D restoration: options/alternatives
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Default D restoration: options/alternatives

    OR even reinvention...

    This thread is partially meant to be about "modern" alternatives...
    Looking at my D ... there are many options or paths one could take...
    I ve read here (shane mainly) and elsewhere people mention "if" citroen made the car today they would have done this or that...

    Is it such a "sin" using modern techniques and materials...
    So no I am not "chrome plating" every D panel and NO i m not making a "carbon fibre" bonnet... (although it would probably look speculator) How does one go about deciding what should or shouldnt be done.... How does one draw the line.... what is in your opinion OK and what isnt...
    Should I keep the car as a "brake fluid" car or not... is a completely different question to: "should I paint the wheels red, put some white walls on it and paint a chequered design on the roof"...

    I have a confession to make...

    I love restored and original Dees...
    But the idea of leaving some surface rust there and getting under skin restored also appeals... almost the "rat look" ideal...
    I dont think I could bring myself to "electronically modernize" it... it simply doesnt register... putting a dvd screen in the dash isnt going to happen...
    But without getting silly... some things should be allowed and perhaps encouraged...
    like the sound and heat proofing... Modern paints,... Leather vs vinly vs goatskin...???

    Opinions on the matter?

    whats say thee?

    What is right and what is wrong...




    dino

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    ps examples of modern changes that are beneficial would be appreciated...whats worked and what hasnt...

  2. #2
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    I for one have been guilty of modernizing a D Special. It was my first D and I wanted to improve it with the best intentions.
    It ended up looking very good indeed,but somewhere between a D and a Pallas. Neitherhere nor there.

    Somehow, now I believe they lose a bit of their charm when modernized.

    My opinion is yours would look fantastic in its original colour and without additions.
    Also it is more likely you would recoup most of your investment when selling which is not to be snizzed at considering they now sell between $15 and$20K

    But as they all say: it's your car and youcando what you want with it.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

    DS23 IE Pallas Automatique
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  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I say ... .It's your car, do what ever you want. My approach has been more "don't spend $$$, and preservation". So ...yeah, if it's rusty, clean the rust off and stick some paint on it.

    Like me your going to have to do something with those panels though. They wont survive getting wet, the paint isn't offering protection from the elements.

    Brake fluid/LHM .... Who gives a hoot. I wouldn't mind betting, so long as that system hasn't been contaminated, just cleaning everything and regassing the spheres will be plenty (the best bit about this is it will cost nothing other than squirt of gas and time). The rubbers on the LHS cars seem to last a lot better than LHM rubber too.

    If you do manage to fit a 4.4litre valiant V8 in there you'll let us know how it was done though right

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  4. #4
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    I'm probably going to offend most early D owners (hope not) with my reply, but I think in terms of what the car is (a Heidelberg ID 19 Parisienne) you should be faithful to what's in the brochure.

    The reason why is quite simple: it's a rare car. Have a look at the Longstroke DS/ID census from years ago. Some of the cars that were registered and running aren't (to my knowledge).

    Because of its rarity, you should consider keeping it how it was/is - the brake fluid, the 400mm wheels, the vinyl seats, the 1911 cc longstroke motor and so on.

    I myself like the 'rat rod' look as well, but you could still keep the paintwork like that and simply do up the mechanicals, suspension and tyres to what the car has always had.

    Converting to LHM apparently reduces the amount of dramas you could have with a brake fluid car. But with the time, money and effort needed, you may as well use that money to maintain its original system.

    People often cut the rims down to allow for a cheaper tyre. I think that when you own a car that only accepts 165 x 400 tyres, you too should accept that fact. It's not like you're going to do 30,000km a year in the car.

    But at the end of the day, if you want to put a flame-thrower out the back and a v8 under the bonnet, it's your call and no-one's going to stop you.

    I like my ID because colour aside, it's a very original car that's been adored by its former owner for 25 years. I pestered Tim for months to sell it to me because I liked how he kept to the formula and didn't throw in a stereo system or darkest legal tinted windows to modernise the car.

    When I sit inside it, I know I'm in a 50 year old car and that's one of many reasons why I'm love with it.

    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Can we go past the obvious: "its your car"...

