DS disc brake info
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default DS disc brake info

    Hi legends,

    Does anyone know where I can find a similar tech drawing of a DS disc brake?
    Similar to this: Citroen 2cv, Brembo

    I have found this info on a Romanian site:
    Type Disc Brakes: full
    diameter: 300 mm
    height: 55 mm
    Thickness of brake disc: 12 mm
    Number of holes: 6
    Centering Diameter: 108 mm

    Cheers,

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    Harley

  2. #2
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastinha View Post
    Hi legends,

    Does anyone know where I can find a similar tech drawing of a DS disc brake?
    Similar to this: Citroen 2cv, Brembo

    I have found this info on a Romanian site:
    Type Disc Brakes: full
    diameter: 300 mm
    height: 55 mm
    Thickness of brake disc: 12 mm
    Number of holes: 6
    Centering Diameter: 108 mm

    Cheers,

    Harley
    I'll have a look see if I have the relevant info for you, and you may want to shoot a PM towards Steve (Citroenfan), he may be able to help too. I #think# they're the same or very simular to an SM disc. You may also want to check with CitroWorld- I think they stock discs for the D.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  3. #3
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Here is some of what you needed, from the 814-1 manual:

    I. PARTICULAR FEATURES .
    1. Discs :
    - Maximum run out : .................................................. ............................................... 0,15 mm
    - Diameter : .................................................. .................................................. ........... 300 mm
    - Original thickness : .................................................. .............................................. 12 Ī 0,1 mm
    - Minimum thickness after grinding (0,5 mm max. each side) : .............................. 11 Ī 0.1 mm
    - Maximum variation of thickness at outer edge :................................................. .... 0,015 mm maxi
    - Maximum out of flat at outer edge :................................................. ...................... 0 to 0.025 mm approximately


    The parts books show a pic, but not an engineering drawing. I do know that the attaching bolt holes are in groups of 2 around the center, rather than 6 evenly spaced holes, and the hat section this is all in is very different.

    I'd copy the graphic out of the #604 parts book for you , but I can't seem to get it up.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Apparently you can let them "go" longer than the suggested 11mm minimum thickness though



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Here is some of what you needed, from the 814-1 manual:

    I. PARTICULAR FEATURES .
    1. Discs :
    - Maximum run out : .................................................. ............................................... 0,15 mm
    - Diameter : .................................................. .................................................. ........... 300 mm
    - Original thickness : .................................................. .............................................. 12 Ī 0,1 mm
    - Minimum thickness after grinding (0,5 mm max. each side) : .............................. 11 Ī 0.1 mm
    - Maximum variation of thickness at outer edge :................................................. .... 0,015 mm maxi
    - Maximum out of flat at outer edge :................................................. ...................... 0 to 0.025 mm approximately


    The parts books show a pic, but not an engineering drawing. I do know that the attaching bolt holes are in groups of 2 around the center, rather than 6 evenly spaced holes, and the hat section this is all in is very different.

    I'd copy the graphic out of the #604 parts book for you , but I can't seem to get it up.
    from the parts book
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS disc brake info-page_604-44_ds-files_tony-jackson_green-cd.jpg  

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    Harley,
    There's no diagram/engineering drawing I'm aware of.
    Borrow a disc from someone if you don't have a spare, even worn out (you know they should be 12mm thick) and measure it yourself.
    Then you'll be able to post your results here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I'll have a look see if I have the relevant info for you, and you may want to shoot a PM towards Steve (Citroenfan), he may be able to help too. I #think# they're the same or very simular to an SM disc. You may also want to check with CitroWorld- I think they stock discs for the D.
    The discs for the SM and post 66 D's are identical. AFAIK there are no 'engineering' drawings around. All the relevant info is in 814 as you listed. The really important thing, to keep in mind, is the fit between the back of the disc and the output shaft of the transmission. Have run across a few cars where the discs, when tested off the car, were prefect. Installed, however, they exhibited a definite wobble. Causes were either a slightly bent output shaft plate or a bit of crud on the output shaft plate.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Harley,
    There's no diagram/engineering drawing I'm aware of.
    Borrow a disc from someone if you don't have a spare, even worn out (you know they should be 12mm thick) and measure it yourself.
    Then you'll be able to post your results here.
    In my 40 Deeviate years, I don't recall seeing an engineering drawing either.

