DS BVM to BVH conversion.
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Icon10 DS BVM to BVH conversion.

    Hi Everyone!

    Well the title says it all! I always wanted a BVH but a carby version. The problem is that I can't find a BVH that I can pay, they are either too expensive or long gone, so after I heared my friend wanted to change his safari from a BVH to a BVM we decided to swop my BVM bits for BVH bits. So finally I will have a BVH, so Edith, after 38 years will be a BVH!!

    Now I would like to know which of you guys have ever done this before?

    Other than changing the

    *steering column
    *Gearbox
    *fitting selector box
    *changing carbys
    *Fitting centrifugal regulator
    *changing lower dash
    *ignition switch
    *indicator, wiper etc part change
    *clutch slave unit
    *fit gear lever unit
    *extra piping for CCR and CR
    *pipes on brake caliper for CCR and CR
    *removing clutch pedal unit
    *removing manual handbrake unit
    *fitting BVH handbrake unit
    *pulley of HP pump

    Should I change the main accumilator regulator? Different cut in/out pressure? I don't think so but worth it to be sure.

    My car is already in the garage being pulled apart, (pics coming soon), But looks like I will have to put her together because we have a L15 mystery weekend this weekend and I wanted to go with Edith (my L15 still years from seeing a road), but I am so excited about converting my car that I can hardly contain myself.

    I think to be safe I will have to fit a starter relay on my car (that unit on the battery with a push button underneath) Our cars here in South Africa never had them. Basically all the current passes through the ignition switch itself..... I would like to keep it orinigal and a new unit is around 70 euros then import taxes and everything still need to be added Doesn't matter I know I am going to do it I think I should get a new centrifugal regulator while I am at it....

    Anything I should be wary of when converting? Or maby pay special attention to something?

    All help always appreciated

    Thanks
    Corne

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    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  2. #2
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    Are you going to get caught out with the clutch arrangement? Do both cars have the same or is one a toggle clutch and the other a diaphragm? Edith, being 1975, should have the later diaphragm clutch. Is the Safari a similar vintage or earlier? Not all flywheels and clutches are the same and some are drilled differently to set the timing pin. I know there are two different clutch slave's, but I'm not sure what the difference in application is offhand.

    Perhaps, change the camshaft seal on both cars while the gearboxes are removed? Also a great time to change the handbrake pads etc..

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    David

    Thanks I forgot about the different clutch slave cylinders, The safari (car which the system comer from) is a 3 finger clutch with the small clutch slave cylinder and my EFI semi auto with a diaphraghm clutch uses the larger cylinder, guess I should get me a larger clutch slave cylinder..

    My friend is using the smaller clutch slave cylinder on his diaphraghm clutch DS23 BVH and so far it has been working, what difference will it make? I can remember him complaining about the car being a little bit jerky no matter how he tried to get rid of it, could that be the culprite?

    Will the 2 different flywheels make a difference to the workability of the hydraulic system, since the system comes from a 3 finger clutch and going onto Edith with a diaphraghm clutch?

    David, at the moment Edith has done 20 000 km with the overhauled engine. (I changed the engine to a 2.1 in 2010) , so I am not going to worry about the camshaft seal I think it will be ok. I am not sure about the safari though... I will ask the owner

    Thanks
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 12th July 2012 at 01:24 AM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  4. #4
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    Hi Corne,
    Good luck with the swap over, I have thought about doing it but couldn't find a suitable donor car! Don't forget the LHM tank is different too, 2 extra rubber pipes entering the top.

    Regards
    Ed

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Now that will be funny, do everything but forget about the return fluid.

    Thanks
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    David

    Thanks I forgot about the different clutch slave cylinders, The safari (car which the system comer from) is a 3 finger clutch with the small clutch slave cylinder and my EFI semi auto with a diaphraghm clutch uses the larger cylinder, guess I should get me a larger clutch slave cylinder..

    My friend is using the smaller clutch slave cylinder on his diaphraghm clutch DS23 BVH and so far it has been working, what difference will it make? I can remember him complaining about the car being a little bit jerky no matter how he tried to get rid of it, could that be the culprite?

    Will the 2 different flywheels make a difference to the workability of the hydraulic system, since the system comes from a 3 finger clutch and going onto Edith with a diaphraghm clutch?

