Getting an ID back on the road.
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Getting an ID back on the road.

    Hi Froggies,

    What are some of the challenges of getting an ID back on the road.

    Trawling the pond now and weighing it all up.

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    Looking for general approaches first and more technical later. Anecdotes, successes and failures gladly listened to.

    Funny stories encouraged.

    Some recent resurrections are very inspiring i must say : )


    chris
    Restor-an-id

    alter ego-- Restor-a-16ts


    Last edited by Restor-an-Id; 2nd June 2012 at 11:09 PM.

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'd suggest, finding a good one and just driving it. There's the problem, ID's just like GS's have never been sought after. This means good ones are hard to find. Infact most left are either basket cases that need enormous work to get back on the road ................. Or a good cars that have bee restored or always looked after. These are obviously the ones to get.

    The best advice I can give it get someone to look at any cars your interested in that "knows" D's. DS/ID's hide there rust, it's very easy to hide a rusted out basket case with a shiny set of panels.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Default id

    cheers Shane,

    are you enjoying your ID?

    chris


  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Default

    this one might be worth a look.
    although it does say "needs restoration", sounds like it's a runner. you never know until you see it I guess.

    FOR SALE: 1966 ID 19 ~ Heidleberg Car

    CitroŽn 1966 ID19 Heidleberg car in fair condition, runs and lifts needs restoration.Unfortunately, health reasons stop me from restoring this car. Price $6,500. Chassis No 193018733. Phone Ken on 04 0938 7606 or email [email protected]
    [35/08]

  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    ThankS mberry,

    Your thread is inspiring by the way !!!!!!

  6. #6
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm really enjoying this renaissance of new ID owners coming through in the last year.

    Finding a 'good one' will be a challenge, but it's all a part of the fun.

    I wish you all the best in your pursuit(s).
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restor-an-Id View Post
    cheers Shane,

    are you enjoying your ID?

    chris

    Yep, I'm really enjoying tinkering with the old car. I dunno what happened, I was just going to stick a motor in it (given a couple of months) and start driving it..... That was 12months ago I'm enjoying slowing tinkering with it as I have time, I'm in no hurry to get it back together. The stuff you find on these early cars with little plastic is amazing... spring mounted switches.... Look at the way even the dash switches come up if you grab a bit of metal polish out. Just about every car after these early ID's has that fake "shiny coating on plastic" that flakes and falls off.....



    Check this out .... the early stuff is solid brass. See the two uncleaned switches. Even the charge light... The "shiny" highlight part is actually stamped out of brass sheet and pressed into the top of the switches



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Getting an ID back on the road.-idswitches.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Default

    Nicely designed eh?

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Do I scrap it

    A good time to bring this up. I picked up two 1960 ID's last year out of a paddock. The Heidelberg ID is definitely restorable with only some rust in the front floor. I would have wrecked the French ID immediately 15 years ago, but now as they are "so thin on the ground" I'm reluctant to do this. It has a fair bit of rust but I believe it is repairable. The box (for want of a better word) section isn't too bad except for the section at the rear driver's side which needs extensive repair. I could use it as a parts car, but really we don't need it for this purpose, as we have enough mechanicals and panels to restore both of these cars. I am keen to restore the Heidelberg car, and a 1963 ID Safari that Tim Cottrell sold me doesn't need a huge amount of work to put it on the road. I saved a '23 DS 5 speed Safari that needs extensive work. I've been able to round up all the "missing bits" for this car. This car was advertised in a Citroen magazine for some time before I bought it "just in time". It made me realise that the majority of Citroen enthusiasts don't have the
    amount of enthusiasm that I have to save these cars for future generations. WHAT AM I TO DO? Shane has shown, how rewarding these cars are as a restoration project and he points out that one should try to find a rust free car. I now need the room to make a good space to work in so I have to make some difficult decisions. I'm over 60 now so I can't do them all. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST? Michael

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    A good time to bring this up. I picked up two 1960 ID's last year out of a paddock. The Heidelberg ID is definitely restorable with only some rust in the front floor. I would have wrecked the French ID immediately 15 years ago, but now as they are "so thin on the ground" I'm reluctant to do this. It has a fair bit of rust but I believe it is repairable. The box (for want of a better word) section isn't too bad except for the section at the rear driver's side which needs extensive repair. I could use it as a parts car, but really we don't need it for this purpose, as we have enough mechanicals and panels to restore both of these cars. I am keen to restore the Heidelberg car, and a 1963 ID Safari that Tim Cottrell sold me doesn't need a huge amount of work to put it on the road. I saved a '23 DS 5 speed Safari that needs extensive work. I've been able to round up all the "missing bits" for this car. This car was advertised in a Citroen magazine for some time before I bought it "just in time". It made me realise that the majority of Citroen enthusiasts don't have the
    amount of enthusiasm that I have to save these cars for future generations. WHAT AM I TO DO? Shane has shown, how rewarding these cars are as a restoration project and he points out that one should try to find a rust free car. I now need the room to make a good space to work in so I have to make some difficult decisions. I'm over 60 now so I can't do them all. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST? Michael
    If anyone shows interest in restoring them ..... donate the cars to them ( if you can afford too, there value will be likely in scrap metal sadly ). Or strip the parts and dump the rusted stuff. you see no matter how rare they get, I feel it's highly unlikely the value of a very rusty car will be enough to make restoration worthwhile. If it for examples requires $5000 worth of rust repair to the hull (no this isn't an exageration if it needs floors, boot walls, boot floor, box sections, front clip, Cpillars and roof rail ... ie: your average rusted out ID).... then another $10,000 on the body, then another $3000 on the interior (ignoring the mechanicals) ... Well your definatley far better off buying one that's already decent and as rust free as possible.