    After the measurements and details are posted, it would be interesting to see if Wilwood or Brembo, etc make an OTS part or disc and hat combination that would work. NOS D parts are probably getting dear to the point that the Hot Rod stuff might be a viable option. Discs are so much more widely proliferated now than in the DS' day.

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    So we finally get a look under the hood of Shane's daily driver ......

    Steve

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    So we finally get a look under the hood of Shane's daily driver ......

    Steve
    It's my fathers DS23. When I drove it home, it only had brakes on one front wheel. You could do a full blown crash stop with your hands off the steering wheel and it would track dead straight. The rotor is about 1mm thick at the outside edge and no longer connected to the driveshaft assembly where it bolts on (it had worn through). The other side wasn't far behind, at least it was still intact so we had some front brakes to drive it home. I'm going to hang the rotors on my wall next time I spot them.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    ..... I'm going to hang the rotors on my wall next time I spot them.

    seeya,
    Shane L.


    I've still got a pulled spare clutch pack spacer from a Mopar Torqueflite A-727 hanging from my wall. Leftover from the last time I rebuilt and modded one of those brutes in '99. It's also about 1mm thick, difference is, it's still serviceable.....

  12. #12
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    It's my fathers DS23. When I drove it home, it only had brakes on one front wheel. You could do a full blown crash stop with your hands off the steering wheel and it would track dead straight. The rotor is about 1mm thick at the outside edge and no longer connected to the driveshaft assembly where it bolts on (it had worn through). The other side wasn't far behind, at least it was still intact so we had some front brakes to drive it home. I'm going to hang the rotors on my wall next time I spot them.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Reminds me of a friend of mine in high school. He had told his older brother that he would take said brother's old boat of a Pontiac to auto shop and do the brake service. It had been squealing for quite a while, so it definitely needed the work. Friend calls me into the shop early the next morning to show me what he found- the front drums were worn completely through! Trying to pull them from the hubs, the left one actually broke around the entire circumference, separating the swept portion from the hub. Richard got very lucky- there was a new set of drums front and rear available in the next little town 12 miles away for not a lot of money. I think it was a total of 100 or so dollars (this was 1977), and we had new brakes- hydraulics, linings, bearings, seals, the lot- all the way around on that beast.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  13. #13
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    So we finally get a look under the hood of Shane's daily driver ......

    Steve
    Steve, trust me when I say this:

    Judge not, lest ye be judged.




    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiley_coyote View Post
    In my 40 Deeviate years, I don't recall seeing an engineering drawing either.

    After the measurements and details are posted, it would be interesting to see if Wilwood or Brembo, etc make an OTS part or disc and hat combination that would work. NOS D parts are probably getting dear to the point that the Hot Rod stuff might be a viable option. Discs are so much more widely proliferated now than in the DS' day.
    Thats the plan, but I'm looking for a vented alternative. I just need to figure out how to modify the calipers to suit...

    Harley

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastinha View Post
    Thats the plan, but I'm looking for a vented alternative. I just need to figure out how to modify the calipers to suit...

    Harley
    Harley, why?

    Stock brakes are good, excellent even. Replacements are cheap, very cheap.

    Any replacement would require the consideration of a different material for the brake pads, given the heat operating range. Never mind the caliper.

    Vented discs are not necessary.
    Citroen didn't find them necessary when racing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Harley, why?

    Stock brakes are good, excellent even. Replacements are cheap, very cheap.

    Any replacement would require the consideration of a different material for the brake pads, given the heat operating range. Never mind the caliper.

