Channel to hold door seals on A/B/C pillars
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  1. #1
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    Default Channel to hold door seals on A/B/C pillars

    Just got back from my panel beater where my ID21F is being restored. He has removed all 10 of the door seal channels (i.e. both sides - A/B/C pillars and roof) that were rusted out. He tells me that he can't fabricate these fragile sections and that I need to order new sections for him to weld in.

    I have been buying all my new parts from Darrin at Citroen Classics, so I just jumped on his website and found the parts I need, but his description says:

    "These reproduction channels require some work to make them fit, but they are still the best we can find.
    It is best to bond these in place with a suitable bonding sealer, rather than trying to weld them."

    http://shop.citroenclassics.co.uk/ch...llar-589-p.asp

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    Before I go ahead and order them, does anyone in Australia know of a better solution???

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    check some wrecks possibly I don't see how you would get that to Australia without it being destroyed. Surely it can be fabricated. It's just a folded over piece of metal isn't it (being hidden you could make it in 3 or 4 sections).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  3. #3
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    Default Have asked both those questions

    Hi Shane, yes good questions, but I looked into both those points.

    Apparently it would be too difficult to unpick those sections from a wreck without damaging them, given how fragile the pieces are.

    And due to the very tight and intricate shape (see the cross section diagram in the parts diagram in the link in my previous post), apparently too difficult for my panel beater to fabricate.

    But yes I would be worried about them being damaged in transit.

    Don't know what to do...

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I have a couple of wrecks here... There likely rusty, but I'll look at them on the weekend. From memory that pinch seal channel is just spot welded on the top. I'm sure it could be unpicked if you can find a wreck that has a good one ... Obviously if it's rusty on the wreck, bending it open to drill the spotwelds will break it.

    It's missing from the windscreen/roof section we need to use here, so that one must have been removed for use by someone .... so it is possible.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  5. #5
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    Default Thanks

    OK thanks Shane

  6. #6
    Member DSuper's Avatar
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    I used repro parts but they took a lot of work to get an OK fit (Many leaks but that may have more to do with my fitting of the rubbers and having the doors and windows close harder/ tighter against the frames)

    Urethaneing (glue) after painting seems to be the way to go.


    If using repro:

    Fitting is bad along their length, and fitting is bad so far as allowing the rubber to wrap around and also curling around enough at the edges to grab onto/ pinch into the rubber.

    I spent half a day with a panelbeater. I hammered around a bit of 6 or 8 mm steel to introduce a few extra folds (?? see picture !!) in the metal to grab onto the rubbers better and affectively shorten the centre to allow the rubbers to actually reach around.

    Then the panel beater (dry) fitted them to the car. Test/scrutinise that the rubbers will actually fit.

    With so much beating the galvanising was damaged so I took to the painters to 2 pack urethane paint them.

    Moan: [this paintjob could be scratched off with my fingernail so I took it to another painter to strip and repaint them. This effort could also be scratched of with my fingernail. Running out of time I fitted "as was". In heindsight I should have had them regalvanised so a crappy paint job would not matter. I messed up the fit of one part so had to grind the (too long) centre off - I stripped off surrounding paint to brush on new paint to that area and there was rust underneath!!!]

    Parts $500 incl GST (to replace 2/3 of them with new)
    half a day by a panelbeater $280
    1st crappy paintjob $300
    2nd strip & crappy repaintjob $500

    Total $1580+ with substandard paint job.

    Is galvanising a good idea in others minds. Would it be more long lasting and stand up to the little bit of bending required to fit / pinch onto the rubbers.


    GREY PENCIL REPRESENTS DOOR RUBBER


    Leave splayed a little from the back for painting, then after painting squeeze together a little so it will fit snugly onto pinch weld of pillar. then glue on with urethane.

    Note: Please make up your own mind what of this if any! is good advice.




    Parts off a wreck will fit the best but it will be time consuming to remove them and they will have holes from drilling out the welds!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Channel to hold door seals on A/B/C pillars-door-jambs.jpg  
    Last edited by DSuper; 1st March 2012 at 08:13 PM.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSuper View Post
    I
    Parts $500 incl GST (to replace 2/3 of them with new)
    half a day by a panelbeater $280
    1st crappy paintjob $300
    2nd strip & crappy repaintjob $500

    Total $1580+ with substandard paint job.






    dino

  8. #8
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    They've now all been removed, so you now have to replace them with what you can get. Doesn't sound like a very helpful or inventive panel beater though!