    David, at the moment Edith has done 20 000 km with the overhauled engine. (I changed the engine to a 2.1 in 2010) , so I am not going to worry about the camshaft seal I think it will be ok. I am not sure about the safari though... I will ask the owner

    Thanks
    Corne

    Corne,

    The larger clutch piston provides a bit more push on the fork - the pipe feeding the clutch piston may also be a bit different (they have a calibrated restriction at the end) - but a quick check of part numbers would or should tell if they are the same or not.

    The 'jerkiness' of a BVH clutch can come from a number to things and just a bit to hard to diagnose from a distance. The main difference between a toggle and diaphragm plate, other than OD, is the greater clamping force the latter exerts on the disc.

    The actual pressures in the system did not change. IOW cut-in/cut-out of the regulator should be in the range of 2100 to 2500psi (pilot valve regulators).

    Steve

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    steve

    do you mean the pipe itself has got a restriction inside or the unit?
    I will be able to tell you nexxt weekend what the part number on the unit is

    thanks
    corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    steve

    do you mean the pipe itself has got a restriction inside or the unit?
    I will be able to tell you nexxt weekend what the part number on the unit is

    thanks
    corne
    Hi Corne,

    The pipe is restricted at the end, the tip is factory shaped so that fluid opening is on the order of 1mm or so if memory serves me right. AFAIK it is the only such pipe in the car. There are a couple of other pipes that have calibrated wires shoved inside them to control fluid flow, but the clutch cylinder feed (BVH) is the only one I know of where the end of the pipe has been reformed to slow down fluid flow. It will really not slow down pressure going into the clutch cylinder - but slow down its escape a bit.

    Steve

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    When I replaced the seals in the clutch unit on my efi I didn't take notice
    of that, well it seems to do the trick because the car works! stripping begins tonight, not going to the l15 mystery weekend
    I want to get this car going!

    cheers
    corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  10. #10
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    I was thinking that you would need to swap everything from the flywheel forward to make sure it all worked. If you didn't, you might find that neither car worked correctly after the swap! You would be able to compare both sets of parts once dismantled.

    If you look at the manual, you will find there were changed in the position of the timing pin drilling in the flywheel relative to TDC, so you need to know what you are dealing with after the change in both cars. I think the earlier cars were 10 degrees BTDC, while it change to TDC later.

  11. #11
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Corne,
    Having done the job, there are a number of other aspects which require thought and parts.

    The firewall cover plate has to be changed.
    Steering rack cover plates on chassis require changing.
    Throttle rods will likely be different.
    Lots of brackets need to make the swap to support the pipework and CR. All steering binnacle switches and binnacle. Hydraulic pump brackets.

    You haven't detailed the specification and year of the two cars involved. The best way the job can be done is to have the donor car next to yours. if the year models are the same or very close then that's a good thing.

    The job took a friend and I 10 days to complete. Long days.
    There's more to this job than meets the eye, but unfortunately Corne, my hands don't work very well any more, typing is painful.
    It's doable and logical, but only when the two cars are together.

    Good luck. Hope this helps some.


    When you have the two cars side by side, more will be revealed and be obvious.
    Last edited by richo; 12th July 2012 at 09:15 PM.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Thanks Richo

    Yes that is exactly what I wanted to know, regarding what needs to change. That helps alot, I didn't think about the throttle linkage, or the steering rack cover plates, I will have a good look.

    The firewall plate you talk about, is it the aluminium (shiny) plate behind the engine, that's the only plate I can think of in the area.

    The brackets and piping I am not worried about I will take pics of it on the other car and transfer to my car. A big problem is the fact that the other car is 400km from me, so there won't be a chance of getting them side by side. My EFI should be of some help, the outlay should be relatively the same as the carby? Apart from the clutch re engagement unit, the position and plumbing is totally different.

    Ok the donor car is a 3rd dash 1972 2.1 short stroke Safari (BVH) The owner changes all his flywheels to the older 3 finger type.

    My car is a 1975 DS23 , third dash ofcourse (but changed to a 2.1 engine short stroke, with 5spd manual box) Diaphraghm clutch.

    I need to overhaul my car's HP pump so I will fit the extra bracket needed (leaking from the central shaft)

    That's why I posted this thread, I also thought there is quite a bit more work than what meets the eye, that's why I am glad you posted here, I thought that possibly you would have done this before

    David.

    I think that if I use the bigger clutch slave cylinder it will work on the diaphraghm clutch, maby I will have to change the centrifugal regulator to the ones used on the EFI BVH, The weights in the front part of the CR are smaller on the EFI than on the carby, maby because all EFI's had diaphraghm clutches and the bigger clutch slave cylinder?