    Vented discs are not necessary.
    Citroen didn't find them necessary when racing.
    Agreed richo,

    The consideration is for the 200hp vtec engine.

    This will be dictated by the engineer, perhaps retro fitting rear discs will impress them enough...

    Harley

  17. #17
    UFO
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    DS brakes ARE vented when the under tray and ducting are fitted. Says he who has not had the ducts on his car since about 1999. But then I haven't upgraded the engine either.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    DS brakes ARE vented when the under tray and ducting are fitted. Says he who has not had the ducts on his car since about 1999. But then I haven't upgraded the engine either.
    Have you got the ducts?

    I would have thought the DS was more underpowered than under-braked in standard form in any case. With more power, you'll have to consider the likelihood of cracking where the engine/gearbox cross bar support meets the hull (welded these up on a 23) and also the H-frames. Apparently, even the main crossmember can crack, so you might ask someone like Denton about that aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Have you got the ducts?
    In fact I have two sets
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastinha View Post
    Agreed richo,

    The consideration is for the 200hp vtec engine.

    This will be dictated by the engineer, perhaps retro fitting rear discs will impress them enough...

    Harley
    If your engineer was impressed by fitting discs to the rear of a DS then he is not an engineer. I believe it would be utterly meaningless to upgrade the rear braking on a DS.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    If your engineer was impressed by fitting discs to the rear of a DS then he is not an engineer. I believe it would be utterly meaningless to upgrade the rear braking on a DS.
    mmmm, beg to differ!

    The SM has rear discs, and had 13 hp less, than the 200hp car Harley is planning to build.

    Moreover, If the H23A engine going in is lighter than the original motor, that will shift the center of gravity slightly to the rear, giving the rear brakes more to do.

    Would be interested in the engineers opinion on Kevlar pads all around.
    Last edited by wiley_coyote; 13th April 2012 at 01:21 AM. Reason: additional information

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Have you got the ducts?

    I would have thought the DS was more underpowered than under-braked in standard form in any case. With more power, you'll have to consider the likelihood of cracking where the engine/gearbox cross bar support meets the hull (welded these up on a 23) and also the H-frames. Apparently, even the main crossmember can crack, so you might ask someone like Denton about that aspect.
    Indeed! The crossbar mount area might need beefing up to take the extra torque.

  23. #23
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiley_coyote View Post
    mmmm, beg to differ!

    The SM has rear discs, and had 13 hp less, than the 200hp car Harley is planning to build.

    Moreover, If the H23A engine going in is lighter than the original motor, that will shift the center of gravity slightly to the rear, giving the rear brakes more to do.

    Would be interested in the engineers opinion on Kevlar pads all around.
    The GS- as underpowered as a car could be and still move reasonably- had 4-wheel discs, too. It was probably a shift in design philosophy, and it was cheaper to do that on the SM and the GS, rather than bother to do it on a car that didn't really need it in the first place. The D had brakes that were very well proven by then, and the core market wasn't demanding a change, so why bother?

    I don't think the shift in CoG will be a big problem, it may mean changing out the linings every 60,000 miles, instead of every 65,000. Thought: if you really do need to change to rear discs, how difficult would it be to change over to an SM rear arm? If it could be done relatively easily, that would save a hell of a lot of machining.


    I'm definitely no engineer, but kevlar pads are an interesting choice. Expensive in a custom application, though. Unless overheating is a problem, that's some well-engineered overkill.


    By the way, how did you manage to get the parts page to show? I tried all manner of ways to get that to show. More to the point, I could not turn it into a thumbnail from Acrobat.


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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Apparently you can let them "go" longer than the suggested 11mm minimum thickness though
    Sure you can.
    I have seen them shatter, break the bellhousing, damage the parking brakes, and throw shrapnel out the bonnet.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    The GS- as underpowered as a car could be and still move reasonably- had 4-wheel discs, too. It was probably a shift in design philosophy, and it was cheaper to do that on the SM and the GS, rather than bother to do it on a car that didn't really need it in the first place. The D had brakes that were very well proven by then, and the core market wasn't demanding a change, so why bother?