    In doing justice to both car and good taste (objective)... how, for example, important is the correct shade of green (say you were looking to buy the car) or would one be content with the original even though a modern version might suit the car better...
    I am not trying to lead the argument so as to appease some inner desire in me to paint it in a colour that suits me more... No... I m genuinely interested in the satus quo of feelings regarding such matters... unbiased and honest... ie. shouldn't the restoration is some way represent the time of such restoration...
    Trying to do otherwise is almost dishonest to the here and now...
    Its almost (to me anyway- my experience based around the building industry) a disservice to not use the best available... eg 2 pack paint vs acrylic or enamel (no I m not painting it in enamel )



    dino

  6. #6
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    Dino, go for it!

    I have had a DS as my daily driver for the last few years and I luv it! I still consider myself a young punk (31) and enjoy driving adventures, I'll post some dirt road antics i've been up to in the DS soon.

    Here is a list of Modernisations that I have made to my DS in the last 5yrs it has been on the road.

    • High Torque Valeo starter motor; Starts so much easier!
    • 123 Ignition, Improved reliability, must have.
    • H4 head lights + relays, Headlights that actually work!
    • LPG conversion, Improves engine smoothness vs carby, large increase in economy, cleaner engine oil, why people are still running on petrol is beyond me.
    • Rear parcel shelf brake light; so the Toorak taxis can see when your stopping.
    • Single exhaust pipe after muffler; The exhaust is a major weak point in the system, the after market DS replacement that was highly recommended has a huge restriction in the outlet.
    • Cross flow, higher capacity, aluminium radiator + header tank; similar price to a re-core, massive improvement, allows for better coolant.
    • HT Ignition Leads w/ shielded extension
    • Modern Inertia real seatbelts; enough said.


    I would argue that each one of these is vital to make the DS suitable as a modern daily driver, go anywhere, any time, any distance vehicle.

    The DS's downfalls are, over weight and underpowered, airflow through the engine and running hot.
    I have only improved one of these things, the cooling. Every other mod really just makes it more reliable and a little more efficient.

    What I would like to do next:
    • Remove the fuel system all together, mount a slim LPG tank under the rear seat and a toroidal tank in the very bottom of the boot.
    • Megasquirt, vapour injected LPG setup.
    • Run the exhaust straight out the right side of the engine bay and down the underside of the sill to a side exit; I cant stand bottoming out on the exhaust on an otherwise flat underside any more...
    • Modern twin screw Supercharger running off the AC pulley, there is just no room for a turbo... ;(
    • Test then fit some appropriate air vents in the engine bay to release more trapped air.
    • Plump the intake to a cool source, either before the radiator in the leather shoot, or from the old 'ash tray' style vents in a front guard


    Now I just need some more time and money!

    And if your after some great style ques, check out some of the DS's and ideas on snail2cv.com

    Cheers,

    Harley

  7. #7
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    And on the aesthetic front.

    • Remove all the Citroen badges, and rubber bump stop overrider's from the bars, also remove the small reflectors from the rear guards.
    • Remove the aerial.
    • Pallas style deep red leather interior
    • Early round tail lights.
    • Remove the indicators and mount an LED type rope on the inside of the headlights, like audi.
    • Remove the door mounted rear vision mirrors and mount some round ones off the stainless top corners of the windscreen, opposite to where the sun visors are mounted
    • Cover the lower chassis rail with a box section sill, also having to extend the front and rear guards.
    • Original rims or full hubcaps.
    • Red or White pearl roof.
    • Gloss Black body work.
    • First generation from end is the tits, w/ driving lights modernised to high beams.


    It would be a mild custom that would look amazing!

    Harley

  8. #8
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat View Post
    I'm probably going to offend most early D owners (hope not) with my reply, but I think in terms of what the car is (a Heidelberg ID 19 Parisienne) you should be faithful to what's in the brochure.

    The reason why is quite simple: it's a rare car. Have a look at the Longstroke DS/ID census from years ago. Some of the cars that were registered and running aren't (to my knowledge).

    Because of its rarity, you should consider keeping it how it was/is - the brake fluid, the 400mm wheels, the vinyl seats, the 1911 cc longstroke motor and so on.

    I myself like the 'rat rod' look as well, but you could still keep the paintwork like that and simply do up the mechanicals, suspension and tyres to what the car has always had.

    Converting to LHM apparently reduces the amount of dramas you could have with a brake fluid car. But with the time, money and effort needed, you may as well use that money to maintain its original system.

    People often cut the rims down to allow for a cheaper tyre. I think that when you own a car that only accepts 165 x 400 tyres, you too should accept that fact. It's not like you're going to do 30,000km a year in the car.

    But at the end of the day, if you want to put a flame-thrower out the back and a v8 under the bonnet, it's your call and no-one's going to stop you.