    I've made repair sections from thin sheet and also salvaged a few bits from a wreck. There will inevitably be rust behind the portions that still look OK, so you can either approach it with the view of eliminating all that rust or just patching and controlling it. You would be lucky to find a car with absolutely no rust in this area and that is in the donor category.

    Really you want a spot welder to fit them as drilling a hole and tacking them on with other types of welders is something of a pain. It works, but it's not as tidy as a spot weld. A problem with the spot weld is that you are joining two sections of very thin steel to two or three thicknesses of steel in the pillars.

    If you make them up, remember that the the profile is radiused and the ends of the W form bend in slightly at the edges to grip the rubber neatly. If you made straight strips, you'd need formers to make the bends and they are not just in one plane and they tend to collapse when bent.

    On the Pallas sedan I've been messing about with, refitting the rubbers was a right pain for me and I had particular hassle getting the strips on the inside refitted. Tapping the retainer down on the inside like you do outside didn't let the black moulding lie flat on top of the rubber. The solution in that case was not to tap it down inside the car, but to insert a strip behind the moulding to make it sit properly. It needs the little bend at the end of the W section to hold it together though. I don't have a photo to hand, but you'd see the sedan parts book shows a foam rubber insert for this purpose. I found flyscreen wire retainer rubber from Bunnings was perfect for the job. The finisher for the non-Pallas cars will be a bit different though.
    Last edited by David S; 1st March 2012 at 08:28 PM.

  9. #9
    Member onlyfrogcars's Avatar
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    Default

    Citroen Classics reply:

    Firstly, we can get the parts to Australia undamaged, that's the easy bit.

    Secondly, contrary to popular belief, the zinc plating (Zintec or similar) on the seal channels is not intended to provide any sort of rust protection once fitted to the car. It is merely there to protect the steel from corroding between the time the sheet of steel is plated, through the sheet storage, part manufacturing and part storage stages until it gets to you. If it wasn't there, you'd be getting parts coated in a brown powdery substance called rust! If you fit any of these parts made zinc plated steel without any additional proper protection, they'll be corroded in no time.

    We've seen at least one "restoration" done elsewhere, where the door bottoms were replaced with the new (zinc plated) repair panels. A couple of months later the car came to us as the door catches were not operating properly. The car looked very nice, but when we removed the inner door trims to get to the catches, we found that no protection of any sort had been applied inside the doors. In that short space of time, the zinc had corroded and so had the steel underneath. Brown rust was coming through all over the new sections and when the vehicle owner saw it he was horrified, having just spent all that money to sort it out. We cleaned it up as best we could and applied plenty of cavity wax, which should keep it healthy, but if we hadn't stumbled across it, the doors would have need doing again within a few years.
    Our experience has also found that paint will not stick to zinc properly long term, even with the proper etch primer being used. We remove as much of the plating as possible wherever we want good paint adhesion, then use a 2K etch primer before painting. In the case of these seal channels, paint them and the pillars etc after bonding them on.

    The diagrams that DSuper posted show exactly what the problem with the repro parts is, but in addition to this they also need to be shaped to fit the curve of the pillars as they are made too straight. We have to spend around 2 hours per channel to get them ready to fit to the car.

    We have tried removing good ones from a scrap car, but you need a very sharp spot weld drill and a lot of patience, even then what you get will be a bit of a mess and probably not usable. The original channels are a lot more flimsy that the repro parts. We prefer to spend that time adjusting the new ones instead as you end up with a much better job in the end.

    Once you have the seal channels fitted, you will spend at least a full week re-fitting the door seals. If you want doors that seal well, the rubber seals should not just be fitted and crimped back in. They should be fitted and crimped gently in a couple of places, just enough to hold them in place. Then the panels need to be refitted to the car and aligned nicely with each other etc. and once that is done, the rubber door seals need to be adjusted up or down in order to fit the tops of the doors / bottom of the window accurately. In practice, this is done in conjunction with adjusting the panel fit, but it all needs to be done together and once everything works together properly, remove the panels without losing the position adjustments and crimp the rubbers in place properly.

    If you just crimp the rubbers in place without reference to panel alignment, you have a very real risk of the doors / windows not sealing when the panels are aligned and the panels not aligning when the doors and windows are adjusted to seal.
    This is one of the jobs on a D which will keep you out trouble for a good length of time and make you go grey(er) overnight!

    Good Luck.

    Darrin

  10. #10
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    Default Thanks

    Thanks all for the very detailed comments, much appreciated.

    OK looks like I'll be ordering a set of the repro channels from you Darrin (plus a bunch of other stuff).

    I will take some photos of the before and after repair and post here, so that people can see the result.

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