What Citroen should have done with the DS3
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    Fellow Frogger! Stuart Dammery's Avatar
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    Default What Citroen should have done with the DS3

    http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/e...308-1ul5w.html

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    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    Why?
    The DS3 isn't trying to be a re-created DS or any other earlier model, it is blatantly stated to be "anti-retro". Vague retro was tried with the first C3, the first C4 and the C6. Been there, done that, and now it is time for something-else.
    If anything could be meant to look like a re-created DS it should be a DS5.
    If you're going to compare a DS3 with an earlier model maybe you should be thinking Bijou or an Ami, but I doubt anyone would
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    Default Ds3

    Bruce,

    Whoever named that thing needs some education. Just the name and suggestion of DS is utterly ridiculous. How the hell Citroen could put out such a car with a name derived from one of the greats in automotive history with a run of the mill hatch is beyond comprehension.

    Obviously there is no sequel. Same for 2cv and other classics.

    Why not call it the Monet or another French artist? DS3 - they could have done better.

    Yep, the comparisons to those cars is about right.

    That link to first post seems to point to an e type Jag.

    Seems like Citroen ain't in to retro

    Chris M

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    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder if it isn't a good thing that Citroen isn't into retro. If they produced a truly spectacularly or even just well engineered nouvelleDS, how many people would still be chasing those delightfully restored/kept D's out there, and how many average D's would now be getting crushed?

    Fess up, if you could get a nouvelleDS with much better fuel consumption than a D, much more effective cooling, and NVH/ a motor as quiet as the DS3's (but preferably without the wind buffeting that the DS3 suffers if windows are down), and we'd also hope suspension technology to match, with a body style that still had the allure of a D, would you even contemplate ever buying an old D? The home-mechanics might still want the project they can spend time with, those with some nostalgic links to one might want a D, but the majority of the marketplace I feel certainly wouldn't be paying the 20% or more of new car price that good D's can command. Would we be ready to see the "icon" become simply seen as "dated"?
    Bruce H

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    Fellow Frogger! Stuart Dammery's Avatar
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    What I'm saying is I would have liked a modern take on a classic design. Jag have outdone themselves in this area. In some ways when I see a C6 I am reminded of the CX, especially the pockets inside the door...but I would have loved some more retro styling.
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Dammery View Post
    What I'm saying is I would have liked a modern take on a classic design. Jag have outdone themselves in this area. In some ways when I see a C6 I am reminded of the CX, especially the pockets inside the door...but I would have loved some more retro styling.
    But the car you linked to is not a Jaguar! The Lyonheart K is a small production vehicle with styling reminiscent of the E Type.

    Jaguar have learnt that their previous policy of building "retro" look cars did not work and they are now doing much better by updating their look and image. Most other manufacturers also found that retro models were at best a niche market and so cars like the New Beetle and Mini are moving away from the concept.
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    Fellow Frogger! Stuart Dammery's Avatar
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    Michael, yes, you're 100% right...but you know what I mean
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    Default DS Badging

    The original DS was a leader in all things ,style,technology,innovation,etc. something the current owners of PSA could never contemplate doing. So why would you not use a designation that would make the world believe this vehicle also is going to be a world leading icon. Now that PSA owns the rights to the DS badge they needed something to move sales in world that is becoming more cluttered with new cars brands every day. Is it right I don't think so, is it a good marketing move using DS time will tell. Me I will never buy another PSA car, another real Citroen possibly.(yes)

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    A reincarnation of a DS would have to have new technology and some would argue that new technology, while being somewhat more efficient, has lost some qualities that only classic car owners can appreciate.

    By tacking on the DS name to get some kind of superficial feel or if to borrow that model's success and then make undesirable any retro influence is confusing to me....especially as I love retro and am if anything suspicious of the true qualities of the slick glossy plastic, brushed aluminium ijunk they are successfully pushing.

    The DS was and is a very special thing in it's own right and those qualities such as the supple long travel suspension and baggy tires, the button on floor high pressure braking, column shift transmission, and mechanically operated and effective lighting system will no doubt be lost to latest technology. These things were lost with the CX and one day there may not be any model with Hydropneumatic!

    In terms of the massive differences in what a new retro DS would offer compared to the original I would imagine the original DS would continue to have a strong following, maybe even stronger. The problem would be selling the new DS and perhaps that is why Citroen isn't doing it. Look at the C6, an excellent car but isn't really selling in great numbers is it!

    -Andy

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    DS
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    Does anyone that buys a DS3 know of the existence of a DS19?