    I don't think the shift in CoG will be a big problem, it may mean changing out the linings every 60,000 miles, instead of every 65,000. Thought: if you really do need to change to rear discs, how difficult would it be to change over to an SM rear arm? If it could be done relatively easily, that would save a hell of a lot of machining.


    I'm definitely no engineer, but kevlar pads are an interesting choice. Expensive in a custom application, though. Unless overheating is a problem, that's some well-engineered overkill.


    By the way, how did you manage to get the parts page to show? I tried all manner of ways to get that to show. More to the point, I could not turn it into a thumbnail from Acrobat.


    Agreed, swapping to SM arms is probably the cheapest way to go for rear discs.

    HOW TO EXTRACT PAGES FROM A PDF FILE AND SAVE THEM AS JPG IMAGES

    I used two pieces of software to produce the pic from the parts page:

    Adobe Acrobat Pro Extended version 9.0 ($ware), and

    The GIMP, Windows version (freeware from the Linux world, a very capable, long established and proven, free alternative to Photoshop and other graphics editing software)

    Part I. Extract the desired page from the pdf file


    1. Opened up the parts manual .pdf file from the tony jackson "green disc" in Acrobat Pro.

    2. Viewing the left-hand column in Acrobat, I switch to "Pages" view. This shows thumbnails of the pages you are viewing. Sometimes it doesn't scroll as you're reading, though.

    3. I search the file for the page with the picture of the disc brake.

    4. I navigate through the thumbnails until i locate the corresponding thumbnail to the page I need.

    5. I right-click on the single page thumbnail. A dialog box appears over the thumbnail with options:

    6. I left-click on "Extract pages"

    7. Another dialog box appears with the page range of the selected page. I click "OK"

    8. Acrobat Pro now opens up the selected file as a new, single page pdf document in a new, separate window.

    9. I click "Save", then rename the document and save it to a new location.

    10. I'm finished in Acrobat Pro.

    Part II. Convert the pdf page to a jpg image file

    11. I open The GIMP

    12. Select "File", then "Open".

    13. A dialog box appears to select the file to be open (pretty standard). I navigate to the file I just made in Acrobat Pro.

    14. A dialog box appears showing me a thumbnail of the file.

    15. I click on the thumbnail of the file, which then highlights it.

    16. I select "Import" in the dialog box.

    17. The page now opens as an image in The GIMP.

    18. Without doing any editing, I select "Save As".

    19. A "Save As" dialog appears with the file name at the top bar.

    20. I delete any file extensions from the name.

    21. I then go to format dropdown at the lower right of this box and select "Jpeg"

    22. Save the file

    23. It now opens up as a .jpg file. conversion is finished.

    24. I go to the forum to reply to the post.

    25. Upload the file in the usual way. Happily, the jpg i created is within size limits, and it appears as a thumbnail in my post. Note: I did nothing to create a thumbnail, the Forum server did that automatically since it saw a jpg.

    It all sounds more complicated than it really is. Pretty simple after you do it a few times.

    Okay, there is probably freeware out there that can extract single pages from a .pdf. Not going to deal with that here because I use Acrobat Pro on a daily basis and am not really too familiar with other pdf software.

    Since Acrobat 10 was released, there are probably some bargains to be had with Acrobat 9, which has been doing an excellent job for me. I picked mine up for $78 earlier this year.

    The usual caveats apply: make sure your machine matches the requirements of the Acrobat Pro you're looking to buy (it comes in separate Windows and Mac Versions).

    Make sure you're buying the appropriate version, "Full" or "Upgrade". The Upgrade version will look for a previously installed Acrobat Pro, NOT just Acrobat Reader. Upgrade version is not supposed to install by itself.
    Last edited by wiley_coyote; 13th April 2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: clarification

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