    Still I will only know if the system really truely works once it is on my car... A dangerous gesture I know but which other way will you be 100% certain?

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  13. #13
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    The plate is where the steering wheel exits the firewall on its way to the steering rack.

    It is imperative, if you are to complete a conversion correctly to have the donor car present.
    If this is not possible, the likelihood of error is significantly increased.

    Either you take your car there, or bring the donor car to you.
    400ks, is that all?
    I was 1500ks by road and 450ks by sea away from my donor car.
    The job was done under a plastic tarpaulin in the dirt, with the tools we had brought with us.
    An offered engine crane was the only additional piece of equipment we had at our disposal, which was invaluable.

    My friend wanted to go home when he saw the conditions and realised the task. It took some convincing him that we could do it, especially as I was suffering from a back injury, which lost me the first two days, I was unable to walk.
    In addition, I had a significant skin graft on my leg from a cancer operation (which took a further 5 months to heal) and quite some distance from medical help. The wound required inspection and dressing every two days.

    We had 10 days only, to complete the conversion, then the same journey back to home.
    We did the job in the time window available.

    Corne, if you want to do the job properly, please, heed my words. I am speaking from experience.
    Last edited by richo; 12th July 2012 at 11:06 PM. Reason: spelling

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Richo

    Ok then I already have a problem since the owner of the Safari already removed the whole system, or at least in the process, when we last spoke he told me the gearbox is out of the safari, knowing the person he is he already removed 3 quarters of the system by now.

    So looks like this will be one very difficult process after all

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Corne, it is going to take you longer and provide headaches.
    Still it is not impossible.

    My other car is in the process, conversion to LHM (completed), short stroke engine (completely rebuilt) from long stroke, converting a late manual transmission into the BVH casing for BVH conversion after starting life as an ID , plus converting from ID dash to slopey DS dash.
    This one's taking more than 10 days, more like dragging on into years. My interest waxes and wanes with the flow and ebb of the tides of life.

    Make yourself a pressure tester. VITAL. If you cannot check the clutch throwout operation you could be in for doing the job more than once.
    Ask me how I know. Again, first hand experience, not speculation.

    Take your time, you have plenty of it. Hope this helps.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    I have an idea.
    Pick up a carby LHD BVH and import it to SA.
    You can still get them for reasonable prices if they need a little work.
    You could have all the driving fun, and be on the wrong side of the car.

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    I have an idea.
    Pick up a carby LHD BVH and import it to SA.
    You can still get them for reasonable prices if they need a little work.
    You could have all the driving fun, and be on the wrong side of the car.
    I wish I could do it, but unfortunately a few years ago South Africa brought in this law which forbids the importing of LHD cars either private or commercial, and current owners of LHD vehicles may not sell them, ever ie. no change of ownership.....

    So although I would like one I won't be able to own one... My friend with the safari is very fortunate in that regard, he has got a 1967 DS21 pallas BVH LHD an LHM car

    Richo

    I think with the tester I am ok, I have got a Fenwich test bench with all the pipes and guages and pump Same one as in the DS manual, I have the feeling it's going to be very handy!! I paid quite a bit for the bench but it's worth it!! (going to fetch it tomorrow)

    I have got some time, I don't need to break speed records in the conversion.... Damn 10 days Make mine at least around 30 days working mostly at night, fotunately in a clean freshly built garage hehe, no more gravel back and knees
    Pictures up tonight!!

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi everyone

    Here is some work I did last night. I only had 2 hours so I couldn't do much, but at least something was done! Tomorrow morning I will continue (hope this cooold windy weather gets better!!)



    At least this time round I can fiddle with the car in a covered shed!!



    Unbelieveable how dirty an engine bay gets and quickly also!! Gear linkages removed



    Please excuse the dirty engine Don't like it this way!! Column shift out completely



    Binnacle removed, wirezzzz nah that's easy Thanks Bill!!



    A few of the parts removed, tomorrow hopefully alot more will be done!! Clutch pedal also removed

    Well since I am moving all my tools into the shed, I may aswell hang some memorabilia Just a few DS thingies



    Sorry for the poor quality, Still have to fit some lights in the shed.





    Nice to have them, keeps you going when you battle to keep these cars going

    My favourite, still need to hang it somewhere!!



    I picked up my Fenwick test bench today, but I suspect a few fittings are missing.... Will have to look carefully and see what I need to source to have all the pipes etc.







