppp!"

  16. #16
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    Are the new and old belts exactly the same? Count the teeth. I have a vague memory of there once being an error in what was in the bag, so it does happen sometimes. If you can get it to run with the old belt, then it makes no sense that you can't get it to run with the correct new belt if that's all you've changed.

  17. #17
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    Thanks for the further thoughts...

    The crankshaft timing is from a locking pin set into the crownwheel(?) through a hole in the gearbox casing, so I haven't been using any timing marks on the crankshaft pulley, so I am reasonably happy that I have that one pegged (ha ha) so to speak, although never having taken the gearbox out, I can only hope that there is only one slot in that unviewable region. Also, the timing belt cog has the key at 12 O'clock, which seems normal.

    I haven't counted the teeth on the new and old belts, but I did count from the camshaft to the crankshaft, to make sure that I had the pulling side of things correct. Even if it were a tooth extra in length, if I can get it to tension (which I can), it should still achieve the same effect.

    I am feeling optimistic today so... but I haven't got out of bed yet

    Erik

  18. #18
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    Default Done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just so you don't lose any further sleep during lunch today, I thought I would let you know that I have done it! Yes she runs - sweetly.

    A further smidgen of adjustment of the cam sprocket to a slightly less advanced setting has been the thing. Or, in the words of the Landrover forum, on how to adjust the timing of your 300tdi, advance the injector pump (in my case the cam lobes) until it starts to pre-ignite = runs too rough and then turn it back a bit (a further smidgen) until it runs sweetly.

    Does it make any sense? No.

    Thanks for you helpful support, even if it did defy the ordinary knowledge base.

    Erik

  19. #19
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    Default Done

    Hi,
    Sounds good. However I worry about that 'adjusting the position of the cam wheel till it runs OK'. I would be finding the correct timing position for the long haul.

    I have no information on the 2.2 but have on the 2.0 twin cam diesel. It shows the rear locking peg goes into the flywheel. The other goes into the cam wheel and also shows the chain drive for the second cam.

    However it has a "loose keyway" for the timing belt drive pulley on the crankshaft. That is it has space on each side of the key so the pulley is free to move a little each way, perhaps 4-5 mm. It is not held tight as the holding bolt has been taken out to remove the front pulley etc. Is your model the same as this ?? If so that would explain the problem. Any experts out there offer an opinion.

    The idea is to get the timing exact after the belt is fitted, then the bolt is tightened to lock the bottom pulley in the exact place. You may have circumvented this second last step. Removing the lock pins is the last step.

    jaahn

  20. #20
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    I worry about it too Jaahn, but it is better to worry while having a car that works...

    The only thing that makes sense is that i haven't got the locking pin into the correct slot in the crown wheel to lock the crankshaft. However, it is in an impossible to see spot and without taking the gearbox off, i have no way of verifying it to be correct, except that with the pin in the camshaft and with the keyway at12 O'clock, it seems to go in.

    Has anyone removed an AL4 auto box from the 2.2hdi C5?

    Erik

  21. #21
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    The 2.2 DW12 engine doesn't have the damper that turned like the 2.0. You can just undo the bolt and it cn be removed without affecting the timing on the 2.2. The 4 speed auto mated to the 2.2 single turbo is a ZF 4HP20, not an AL4.

  22. #22
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    Default pins

    the peugeot 405 srdt and 306 common rail i have worked on both have that locating pin that goes through the crank case behind the starter motor ,[a tent peg ],i did a cam belt on a Cleo a while back, it had no key on the crank, only a locking devise on the two cams and a pin that went through the side of the crankcase into the crank web ,just had to make sure you did that crank bolt up real tight ,PUGS was waiting to hear your result

  23. #23
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    Thinking further about Jaahn's concern that the valve timing should be exactly right, I am inclined to agree and may have to go and have another look at it.

    It seems a bit wierd to make the valve timing adjustable as the only way of tensioning the cam belt. Because the camshaft sensor is on the camshaft that is being adjusted, the injector timing is also altered (and made right) by this adjustment.

    On older diesels, you adjust the injection pump separately to the valve timing, whereas on this motor, the two are linked and even if it runs OK, the valve timing should only have one position that is best, which should be when the locking pins both line up.

    Have now driven it for a bit and performance seems fine and fuel consumption is about normal, so I must have got it close...

    Erik

  24. #24
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    Hmmm - back in the shed again.

  25. #25
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    It may be possible for the locking pins to seem to fit at more than one location. Perhaps, check for this about where you think it should lock in place?

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