    I like my ID because colour aside, it's a very original car that's been adored by its former owner for 25 years. I pestered Tim for months to sell it to me because I liked how he kept to the formula and didn't throw in a stereo system or darkest legal tinted windows to modernise the car.

    When I sit inside it, I know I'm in a 50 year old car and that's one of many reasons why I'm love with it.

    I'm with you on this one. If you want a DS with grunt, get a later one with grunt. the early DS models are special cars. To some folks' despair perhaps, my R8 has standard everything. If I had two, I might play with one of them, but unmolested R8s are rare. My 4CV is the same.
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
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  9. #9
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Just reiterating, Dino -it is your car.
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  10. #10
    Member Sturla's Avatar
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    I have a book quoting Henry Fradet, the rare Citroen collector in france, who makes a point of saying that it is quite normal to replace all rubber fittings in the system as you do regular maintenance, keep a record and cross out the gaskets/rings/parts you have changed. Replacing all rubber with "white" marked parts (that can take either fluid). When you have made the way round the car you can safely change the fluid to lhm and still have an original car, where the only change made is with rubber parts citroen made to that purpose for use in regular maintenance.
    -74 DS23 bvh, -78 CXgti, -85 CXgtiT1

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    dino

    oppurtunity come but once in a lifetime

    in your case you may well be in luck

    seeing as XM's can't stay on the road without popping bonnets there will be i'd say an XM coming up very shortly

    now then combine the two and have a real sleeper

    but hey it's your car
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

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    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    mnm
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    For what it's worth...

    As you probably know I am restoring my DSpecial. I bought it with electronic ignition already installed but apart from that it's as produced in1970. I'll be painting it in a Citroen DS colour although it may not be a DSpecial original colour. I don't think that really matters.. As long as it makes me smile.

    I'm 43 this year and honestly the older I get the more I appreciate technology from a simpler time, if that can be said of a DS? I love that it doesn't have blue tooth, sat nav, reversing sensors, automatic anything..except ride height..hee hee. Etc.. Etc.. The swivel lights are operated by a piece of wire for god's sake!! The clock is analog.. It ticks!.. The stainless steel and other bling looks like it belongs.. Modern cars have plastic chrome that somehow just doesn't look right to me..It's all part of a charm from another era and I adore it! To give an example.. My 8 yr old nephew on seeing the car for the first time said : "I like the door handles!". Mine having the older style push button.. Something he has never seen before in this modern age. It made me laugh but also realise that this car is different and seemingly minor things are unusual these days.

    From what I have read the Parisienne is very rare.. I would be aiming to preserve that chunk of history you have there as a glorious piece from another time and flaunt it for all it's worth.

    Does that make sense? ignore me if it doesn't..

    Matthew

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Dino,
    Looks like a lovely car. My first experience of Citroen was a ride in an ID in the very early 60's and I was hooked since then!

    I just have to weigh in here with my 2 bobs worth in an attempt to answer your questions.

    On Moby Dick, I took the basic course of making it the car I wanted. At the end of the day, that's the basic motivation in all of us petrol heads, surely.

    Things I've done to Moby are many, some subtle, some practical, all of benefit in my opinion. Here's a few that come readily to mind.

    • 123 ignition, transforms a tractor motor into one more in keeping with a DS reputation.
    • Lots of thermal shielding and soundproofing. I want to be able to enjoy long drives, not suffer through them.
    • High level stop light (above back window) and low level indicators. Mr Citroen had it spot on with eye level indicators, but having them in a different plane to the stop lights, and vice versa, seems illogical to me so I mounted LED indicator repeaters in the tail light assemblies and created a bespoke high level stop light.
    • Good Vibes. Also on the topic of enjoying long drives, I reckon a good quality sound system is a must. I've created a roof console that's just about invisible from outside the car. Big speakers in the back shelf and 3 ways in the front foot well and it's a mobile sound lounge. And of course, this would be useless without the sound insulation.
    • Under the bonnet I've modernised wiring to some extent, I think in a subtle manner, fitted a large capacity alternator, and put on a pod filter fed with cooler air from forward of the radiator. This last sort of grew from wanting a slightly larger inlet pipe in to the air cleaner. I wasn't happy with the design of the original and my modification also improves access to the top of the motor.
    • I've re-upholstered the car in beige velour, with the original brown vinyl highlights on the edges. I've also had the windows tinted to increase the contrast between the gleaming white paint and the dark windows. (Also reduces internal heat)
    • Car already had inertia reels in front, I've fitted new ones and a set in the back as well.
    • Interior lighting was pretty ordinary, so I've slipped a couple of 12 volt fluorescent fittings into the roll under the roof, where they provide a diffuse light reflected off the roof lining, without being visible externally.
    • Fire extinguishers fit neatly between the front seats and the doors.
    • An electric fuel pump controlled from a dash switch lives under the RH sill for priming after it's been sitting a while.
    • I've sacrificed 10% of my gearing by running 205/65-15 tyres, which are readily available and cheap enough I can wear them out on dirt roads without a care in the world.
    • I replaced the flimsy aluminium duct under the front with 4mm aluminium chequer plate cut to size, with vents for the discs and mounting the original ducting on the inside.
    • After losing enough drive shaft studs for a coupling to uncouple, I've modified the drive flanges to take 3 studs and 3 bolts. That won't happen again!


