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    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Default CX Airconditioner Advice

    Hi all,

    I am seeking some advice about what I need to do next as I don't have the tools to do the job and not sure if some specific tools exist.

    I have installed the rear air conditioner unit and want to now put the enclosure around it. The problem is do I have to drill the holes for the hoses now or can it be done later. To do it later would require a tool that can cut at 90 deg rather than straight on. Not sure if this tool exists. Putting the enclosure on will be require a bit of sticky stuff so very difficult to get off at a later date.

    Advice please.

    Laurie

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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Laurie,

    sorry, I did get your PM... REMOVE THE WHEEL BEFORE YOU DO THIS. Just use the biggest drills you have and drill from the inside, you can always open the holes up with a round file. The reason you remove the wheel, is you'll be mightily p!$$ed off if you drill through the side wall of the tire ( don't ask me how I know this ). Remember to ensure the condensate drain runs downhill, so don't drill the holes to high. You dont' need to be exacting (as the copper pipes are quite maliable), however you want it it close. Did you take a template of the holes hacked into the donar car ? I could get some measurements if you like.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Hi all,

    I am seeking some advice about what I need to do next as I don't have the tools to do the job and not sure if some specific tools exist.

    I have installed the rear air conditioner unit and want to now put the enclosure around it. The problem is do I have to drill the holes for the hoses now or can it be done later. To do it later would require a tool that can cut at 90 deg rather than straight on. Not sure if this tool exists. Putting the enclosure on will be require a bit of sticky stuff so very difficult to get off at a later date.

    Advice please.

    Laurie
    Drill a 1/4 hole and use a chassis punch. Gives a much neater hole and works in a confined space.

    You can get cheapie set for less $40 and they are a useful tool to have.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJpc5CeiAtQ - start at about 33 secs!

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    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Robmac,

    Thank you very much for that. I had no idea such a tool existed. YouTube is a wonder as are the people on this forum.

    Shane,

    Now the question for you. I am going to use rubber hose not copper pipe to run front to back. i was imagining that the hose people would put an elbow in at the boot end to go through the hole and then have the nuts to go onto the AC unit inside the boot. That way the hose will not be kinked at all.

    So for the first 1/4 inch hole I need to drill. Can it be done from inside the wheel arch or am I better off doing it from inside the boot. The chassis punch does not look like it needs much room at all.

    I think getting the AC working will be one of the last things I will do to finish the car off but I want to finish the enclosure etc before moving forward (toward the front of the car). Hence worrying about if the hole has to be done now.

    Laurie

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I learn something every single time I read one of your posts Rob. I'd never heard of "knockout punches" before. Gee's wouldn't they make firewall holes for plumbing and wiring easy too.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Robmac,

    Thank you very much for that. I had no idea such a tool existed. YouTube is a wonder as are the people on this forum.

    Shane,

    Now the question for you. I am going to use rubber hose not copper pipe to run front to back. i was imagining that the hose people would put an elbow in at the boot end to go through the hole and then have the nuts to go onto the AC unit inside the boot. That way the hose will not be kinked at all.

    So for the first 1/4 inch hole I need to drill. Can it be done from inside the wheel arch or am I better off doing it from inside the boot. The chassis punch does not look like it needs much room at all.

    I think getting the AC working will be one of the last things I will do to finish the car off but I want to finish the enclosure etc before moving forward (toward the front of the car). Hence worrying about if the hole has to be done now.

    Laurie
    I'd be worried about the diameter of rubber hoses. You may need to come down the length of the car and up through the boot floor. I think the rear wheel may have clearance issues with the much wider rubber hosing. Surely it would be cheaper and easier to run copper Hopefully someone on aussiefrogs will have a CX with copper pipes on a wreck they can send you

    Bugger I just went looking for the piccies I posted when I fitted the rear unit to my car, but it was all lost in the crash. You should have plenty of space to drill from inside the boot surely ? I must have used a 90degree elbow in my drill chuck if there isn't.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Robmac,

    Thank you very much for that. I had no idea such a tool existed. YouTube is a wonder as are the people on this forum.