    I love that Citroen are anti retro. Look at the new Mini. How do you update a retro design? Adding even uglier models to the range hasn't helped. The new Countryman is a truly dumb looking "retro" machine.
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    The only retro design that comes anywhere near close to capturing the panache of the original in my eyes is the reintroduction of the Fiat 500. I reckon that it looks brilliant.
    Cheers Gerry

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    The only retro design that comes anywhere near close to capturing the panache of the original in my eyes is the reintroduction of the Fiat 500. I reckon that it looks brilliant.
    Cheers Gerry
    Particularly a red Abarth one. They have captured the spirit of the design, the same as the modern Mini.

    I don't think the C6 captures much from a CX, in fact I think that they lost the opportunity to incorporate some unique CX bits.

    I would have incorporated the "trigger" for opening the doors forward of the door handle. Still the best single handed way of opening a car on a dark night by someone who has never been in a CX (grab the handle, pull the trigger). Another CX outstanding feature was the single wiper. Another was the golf ball ashtray. Another was the way the headrest squab could be unclipped and inverted, to give a superb pillow for a sleeping passenger (filling in the curve between the head and the shoulder to support the neck). Another was the backlit speedo and tacho drums, visible in all lighting conditions, giving just the answer, not the whole menu. And of course the single spoke Diravi steering with 2 1/2 turns lock to lock.

    Retro is just a body that evokes memories of the original. Often the subtle features that endear you to the original are not found in the retro version, the heart and soul has been lost.

    The Citroen DS range of new cars bears absolutely no resemblance to the original DS. No style, no hydraulics, no magic carpet ride, no stand out from the crowd looks. The original didn't even have chevrons or Citroen plastered on the body....it didn't need to state the obvious. The new range does have chevrons and Citroen on the body to remind people that it isn't a Peugeot/Toyota/Hyundia/Great Wall/Roof/Floor.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by DS View Post
    Does anyone that buys a DS3 know of the existence of a DS19?
    Yes.

    Refer SLC206
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    Default amen to that !

    Quote Originally Posted by DS View Post
    Does anyone that buys a DS3 know of the existence of a DS19?

    I love that Citroen are anti retro. Look at the new Mini. How do you update a retro design? Adding even uglier models to the range hasn't helped. The new Countryman is a truly dumb looking "retro" machine.
    agree 100% how much uglier can it get. at which time will it be called a mini-maxi ?

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    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by DS View Post
    Does anyone that buys a DS3 know of the existence of a DS19?

    I love that Citroen are anti retro. Look at the new Mini. How do you update a retro design? Adding even uglier models to the range hasn't helped. The new Countryman is a truly dumb looking "retro" machine.
    We did, I reckon Bruce H has a fair idea too.

    I briefly drove a DS4 the other day. Lots of fun!
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The DS3 has no connection with low volume, gross footprint sports cars. It is a volume product aimed at the market segment created by the BMW Mini - a customised fashion statement for city dwellers with perceived value way ahead of its production cost. PSA needs margin in its small cars to survive and this market strategy is working.
    It owes nothing to the DS as it is designed for a market segment that never existed in its day. Using the DS name seems have been a smart move. As a French icon the DS is not far behind the Eiffel Tower in recognition. I doubt that in France there would be many people unaware of the DS and indeed amog the over forties, the H van - whose styling cues may well appear in their next utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Dammery View Post
    G'day,
    When did the E type ever have a V6 engine?
    regards,
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    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug206gti View Post
    G'day,
    When did the E type ever have a V6 engine?
    Yeah they got bagged to death on that one if you look at the comments on the story. There was also claims about V8s.

    Never let the facts stand in the way of a poorly written newspaper article these days.
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug206gti View Post
    G'day,
    When did the E type ever have a V6 engine?
    SMH have actually edited that... originally it said "V8 or V12" but they modified to "V6 or V12".... both wrong. I think they often get the work experience kids to post the online news.

    And yes Stuart, I do know what you mean... 100% But I am very much relieved that they did not release a pastiche of the DS as a retro model with just a few styling nods to the original but nothing in the way of innovative engineering. That would have been more insulting to the DS legacy than just stealing the name.

