DS 23 Head and other questions
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Default DS 23 Head and other questions

    Sad to say I think I need to lift the head of my '73 DS carburettor engine These is a mysterious loss of coolant (but no water in the oil) plus what feels like a hydraulic lock sometimes when I try to start. I already suspected that I have worn valve guides with occasional clouds of smoke when starting.

    One complication is that I don't know if it is a 21 or 23 motor as it has an early "DX" 21 block but I don't know the piston/liner size. I suspect that the water leak probably indicates severe corrosion as the car was sitting idle for ten years before my ownership.

    I have been offered a D Special head in seemingly good condition. Will it fit? If not does anyone else out there have a suitable head to sell? I would like to get one reconditioned before I do the strip down if possible.

    Can anyone recommend a suitable head specialist to do this work, preferably in Sydney?

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    The other question is in regards to fan shrouds. My car is fitted with the later cross flow radiator and header tank, plus auxiliary electric fan, but an archaic looking aluminium fan shroud. I suspect this is off an earlier model as I think in '73 there should be a plastic item. Can anyone identify what I have? Does any one have a later shroud to sell as I think they were a deeper shape and maybe more efficient?

    Thanks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS 23 Head and other questions-shroud-1.jpg   DS 23 Head and other questions-shroud-2.jpg  
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    Sad to say I think I need to lift the head of my '73 DS carburettor engine These is a mysterious loss of coolant (but no water in the oil) plus what feels like a hydraulic lock sometimes when I try to start. I already suspected that I have worn valve guides with occasional clouds of smoke when starting.
    Condensate from the exhaust pipe is common. Most Ds exhibit this trait when cold.
    Have you performed with a compression or cylinder leak down test?
    If the coolant is not in the oil ( checked by loosening the drain plug, if water emerges first, then you have a leak!), then check the coolant for combustion gases, this is possible in severe cases by the presence of bubbles in the coolant when the cap (in your case on the expansion tank) or by a pressure test of the coolant and the presence of coolant in a cylinder when the plug has been removed.

    One complication is that I don't know if it is a 21 or 23 motor as it has an early "DX" 21 block but I don't know the piston/liner size. I suspect that the water leak probably indicates severe corrosion as the car was sitting idle for ten years before my ownership.
    "23" engine is a block change, with a bore change. Still a DX prefix marked on the block. Not as I earlier had written.

    I have been offered a D Special head in seemingly good condition. Will it fit? If not does anyone else out there have a suitable head to sell? I would like to get one reconditioned before I do the strip down if possible.
    Yes it will work, however it would be best to have the cylinder head combustion chamber equator flycut to match the head gasket.

    Can anyone recommend a suitable head specialist to do this work, preferably in Sydney?
    Sorry Michael, I live a tad further south.

    The other question is in regards to fan shrouds. My car is fitted with the later cross flow radiator and header tank, plus auxiliary electric fan, but an archaic looking aluminium fan shroud. I suspect this is off an earlier model as I think in '73 there should be a plastic item. Can anyone identify what I have? Does any one have a later shroud to sell as I think they were a deeper shape and maybe more efficient?
    You probably 'ave the correct fan shroud, you would need to check a parts book.
    Pleased to swap it with you for a plastic one which is in perfect condition.
    I'd like a metal one for FrankenD.
    Efficiency as far as I can tell from experience is the same.

    Thanks.[/QUOTE]

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by richo; 11th March 2012 at 09:58 PM. Reason: brain fart on engine capacity

  3. #3
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    "23" engine is a stroke change, not a bore change.
    I thought 20, 21 and 23 engines all had the same stroke.

    Roger

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    Fellow Frogger! XM Mechanic's Avatar
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    I can recommend L W Parry engineering at Arncliffe. I was happy with the work thy did on the XM heads.
    http://www.lwparry.com.au/
    Regards,

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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Oops, brain fart on my part.
    23 linings don't fit the 21s.
    Ah OK, so since the 5 bearing DS engines are all 85.5mm stroke then the bores for the 19/21/23 are 86mm, 90mm and 93.5mm respectively.

    But you say that the 23 liners will not fit the DS21 block Roger? In that case my DS23 must have 2175cc capacity as the block is a "DX" (no suffix).