    Shane,

    Now the question for you. I am going to use rubber hose not copper pipe to run front to back. i was imagining that the hose people would put an elbow in at the boot end to go through the hole and then have the nuts to go onto the AC unit inside the boot. That way the hose will not be kinked at all.

    So for the first 1/4 inch hole I need to drill. Can it be done from inside the wheel arch or am I better off doing it from inside the boot. The chassis punch does not look like it needs much room at all.

    I think getting the AC working will be one of the last things I will do to finish the car off but I want to finish the enclosure etc before moving forward (toward the front of the car). Hence worrying about if the hole has to be done now.

    Laurie
    Laurie,

    If would do the aircon plumbing in 0.91 wall copper wherever possible, especially the longer runs. The only section that needs hoses are the lines to the compressor. It's smaller in size and easier to form than hose. Looks better too. Long runs of hose tend to loose refrigerant via permeation through the hose.

    Brass flare fittings and adaptors to nearly any type of aircon fittings are readily available. A decent flaring tool is a necessity (not a punch type)

    My

    cheers


    Rob

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    One point to note: You NEED a soleniod for that rear unit. I didn't follow Robs very good advice on this and ended up with the rear unit turning into a lump of ice. This happened with extended use in extreme weather conditions. (the pool of water that would appear under the back of the car once you pulled up was a site to behold though... The damn thing would thaw in seconds once you stopped.... Certainly is scared sh!t out of my wife .... "NOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE BLOODY CAR" when she spotted the stream of water down the car, and along the gutter ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    One point to note: You NEED a soleniod for that rear unit. I didn't follow Robs very good advice on this and ended up with the rear unit turning into a lump of ice. This happened with extended use in extreme weather conditions. (the pool of water that would appear under the back of the car once you pulled up was a site to behold though... The damn thing would thaw in seconds once you stopped.... Certainly is scared sh!t out of my wife .... "NOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE BLOODY CAR" when she spotted the stream of water down the car, and along the gutter ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Did you get that solenoid valve fitted in the Liquid line? How did it work? Did you use a second thermostat for the rear unit?

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I learn something every single time I read one of your posts Rob. I'd never heard of "knockout punches" before. Gee's wouldn't they make firewall holes for plumbing and wiring easy too.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Called chassis punch in Australia.

    As a kid I used them to make up aluminium chassis for valve radios. They are a necessity for cutting valve socket holes.

    The best thing is there is no swarf unlike like a hole saw or drilled and filed hole.

    They are available as hand punches (screw thread) or like this http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/P020

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Did you get that solenoid valve fitted in the Liquid line? How did it work? Did you use a second thermostat for the rear unit?
    It's still sitting in the boot of the car along with the 2nd thermastat .... patiently waiting for an excuse for me to pull the A/C apart. As soon as I have a reason to pull the system apart and release the gas & replace the drier it will be fitted. I'm amazed I haven't needed to touch it yet I was sure I'd have it together and apart dozens of times before it was right. But so far it's just worked, and worked well.

    As soon as the old ID19 is on the road, I'll get to work on the CX in earnest, fix up it's front end bushes, pull the A/C apart, fit a new alternator etc.... I'm going to try and chase up the water pump the gears the A/C compressor up too, so it'll work better at idle. It's a lazy little motor is is usually spinning at about 2200rpm on the highway.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Refrigerant is getting so expensive I've built a recovery unit.

    All you need is cheapie compressed air oil trap/ dryer, a condenser, a couple of computer fans, a dual line hi/lo pressure switch and a small fridge compressor. A filter dryer to is nice as well.

    It's not critical mine was made from junk bar the combined adjustable HI/lo pressure switch.

    Make sure you draw gas only, the liquid stuffs the poly carb on the oil trap

    The hi pressure sense line is on the output (recovery cylinder) side. Set to around 250psi.

    The lo pressure line sense line is on the input (system being drained) side. Set to around -5 inches.

    Switch her on wait for 10 minutes , turns off automatically when done and you have a cylinder with some refrigerant in it.

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks Rob,

    would you believe I actually have a refrigerant recovery machine here. It's an R12 one. I have recovered hychill into an LPG bottle. However I haven't been brave enough to use any of the recovered refrigerant yet... hmmm....