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    hi IdEA,

    Defininitly advertise the worst of it through any free medium you can find. Spread the word.

    Some people are always looking for bits and pieces and as shane implies, gifting can be rewarding too.

    The generosity of some older owners has no doubt helped vehicles of many a marque continue and flourish into the future.

    I'd encourage the restoration/renovation of the Heidelberg car, and perhaps the 1963 ID Safari and disperse the rest ( if it doesn't owe you much, if anything).

    thats just my opinion. I work in the antique trade and have seen many restoration project kick on with a simple gift or a word of encouragement or investment in a helping hand.

    Time and tide...

    the other issue for me as a younger person is thinking that the number of experienced technicians for this type of car is slipping away, and transporting a vehicle can be expensive before any man hrs are added in the worshops.

    just loving id ds cits

    chris

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger
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    An ID is not a particularly complex car to work on and parts are readily available, so I wouldn''t worry about the support aspect. It's even easier now than it was only 2 or 3 years ago given the number of online suppliers and the steadily increasing range of parts on offer. I'll probably open a running wound again, but the main issue apart from rust and paddock sunburn would be the red fluid (LHS/LHS2) hydraulics. If the car is used fairly often, it may be fine, but a red fluid car left in a paddock for years will be a lot more involved to recommission than an identical green fluid (LHM) car. You can be surprised and find red fluid parts from a paddock wreck in good order once you dismantle them. I've found that with a couple of suspensions cylinders, but other parts like wheel cylinders from the same wreck were rusted solid.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Some of the ID's and DS's that gets restored in Europe is far, far worse compared to some of the cars we see as scrap and they get pepaired/restored, I think the right amount of "I want one" and stupidity is enough for some to restore a rusted past repair DS, and pricewise to restore the car I get the feeling that more and more people (especially in Europe) will go to great lengths to restore a rusted out DS/ID

    Maby instead of just scrapping the car one should look for a potential buyer overseas?

    It's just an idea, talking about myself if I feel that a specific car is too much money and work to repair then possibly for someone else it can be a golden opportunity to restore their dream car, and the value of Ds's are increasing, slowly but surely.

    If you restore a car, obviously, you have to think of the amount of money you are spending on the car to make it worthwhile or even possible, but does that proud feeling of thinking what you started with and what you ended up with not give you any sense of satisfaction? I believe that the line between fixing a car for resale/money and for pure enjoyment and satisfaction lies somewhere around there. In the end we all know that if you start restoring a car of your dreams, you en up spending much more than planned and many times you do even more preventative rust maintenance which mounts up to the same amount of money and sometimes more time than someone with a rusted out D would have spent.....

    You can argue this situation both ways, this is just my

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger
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    It's a case of starting with the 'right car' to begin with, both to minimise the effort and to maximise the final value (in case you must sell). You can make your life very much easier by spending several thousand more and getting a relatively rust free and unmolested car as the basis. That may not be the prettiest car to look at. You will very quickly spend the difference on small parts and then wonder where the money went as you will probably not quickly see the improvement.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default the french ID

    Thanks for the feedback. It seems to be about the money these days, probably because enthusiasts don't have the skills or the time to embark on a restoration themselves so it requires the funds to pay other people to do the job. I can see that. Up in Queensland I have an identical car which really is a rust bucket eg. sills completely rusted out, boot and floors. I remember thinking how wonderful a French ID would be, but that car would never be a goer. It's probably true that the cars over in the UK are alot worse than this car and they'd kill to get hold of this one. Even the boot is in good shape with only some rust near the boot lock. Yes, it does have some rust in the top of the boot below the rear window. If I was on a bit of acreage I'd put it under cover and not have to make the decision to kill it off. It's good to get feedback from the younger enthusiasts as they are the people that would get the benefit from the decisions that we older ones, make. Michael

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger
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    Even with a quite solid car to begin with, it's still easy to go backwards, so it's rarely a real money making exercise. The problem for many marginal cars is that there are currently still prospects in better condition for not a lot more. Unless a real enthusiast wants to take such cars on without great regard for the time and cost involved, it's likely to be overlooked in favour of a better example. Until people have fewer choices available to them as project cars, the marginal cars will continue to be overlooked or scrapped. I might add I'm sometimes a sucker for the lost dogs despite the irrational acts of working on otherwise near worthless cars!

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    Default Factors

    Your right fellas, there are so many variables!