    Not an exhaustive list, but cumulatively they make the car much nicer to live with in the Noughtie Teens (Noughteens?) while keeping the essential DS-ness. (And reliability)

    A purist may not approve of departure from M Citroen's (or more correctly M Lefebfre's) dream but I believe that a car that isn't completely original but gets driven and loved is one more kept on the road, and, in my opinion, far better than having a collector car that one isn't game to use much for fear of undoing all the good work of preserving originality.

    And to put it in perspective, I've rallied, motorkhana'd, Autocrossed, Hill climbed and Toured my car for upwards of 40,000 Km since 2005, and loved every minute of it. It wouldn't have been half as livable doing this if I'd kept it strictly original. The future will see all sorts of other things done. I've already got most of the Megasquirt injection system planned and assembled, but lack the time and space at present (moving house) to realise that particular project.

    As I said before, it's your car and you can do with it what you will. My suggestion is to sit back with a libation of choice and think long and hard at what you want to do with the car before making any hard and fast decisions. If originality is your thing, then by all means maintain it as close as possible and I'll 'ooh and aah" with the best of them when marvelling at the good work you'll undoubtedly put in. (I love to see a beautifully preserved original car, but would be constantly frustrated in owning one like that I think)

    If you want to use it on a regular basis I reckon you'll need to compromise a bit, but the benefits will far outweigh any slight guilt you may feel.

    And in case you think I'm a Citroen Philistine, my plans for Alphonse are to keep him as close as possible to the way he left the factory, albeit with the patina of 55 years worn proudly. My only concession may prove to be one of self preservation, I plan to look at ways of fitting seat belts as unobtrusively as possible, since I also want to drive the thing whenever and wherever I feel like, rarity or no. That being said, plans can change and the work on Alphonse won't commence until later this year when I finally retire.

    My opinions only, not to be taken as gospel, advice or guidance.

    I'll watch your progress with interest and cheer along whatever you do to it. (Up to and including a candy apple paint job! I've always fancied a flame job down the sides of Moby Dick!)

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Next project
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! lamoor's Avatar
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    Default D restorations

    i have had my ds for over 30 years i believe originality is by far the best. BUT it is personal.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM2QX6FUJow

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    Dino,
    Looks like a lovely car. My first experience of Citroen was a ride in an ID in the very early 60's and I was hooked since then!

    I just have to weigh in here with my 2 bobs worth in an attempt to answer your questions.

    On Moby Dick, I took the basic course of making it the car I wanted. At the end of the day, that's the basic motivation in all of us petrol heads, surely.

    Things I've done to Moby are many, some subtle, some practical, all of benefit in my opinion. Here's a few that come readily to mind.

