CX 2400ie does not start
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Default CX 2400ie does not start

    Okay, first lets clarify one thing, this is a 2400 ie with no crank angle sensors no comments about 2500 electric ignition please
    What happened was, the engine just suddenly stopped. It was idling nicely and I was checking the hydraulic oil level.
    I have diagnosed that we have no spark. We have no spark coming to the distributor. We have got 12v coming to the coil. I have tried with another coil . I have tried with another ignition module. I have tried with another battery. I have verified all the cables in the coil/ ignition module area are plugged in.
    Is there anything obvious I should check? Next one to check would be the distributor but as that is an annoying job to do (ignition timing to adjust and all that) I would like to try something else before proceeding with installing my spare distributor.

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    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  2. #2
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimmo View Post
    Okay, first lets clarify one thing, this is a 2400 ie with no crank angle sensors no comments about 2500 electric ignition please
    What happened was, the engine just suddenly stopped. It was idling nicely and I was checking the hydraulic oil level.
    I have diagnosed that we have no spark. We have no spark coming to the distributor. We have got 12v coming to the coil. I have tried with another coil . I have tried with another ignition module. I have tried with another battery. I have verified all the cables in the coil/ ignition module area are plugged in.
    Is there anything obvious I should check? Next one to check would be the distributor but as that is an annoying job to do (ignition timing to adjust and all that) I would like to try something else before proceeding with installing my spare distributor.
    You could try the easier option and swap the distributor cap from your spare? Possible you have a hairline crack in the one on the car?

    Cheers
    Chris
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  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    12volts at the coil, yet no spark ?? Before you tear your hair out, have you checked the impedence of the coil --> dizzie HT lead ? This one should be sparking, if it's not, that rules out dizzie button, cap etc...

    The must be an optical type sensor inside the dizzie a "slotted' wheel passes through to trigger the ingnitor, is this working

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    I have tested the dizzie to coil lead with the multimeter.
    Unfortunately my spare distributor is of a different type (SEV vs Ducellier) so to test I need to swap the whole distributor over.
    The sensor at the distributor or wiring from the sensor to the ignition module is the next suspect.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I'll bet the coil in the distributor is open circuit. Check the continuity, double check by heating the coil with a hair dryer. Both 2400ies I have had failed with this fault. Will it start after it has cooled down? Otherwise your only option is to swap the distributor. In my experience the SEV distributor is much more reliable
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  6. #6
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    See if you can get a spark from the coil lead by unplugging it from the distributor and then cranking it. If the rotor or cap are shorting, then you should still get a strong spark at the coil lead. If that's good, it narrows down the problem to some inexpensive parts.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    It was a faulty hall sensor in the Ducellier distributor. I dont think it gives any signal out at all. I have got a spare SEV distributor and that gives the spark.
    However, the fitting instructions in the Haynes manual are only for the Ducellier. I installed the SEV distributor the way I though it would go , but it the engine did not start, just a massive backfiring. Maybe I just follow the instructions for the Ducellier and try again.

    Has anybody seen a replacement hall sensor to Ducellier for sale anywhere? I would like to keep one spare distributor at hand all the time.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  8. #8
    UFO
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    Could it be you have the replacement dizzy out by 180 degrees? I did that in my D once with similar awful results.
    Craig K
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I think UFO is right, I swapped to an SEV distributor in Nov 1997, so I know it works with the standard switching module. I can't remember the details but think I just noted which way the rotor cap was pointing and made sure the SEV was pointing the same way when it went in.
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    Kimmo, what was the end of the story? I'm asking because my familiale has just done what yours did: stopped dead in its tracks, 3 times in the last 3 days and each time about 5 minutes from startup. So far I've only had time to establish that I have feed to the coil/module but no spark. Your experience may help narrow my search. Have you been able to source a module or distributor? They seem to make hen's teeth look common.
    2006 C5 2.0 HDI estate - daily driver
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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    John,
    That sounds more like crank sensor......
    no such thing in 2400i

    (or, actually some late ones were built with electric ignition - hope John has not got one)
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John P View Post
    Kimmo, what was the end of the story? I'm asking because my familiale has just done what yours did: stopped dead in its tracks, 3 times in the last 3 days and each time about 5 minutes from startup. So far I've only had time to establish that I have feed to the coil/module but no spark. Your experience may help narrow my search. Have you been able to source a module or distributor? They seem to make hen's teeth look common.
    I had a spare distributor and now I have got spark. I haven't had time to set the ignition timing correctly yet. I wonder if the hall sensor output can be tested with a multimeter? The broken one gave no reading when cranked (multimeter sensors in the output terminals coming out from the distributor). I will try if the good one gives a reading.