    It is a commitment; it is a somewhat irrational leap.

    But how outrageously cool are they ?

    C
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Getting an ID back on the road.-citroen.jpg  
    Last edited by Restor-an-Id; 2nd June 2012 at 06:57 PM.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger
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    They are very unusual in some respects, yet entirely ordinary and underwhelming in others. I've always found it hard to see why anyone would have bought a new DS in the mid-1970's when they could have had a much more capable Jaguar, BMW or Mercedes saloon for similar money. In 1970, as a daily driver choice, an XJ Jaguar or S-class Benz was way ahead of the 15 year old DS design in many areas. Obviously, people justified it, but I couldn't have given the choice. However, compare the DS/ID series with an FJ or EK Holden or similar Ford etc. and it's a rather different story. You have to appreciate them for what they are and not expect them to be what they are not! In that 20 year run with the same basic shape, there is a lot of variation and some are better than others. It's no different to a carpark full of Citroen C5's or C4's or any other car really - some you'd be happy to own, others you'd rather not.
    Last edited by David S; 2nd June 2012 at 07:29 PM.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Default Rust inhibitor

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    If anyone shows interest in restoring them ..... donate the cars to them ( if you can afford too, there value will be likely in scrap metal sadly ). Or strip the parts and dump the rusted stuff. you see no matter how rare they get, I feel it's highly unlikely the value of a very rusty car will be enough to make restoration worthwhile. If it for examples requires $5000 worth of rust repair to the hull (no this isn't an exageration if it needs floors, boot walls, boot floor, box sections, front clip, Cpillars and roof rail ... ie: your average rusted out ID).... then another $10,000 on the body, then another $3000 on the interior (ignoring the mechanicals) ... Well your definatley far better off buying one that's already decent and as rust free as possible.



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    It is worth inhibiting the rusty ones to stop them rusting any further, even if they're not currently economical propositions.

    1) Mix deodorised fish oil and linseed oil 50 / 50.

    2) Dilute the mixture 50 /50 with mineral turpentine.

    3) Using a cheap hand sprayer from the garden section of the supermarket or a 'spray & wipe' bottle which is empty, spary the mixture into all the rusty areas. The mist will coat surfaces inside box sections etc. and it will displace the water out of the rust, stopping it from progressing.

    Generally it is worth pulling carpets out drying if required and stowing them so the floors are bare, especially in Ds and 404 pugs which leak.

    For a few dollars one thus staves off extinction and possibly the car will live again either bit at a time or because it becomes viable to restore it.

    We can't save them all...

    Bruce.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
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    - - and they are fun to be in for young and old - - and do the Brisbane Warwick trip and back (200 odd miles) more comfortably- - and lots more fun - - than a new one.

    In my opinion, John.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Getting an ID back on the road.-67ds-june-2012-2.jpg   Getting an ID back on the road.-67ds-june-2012-3.jpg   Getting an ID back on the road.-67ds-june-2012-5.jpg   Getting an ID back on the road.-67ds-june-2012-6.jpg   Getting an ID back on the road.-67ds-june-2012-7.jpg  
    Last edited by gilberthenry; 4th June 2012 at 02:06 PM. Reason: miles

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    I am too trying to repair( not full restoration) since the Beginning of this year. Car is very simple to work on but there are many difficulties. They are so far:

    • Parts are very hard to find. Some parts are available from Germany and U.K.
    • Need a lot of research. Even some hose part are different from other car= hard to know which hose goes with which liquid.
    • Hard to find people who knows about car inside out who has time for you.
    • Need big garage if you want to remove motor and paint chassis.
    • Hard to remove component from car. Sometimes I need to go under the car. I had trouble just removing starter motor and suspension spheres(too tight!)
    • Time consuming.
    • Not so many classic Citroen garage left for RWC inspections



    But yes it is best to buy the car which is in good condition like one Shane is restoring now.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default You are making headway

    Firstly Kaz, You did the right thing joining Aussie Frogs and I'm pleased you bought an ID. Yes, I'm guilty for not being able to spend more time with you to familiarise you with these complex cars. A lot of knowledge is built up over the years, and it must be frustrating at times for you not having the background to solve problems quickly. But you have been helped along the way by fellow enthusiasts on this forum. It can also be beneficial to be a member of a car club eg. Citroen Classic Owners Club of Australia, as this puts you in touch with people that you can meet and help you. You are doing well, asking the questions and the responses have been good. an example ---- What oil do I use? Doing the actual work is difficult and I'm certainly not a brilliant mechanic myself, but I enjoy doing the work myself eg. solving the "blown sparkplug". Having the tools,time and space, is a problem but you are getting there, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that admires you for taking on the challenge of putting one of these cars on the road. There is alot of knowledge in this forum on the subject of sourcing parts. I have another trip to Queensland to bring back a vehicle. We do have some parts there, but the "consumables" eg, hoses, hydraulic boots and height corrector rubbers have to be bought new. Give us a list of any specific parts that you need and I'll try to help. I must set aside some time after July to see you to help you with some "hands on" assistance. Michael

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