    Although, I kinda like these:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Citroen should have done with the DS3-virtual-tuning-3.jpg   What Citroen should have done with the DS3-virtual-tuning-2.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Dammery View Post
    What I'm saying is I would have liked a modern take on a classic design. Jag have outdone themselves in this area. In some ways when I see a C6 I am reminded of the CX, especially the pockets inside the door...but I would have loved some more retro styling.
    Why? Are you in the market for a DS3? A DS4 perhaps? If not, then perhaps it wasn't built with your specific tastes in mind. It doesn't suit me and I simply prefer bigger cars, so I really wouldn't be part of their target market. While a few petrol heads may own one, most owners are just regular car buyers sold on it's function as an up-spec and stylish city car. The DS3 has been selling well to it's target market in Europe and after a fairly slow start here, it's moving along much better. The lower price and increased advertising probably helps. So, PSA must have done fairly well with the focus group work and identified what suits the niche that Mini has occupied. If you want a new C6 to replace the CX, I'd get in quickly.

    I'm not a great fan of the E-Type retro Jag, but, again, I'm not buying it, so it hardly matters. As a very limited built-to-order vehicle, it's always going to find a few buyers who want something unusual and can pay. However, if you want an E-Type, just buy an E-Type and and XK-R leaving lots of change. The XF and the current XJ series represented a big styling break from the cues that really hark back to the 1960's. If you look at the Jaguars built under Sir William Lyon's direction, there were several significant styling changes. Citroen also has this type of major model change in it's history and it it's not always a bad thing.

    p.s Half the time, these retro cars just look like dodgy hot-rods with bits that really don't work well together. I initially thought the C6 looked a bit like the front, middle and back were designed by different teams, but it works better than photos suggest. One of the prettiest cars of the last decade was the Maserati Quattroporte. Had the C6 looked more like that it would probably have sold far better. VW and Mini (esp. the vans) look odd to me. Jag's retro S-Type of 1999 actually worked well and still looks stylish, but the XF that replaced it dates it. The same thing happened to the earlier models when the XJ was released and before that the Mk VII made the earlier pushrod cars look ancient.
    Last edited by David S; 10th March 2012 at 08:14 PM.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug206gti View Post
    G'day,
    When did the E type ever have a V6 engine?
    After a very severe front ender bent the straight six?

    John

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    Fellow Frogger! Stuart Dammery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    SMH have actually edited that... originally it said "V8 or V12" but they modified to "V6 or V12".... both wrong. I think they often get the work experience kids to post the online news.

    And yes Stuart, I do know what you mean... 100% But I am very much relieved that they did not release a pastiche of the DS as a retro model with just a few styling nods to the original but nothing in the way of innovative engineering. That would have been more insulting to the DS legacy than just stealing the name.

    Although, I kinda like these:
    Ive seen the first pic before, but theres something in the second one. They almost got it.....horrible wheels though.
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Dammery View Post
    Ive seen the first pic before, but theres something in the second one. They almost got it.....horrible wheels though.
    Yes, the second rings true, mostly bacause it is a photo of a real DS photoshopped a little. They pasted in some oversize ugly wheels and spoiled it.
    Michael
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I don't think the C6 captures much from a CX, in fact I think that they lost the opportunity to incorporate some unique CX bits.
    Actually I think the C6 gets quite a few styling cues from the CX without being excessively retro. It strikes the balance just right. Flat sides instead of the tumblehome that the CX had which allows them to have the exposed rear wheel and look more 'modern' The concave rear window is there because it is such a great idea. Pity they didn't continue with the interior.

    Contrast to the new Mini and new Beetle. Obtain original car plans, take to photocopier, enlarge 120%. Voila, new car.

    As for Citroen using the DS name again, it doesn't relay bug me and I think you would be surprised how many people who buy them would know there is another DS.
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    my 2 centimes worth.....

    I have no problem with Citroen introducing the DS3/DS4/DS5 range but I disagree with using the DS name. It suggests a link to the iconic DS cars when there is obviously none. If they designed and brought out a car that was based on and resembled the DS then perhaps yes call it new DS or something. But as these have no relation I think they should have opted for some other naming convention. Why not some other French artists seeing as they have "borrowed' the Picasso name. Or maybe C3X/C4X/C5X etc.

    With all this interest in bringing out retro cars from a lot of manufacturers, I've got a suggestion for Citroen which I've had brewing in the back of my mind for a long time.
    Bring out a limited run of say 1,000 CX's or DS23's, built exactly to the original model, perhaps updated with the latest safety stuff like airbags if need be, but built in 2012/2013 to current technological and engineering practices. But it would look like a natural progression from that model, eg a CX series 3. Perhaps a rerun of limited editions of CX2500 diesel turbo 2. I reckon they would sell 1,000 of thoseworld wide without any problem. I'd buy one.

    Glenn

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