    Cx-basis has got the sensors for both SEV and Ducellier types.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    It gets the timing signal from the distributor - yeah, it has got a distributor
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  14. #14
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    Default Just a silly thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Sorry, meant flywheel sensor, are you saying the 2400ie doesn't have a flywheel sensor?
    The 2400ie has Bosch L Jetronic in it. I don't know where the computer is, but it will be in some 'orrible location in the cabin, probably under the left front carpet or left front seat...

    The L Jet has a capability to display error codes using a couple of blinking LEDs. I have had no trouble finding faulty components using the L Jet error codes.

    Bruce.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    CX 2400ie has the EFI computer behind the trim drivers side. If you reach behind you can feel the connector. You can also see the screw holding it in the trim below the steering wheel. As has been said before there are no crank sensors on 2400ie except for about the last 6 months of production they got the system used on the 2500s. A very rare beast indeed
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  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The wasted spark twin coil setup is obviously a better setup. Having said that.... having a dizzie there has worked for the last century or so

    'Richo, it's just a dizzie with hall effect sensor instead of points in it, and the "ignitor" module... along with standard coil/rotor bottom/cap/etc... Very common among almost all cars in the late 80's. It's usually the "ignitor" that overheats and stops (there should be heat sink paste behind them). Easily tested with a hair drier/heat gun onto it in your shed. The optical sensor/trigger assembly I imagine would either work .... or not work, none of this intermitant stuff.

    I have never owned one of these injected cars though. The ones I have had here are usually the later twin coil setup or carby/points.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! John P's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input, guys. I'm now trying to get the system to misbehave in the garage. I'll keep you posted.
    2006 C5 2.0 HDI estate - daily driver
    1981 2CV - The Amelie project is complete.
    1930 C6F torpedo - My Great Folly! Project under way.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    When the hall effect sensor in the distributor is working you should get a reading in the multimeter (connect to two wires coming out of the distributor and going down to the ignition module behind the right side headlight) when cranking.
    I tested that in the morning.

    BTW, would it make sense of relocating the coil and ignition module up on the wheel-arch - the current location is near the exhaust and gets pretty hot.
    I think it gets a good cooling breeze in the current location when driving but a massive heat soak from the exhaust as soon as you stop.
    The coil and ignition module are bolted on a heatsink but I think it still gets hot there especially when the car is parked after a long drive.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    John I got mine to misbehave by measuring the resistance of the coil, and with the multimeter connected hit the coil with your partners hair dryer on high heat. If it goes open circuit you have nailed it. I presume you have the Ducellier unit with the star shaped device to create the Hall effect in the coil. In that you can actually see the coil. In the SEV there is nothing to see

    When the Prestige developed this fault I used to keep a good supply of reading in a box in the boot. When it stopped, just coast over to the side of the road, get in the back and start passing the time. With the bonnet up and the dizzy cap off it would restart in about 20 minutes.
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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    I finally got some time to start looking at the problem again. I definately have spark but the timing is wrong.
    I followed the Haynes instructions by finding the correct marking on the flywheel and positioning the distrbutor so that the distributor rotor points at where the ignition lead to the 1st cylinder goes. I also checked that all the leads are connected in the correct order.
    When cranking for 10 seconds or so , I got a really loud bang. It had blown the inlet hose going to the air-filter off! Would that mean the ignition is really advanced or that it is 180 degress off or something else? I presume this would happen if the spark comes when the inlet valve is open.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'd say you have the plug leads hooked up wrong. There not 1,2,3,4 are they ?? They need to be 1,3,4,2 on every citroen I've had

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    No, they're not 1,2,3,4 I followed the instructions in the haynes.
    It could be that I got it 180 degrees off - that would make sense. The cylinder is in intake cycle when the ignition happens, hence blowing back through inlet manifold.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Somebody put the flywheel on 180 degrees out?
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    How does the ECU know which injector to actuate?
    I swapped the leads coming to the distributor so it is 180 degrees from the previous scenario and now it does not have any signs of life.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Where does the rotor button point with No1 at TDC?. It should be pointing to the lead that runs to No1 on the dizzie cap. If it's pointing somewhere else you need to start from scratch...

    ie: Get the motor at TDC on No 1. See where the rotor button is pointing.

    1) Plug the HT lead to No1 onto where ever the rotor button is pointing.
    2) Remove the cap again and crank the engine, take note of which direction the engine is spinning.
    3) In the direction the motor spins, hook up the rest of the leads. ie: starting at No1 that you have already plugged on, hook up 3, then 4, then 2 .

    From under the bonnet with the ignition on crank the car, move the dizzie a small amount in either direction until it starts. Once running you can use your timing light to set it.

    I'm not aware of a way of setting the timing statically without points. maybe someone else here does ?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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