    I'm not sure about the oil etc... in it. If we manage to get traces of R134A oil into, I'll make quite a mess

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Thanks Rob,

    would you believe I actually have a refrigerant recovery machine here. It's an R12 one. I have recovered hychill into an LPG bottle. However I haven't been brave enough to use any of the recovered refrigerant yet... hmmm....

    I'm not sure about the oil etc... in it. If we manage to get traces of R134A oil into, I'll make quite a mess

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Mine only works with one refrigerant and I ain't saying which one!

    I would not mix oils/refrigerants in a machine.
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    I'm hoping Dragan sees and responds to this thread. He knows about AC in CXs in Aus.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Laurie, I would seriously consider fitting the solenoid that is talked about, together with an electronic thermostat with the sensor in the return air duct and a dial on the back of the centre console.

    Rear seat passengers in the Prestige complain it is too cold in the back, except on really hot days. The reason I would put the control on the centre console is so it will be within reach of the driver. My thought is rear passengers will set the temp so high that you won't get the help from the rear unit you need in the front sometimes and you may need to set a new compromise position.
    Mine

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    Rob, Been to Bunnings and SuperCheap about the tool you described and they looked at me like I had 6 heads. Never heard of it they said. Sure you don't mean a hole saw. Found them online so that might be the go. Thank you for the advice.

    The Airclima box has a place for the thermostat - down side it is in the boot. I was intending to put one in but placement not decided upon yet. I was thinking on the back parcel shelf as it will be out of the way and I now very rarely carry any passengers in the back of the car.

    I am just trying to get the external work done so I can get it back together and then I will work on the air wiring etc. As winter is coming to Armidale it is not a priority. (Getting my carport back is I have been told)

    I now know I have to put three holes into the wheel arch now and I can move on to sealing the box up and come back to it later when I have the copper tubing to run from front to rear. The reason I was asking about the hole is because I am going to put silicon around the edge of the unit to make it airtight. Once that is done I do not want to have to take the cover off again.

    One question though Shane with the drainage tube does it only need to be slightly below the unit to drain sufficiently or does it need a big drop. Something I had not considered.

    Laurie

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Laurie, I would seriously consider fitting the solenoid that is talked about, together with an electronic thermostat with the sensor in the return air duct and a dial on the back of the centre console.

    Rear seat passengers in the Prestige complain it is too cold in the back, except on really hot days. The reason I would put the control on the centre console is so it will be within reach of the driver. My thought is rear passengers will set the temp so high that you won't get the help from the rear unit you need in the front sometimes and you may need to set a new compromise position.

    Normally a thermostat is set to a fixed temperature, ie slightly above freezing. This cycles the solenoid valve/ compressor.

    The "comfort" level is determined by the fan speed.

    Most integrated systems with TX valve evaporators don't have an accessible nor user adjustable thermostat.

    Under dash units where the air comes straight off the coil need to have some method of reducing air chill and therefore have adjustable thermostats.

    EDIT: If you have an adequately sized compressor and fit another solenoid to the front you can run totally independent operation of front and back .

    This was done by ND on YR (brick shaped) Taragos . Some had a third evaporator and solenoid valve for the ice box.
    I'd remote the rear fan speed switch to the console but not worry about having a remote thermostat.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I know, the front unit on the Prestige has just such a thermostat. Just above freezing is about the warmest it can get with emphasis on 'just'. At night with the fan speed on low it gets very cold but you get used to it. I'd say air temp holds at about 16-18 in those conditions.

    My rear unit has no thermostat at all. I guess the best system would be to have one like the front one has, but non adjustable to stop the rear coil icing up. However I think an air temp thermostat would be essential to keep the rear comfortable. Even with the rear fan on the lowest speed, rear passengers freeze. It could be in series with the fixed thermostat so that when either cuts out the solenoid is powered. As the front unit does not have a solenoid there is no danger of to the compressor. You could have a unit like Xantias have where a fan draws air over the sensor, but in this case as we are not doing climate control so a sensor in the return air duct would work