    I think I must take these guages off at some point and send them in to be recalibrated, I suspect years of use may cause them to be a bit un accurate. Pump works just fine!


    Well that's all for now, I will post some more when I have done a bit more

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi everyone!!

    Well I visited my frien this weekend and we exchanged parts, WOW, it's alot of things to put in!! Apart from the gearbox there is a huge list that needs to be changed. The flicker, wiper and headlight stalks on my friend's BVH was looking scruffy with the chrome peeling off, so I kept mine, the flicker light stalk was easy to modify, but the PALLAS headlight stalk with the extra switch on the side for the turning headlights is in the way so I will probably have to modify the bracket to make it fit...

    The wiper stalk is a big problem, the one on the BVM can't be changed to fit on the BVH
    Anyone that has got a spare wiper switch, I need one Please

    The hardes part so far was to remove the whole dash to remove the air vent on the right hand side just to remove the one bolt for the pivoting action of the handbrake unit... Now I have no excuse not to fit Shane's cooling padding (can't remember the proper name) haha. No better time than now!! Next will be to bare metal respray the engine compartment, my attempt to keep my car looking ok LOL

    Here is some pictures



    DIRTY Will look better soon though



    My friend kept the selector, piping and top part of the gearbox intackt to make positioning easier for me when I refit the gearbox and piping. The driveshaft studs on this gearbox is the long ones, fortunately I have the short ones. Why would the lengths differ? Short ones for the steel inner driveshaft couplings, and the long studs for the aluminium ones?



    Carburettor has been overhauled with new shafts etc. Just going to sodablast the intake manifold so it looks better, sometimes the gunk is next to impossible to remove.



    The centrifugal regulator is on it's way to overseas, awaiting an overhauled unit



    Got the other hydraulic resovoir, but the plastic transparent tube got damaged while transporting.... I will have to look for a replacement material.



    The selector box got new seals inside so it should be fine.



    Gearlever and one part of the steering column bracket.



    A quick change of the brackets on the flicker unit and it fits. (my mother shouldn't see this picture)



    The problematic switch.... the whole switch needs to be turned 180 degrees, then if you fit the bracket the auxillary light switch part pushed against the steering binnacle's bottom, a small protruding bracket welded onto the bottom seems to be in the way, I guess I will have to flatten the bracket and hope the unit fits.

    The flicker stalk is a lost cause. The whole unit is going to work wrong way round

    Next on the list is respraying the engine bay and mating the engine and gearbox. There is a stud in the bellhousing that the 3 finger clutch release bearing slides on, I first need to remove that, unnessecary now. Also have to drill new holes for the steering column bracket and ignition switch, which ofcourse fits on the opposite side of the steering wheel binnacle now.....


    I will keep you guys posted

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  20. #20
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Ahh Corne.
    Take the switch apart, turn everything around and there is your answer. This is the same with all the switches.
    With the wiper switch you will need to carefully bend the arm to match the angle required.
    Alternately buy a wiper switch from ANY left hand drive car.
    That's where all the switches originate, there were no special switches for the BVH right hand drive.itched dashes

    I switched dashes.

    The steering binnacle clam shells are different. The bottom one especially because the switches are in the opposite positions.
    Last edited by richo; 24th July 2012 at 09:26 PM.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Richo

    Ok I will give it a try, but I have got another unit, going to change that one first and let that one jump apart instead of this one before I attempt on this switch..

    Mmm bending the stalk? I can gurantee a break there haha, Will have a look overseas, much safer option, hopefully not an arm and a leg pricewise!

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    I've bought two from Europe and they were around the 40-50 euro mark.
    Current Cars
    Australia's 2016 C5 2.0HDi Last
    2011 C5 2.0HDi Comfort
    1973 Citroen D Super 5,
    1981 Citroen CX 2400 Pallas C-matic,
    1981 Citroen CX 2400ie Super Familiale C-matic - Raid Arctique 2014
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    1924 Citroen 'la petit citron'

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    I've bought two from Europe and they were around the 40-50 euro mark.

    That's a fair price. I had a look at various websites but none listed, I will e-mail a few and see if they have

    Thanks

    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  24. #24
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Corne, I bent my switch stalk and it is still the one I'm using on the car.

    Worth trying any of the used parts overseas, Jansen Garage in the Netherlands should be able to help.
    [email protected]

    Keep at it.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Richo

    Did you slightly heat the stalk or just bend it? I will try tonight when I get home, if that fail then I will give this guy a shout, thanks Richo

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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