    So, I suppose now my questions are:

    1. Will the D Special (1985cc) head fit my DS21 motor, or will the compression be too high?

    2. I am assuming the head gasket is specific to the 21 motor for the 90mm bore. You are suggesting machining the 86mm cyl head to fit the 90mm bore to remove the step?

    3. Would I be better to track down a DS21 head? The manual and parts list suggest that all three motors have the same valve sizes.


    Of course it is possible that the present head will be OK but having looked at the other head I realise that the corrosion must be quite severe to allow leakage from the water jacket to the cylinder.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  6. #6
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    Ah OK, so since the 5 bearing DS engines are all 85.5mm stroke then the bores for the 19/21/23 are 86mm, 90mm and 93.5mm respectively.

    But you say that the 23 liners will not fit the DS21 block Roger? In that case my DS23 must have 2175cc capacity as the block is a "DX" (no suffix).

    So, I suppose now my questions are:

    1. Will the D Special (1985cc) head fit my DS21 motor, or will the compression be too high?

    2. I am assuming the head gasket is specific to the 21 motor for the 90mm bore. You are suggesting machining the 86mm cyl head to fit the 90mm bore to remove the step?

    3. Would I be better to track down a DS21 head? The manual and parts list suggest that all three motors have the same valve sizes.


    Of course it is possible that the present head will be OK but having looked at the other head I realise that the corrosion must be quite severe to allow leakage from the water jacket to the cylinder.
    Michael,
    It is I who is suggesting the liners from a 23 do not fit a 21 because of the difference in the block.

    1. Answered in the initial reply. yes.
    2. Yes.
    3. No.

    You have not advised that you have found the source of your coolant loss. Respectfully, the diagnostic procedures I suggested will allow you to pinpoint the source of your coolant leak.

    Hope this helps.

  7. #7
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XM Mechanic View Post
    I can recommend L W Parry engineering at Arncliffe. I was happy with the work thy did on the XM heads.
    http://www.lwparry.com.au/
    If LW Parry is still in the same hands as 25 years ago, I would second the recommendation.
    I used them for cylinder head repairs and reconditioning many years ago.

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Shouldn't you find what the issue is first It's possible liner seal will be leaking even

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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    DS 23 engines have a tendency to need replacement of the paper gaskets at the bottom of the cylinder liners....as Shane suggests. If that is the case, it is possible to remove and replace the cylinder liners with the engine in situ..ie head off and all work done "top down". I had that done on my 23 years ago...it was a shame to disturb any of it as the hone marks could still be seen in the bores. I believe it is a 23 "specialty" that was never evident in the 21 or smaller motors....probably another heat related issue. At the time, Peugeot 504s also were prone to that source of failure in the 2 litre versions, a fault that was unheard of in the 1800 engines. ... the basic architecture/materials of the two engine designs are similar.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Ah, sorry Richo... looks like I had a brain fade there too! Thanks for the advice.

    Since there is no water in the sump it rules out the seals at the bottom of the liners and in any case we have established that this is not the trouble prone 23 as the bigger liners will not fit the 21 block. It must have had an engine transplant in the past. On the other hand maybe the seals should be replaced anyway while I am in there.

    I know about the common exhaust condensation feature but I definitely have an internal coolant leak... appreciable quantities going missing but none dripping below. I need have the head off to do something about the valve guide problem anyway as the occasional cloud of smoke is embarrassing... especially at Citroen Car Club meetings!
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger
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    Michael, pull the plugs and turn it over when cold. See what comes out of the plug holes as an easy test. If you think it's goinf to be a lot, then some rags would be a good idea!

    A corroded inlet manifold or failed gasket perhaps?
    Sure it's not just the radiator overflow?

    Parry's are very good to deal with and well equipped to work on both the most modern and most ancient engines you could find. You might also consider Fairfield Cylinder Heads (near enough) run by a couple of Cambodian mechanics who used to work on DS/GS/CX etc. at Continental Cars many years ago. I'll find the contact info if need be.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Could be as simple as worn hoses or clamps or water pump surely? There must be some sign of it spraying around?
    Steven

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    I have seen DS cars lose coolant from the slightest leak in the radiator core, and even from the water pump manifold seal to the head. The other thing I have commonly seen is a crack in the bottom of the radiator expansion tank. Lots of them. I would check this first.

    I would compression test the motor, and then pressure test the cooling system. The cooling system pressure test will prove you are losing coolant for sure and hopefully allow you to see where.

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