    I used to drive an XA Falcon taxi which was one of the first cabs air-conditioned in Sydney. It had a big Mark IV unit in the boot with a temp dial on the side. You had to stop the car, get out and reach into the boot to adjust. Adjustment was limited so it was always cold. Passengers loved getting in but especially on warm nights complained about the cold. I used to be the thermostat and turn the unit on and off as necessary.
    Mine

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    In the family

    Xantia SX

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Laurie,

    you probably want a decent drop for the drain just incase the car is ever parked on an angle. Given the side of the road we drive on, you should really be ok with it "marginal", as the camber of any roads/parks should aid in the draining

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    I know, the front unit on the Prestige has just such a thermostat. Just above freezing is about the warmest it can get with emphasis on 'just'. At night with the fan speed on low it gets very cold but you get used to it. I'd say air temp holds at about 16-18 in those conditions.

    My rear unit has no thermostat at all. I guess the best system would be to have one like the front one has, but non adjustable to stop the rear coil icing up. However I think an air temp thermostat would be essential to keep the rear comfortable. Even with the rear fan on the lowest speed, rear passengers freeze. It could be in series with the fixed thermostat so that when either cuts out the solenoid is powered. As the front unit does not have a solenoid there is no danger of to the compressor. You could have a unit like Xantias have where a fan draws air over the sensor, but in this case as we are not doing climate control so a sensor in the return air duct would work

    I used to drive an XA Falcon taxi which was one of the first cabs air-conditioned in Sydney. It had a big Mark IV unit in the boot with a temp dial on the side. You had to stop the car, get out and reach into the boot to adjust. Adjustment was limited so it was always cold. Passengers loved getting in but especially on warm nights complained about the cold. I used to be the thermostat and turn the unit on and off as necessary.
    It would be best to fit a solenoid valve in the rear with a thermostat operating it.
    That way the front unit keeps cooling if it's thermostat is above is temp regardless of the rear.

    Independent front and rear with dual soleniods require a few relays and some wired logic to do the compressor switching. This is the very best way to do the job.

    The Mark5 were one of the original and best in concept air conditioning systems. They are very efficient because the cool air comes straight off the evaporator coils.

    I was involved with a company (run by a friend) who used to fit aftermarket air to Toyota "buses". They were used for transporting disabled kiddies.

    At that stage dual air systems were unavailable, later Denso brought them in, at a price.

    We used a home-brew integrated system in the front, based on Cool Drive components and a MK5 under dash unit in the rear. We developed a custom switch system. Two condensors were required. One vertical in front of the radiator. One horizontal under the front floor.

    The 2L Toyota motors strlugged a bit 'tho.
    Last edited by robmac; 23rd February 2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: corrected bad spelling...

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    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    make sure the control switch is not in a confined area it is a rheostat and heats up do not ask me how I know, but the melted hole in the console maybe a clue.
    It is meant to be in the airflow of the unit!!
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    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Ok after getting some advice from a far more knowledgable person I can infirm that the unit has a solenoid in the system , which goes to the thermostat built into the rear unit so adjustable from the boot.

    I am still talking to my very helpful advisor but at this time I am thinking about this setup but not sure how to get it workn best and if there are any issues with the CX.

    Proposed setup.
    ----------------------
    AC in boot with solenoid
    Thermostat in unit with control knob in boot
    AC in boot only on when front AC on
    AC in boot able to be turned on/off independent of font AC (winter / or frozen up). Switch on roof switch assembly S2CX
    Fan speed of AC in boot controlled by fan speed of AC in front (comfort by fan speed as recommended by robmac)


    Now I can remember a couple of things from previous threads that have been lost when AF went south. Shane you spoke about getting a true 12 v to the fans to improve their performance. Not sure if this is an issue now but trying to think into the future wiring. Also the concerns about the power going through the fan control switch and the heat issue, can't afford an melting.

    More importantly how do you sync two fans speed though one controller?

    So any explicit recommendations would be appreciated.

    Laurie

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    My rough wiring diagram (first attempt)
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    Forget my wiring diagram it won't work.

    Has anyone seen an electronic fan switch, (off-low-med-high) where the actual switch can be in the AC box in the boot (where it has airflow to cool it) and there is a small switch for it that can be remotely located which does not generate any heat (so it does not melt the dash/console).

    I have not been able to find such a device in my searches.

    Laurie

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