    • 123 ignition, transforms a tractor motor into one more in keeping with a DS reputation.
    • Lots of thermal shielding and soundproofing. I want to be able to enjoy long drives, not suffer through them.
    • High level stop light (above back window) and low level indicators. Mr Citroen had it spot on with eye level indicators, but having them in a different plane to the stop lights, and vice versa, seems illogical to me so I mounted LED indicator repeaters in the tail light assemblies and created a bespoke high level stop light.
    • Good Vibes. Also on the topic of enjoying long drives, I reckon a good quality sound system is a must. I've created a roof console that's just about invisible from outside the car. Big speakers in the back shelf and 3 ways in the front foot well and it's a mobile sound lounge. And of course, this would be useless without the sound insulation.
    • Under the bonnet I've modernised wiring to some extent, I think in a subtle manner, fitted a large capacity alternator, and put on a pod filter fed with cooler air from forward of the radiator. This last sort of grew from wanting a slightly larger inlet pipe in to the air cleaner. I wasn't happy with the design of the original and my modification also improves access to the top of the motor.
    • I've re-upholstered the car in beige velour, with the original brown vinyl highlights on the edges. I've also had the windows tinted to increase the contrast between the gleaming white paint and the dark windows. (Also reduces internal heat)
    • Car already had inertia reels in front, I've fitted new ones and a set in the back as well.
    • Interior lighting was pretty ordinary, so I've slipped a couple of 12 volt fluorescent fittings into the roll under the roof, where they provide a diffuse light reflected off the roof lining, without being visible externally.
    • Fire extinguishers fit neatly between the front seats and the doors.
    • An electric fuel pump controlled from a dash switch lives under the RH sill for priming after it's been sitting a while.
    • I've sacrificed 10% of my gearing by running 205/65-15 tyres, which are readily available and cheap enough I can wear them out on dirt roads without a care in the world.
    • I replaced the flimsy aluminium duct under the front with 4mm aluminium chequer plate cut to size, with vents for the discs and mounting the original ducting on the inside.
    • After losing enough drive shaft studs for a coupling to uncouple, I've modified the drive flanges to take 3 studs and 3 bolts. That won't happen again!

    Not an exhaustive list, but cumulatively they make the car much nicer to live with in the Noughtie Teens (Noughteens?) while keeping the essential DS-ness. (And reliability)

    A purist may not approve of departure from M Citroen's (or more correctly M Lefebfre's) dream but I believe that a car that isn't completely original but gets driven and loved is one more kept on the road, and, in my opinion, far better than having a collector car that one isn't game to use much for fear of undoing all the good work of preserving originality.

    And to put it in perspective, I've rallied, motorkhana'd, Autocrossed, Hill climbed and Toured my car for upwards of 40,000 Km since 2005, and loved every minute of it. It wouldn't have been half as livable doing this if I'd kept it strictly original. The future will see all sorts of other things done. I've already got most of the Megasquirt injection system planned and assembled, but lack the time and space at present (moving house) to realise that particular project.

    As I said before, it's your car and you can do with it what you will. My suggestion is to sit back with a libation of choice and think long and hard at what you want to do with the car before making any hard and fast decisions. If originality is your thing, then by all means maintain it as close as possible and I'll 'ooh and aah" with the best of them when marvelling at the good work you'll undoubtedly put in. (I love to see a beautifully preserved original car, but would be constantly frustrated in owning one like that I think)

    If you want to use it on a regular basis I reckon you'll need to compromise a bit, but the benefits will far outweigh any slight guilt you may feel.

    And in case you think I'm a Citroen Philistine, my plans for Alphonse are to keep him as close as possible to the way he left the factory, albeit with the patina of 55 years worn proudly. My only concession may prove to be one of self preservation, I plan to look at ways of fitting seat belts as unobtrusively as possible, since I also want to drive the thing whenever and wherever I feel like, rarity or no. That being said, plans can change and the work on Alphonse won't commence until later this year when I finally retire.

    My opinions only, not to be taken as gospel, advice or guidance.

    I'll watch your progress with interest and cheer along whatever you do to it. (Up to and including a candy apple paint job! I've always fancied a flame job down the sides of Moby Dick!)

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Dino I can only add a whole hearted plus 1 to what Pottsy has written. We've seen his car and what he has done is sensible in the extreme, this is what I'm doing to my 504.
    My tack is more 'sporty' as such but the Grand plan is for a vehicle you can easily jump into and 'tour the Barossa'.
    It was always said that the best thing you could do to an early Pug was give them an extra 25 bhp that was missing from the factory. This explains the 403 engine into 203, twin carb 403's etc. that is taken for granted as 'period' Peugeot modifications.
    For my very humble , go LHM and this way you make it so it doesn't cause any futher drama's with paint/parts etc.
    Decide on what you want; Restored to OEM, modified to be used daily/weekends or as an extension of your persona (replace the brake fluid with Rakia, don't know if a car has ever been breath tested?)

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Dino,

    I got so carried away with my words I forgot to address the one burning issue I feel strongest about.

    I've read all the impassioned discussions about LHM versus alternatives and to me it's one of those things I'm highly suited for: a No-Brainer!

    Why any manufacturer worthy of classic status would ever use a hydraulic fluid that is hygroscopic is beyond me. The moment any moisture enters the system then it's life becomes finite and decay sets in.

    One of the most inspired decisions Citroen ever made was to go to LHM in the DS. I've dismantled a DS rear brake cylinder that had covered 300,000 faithful kilometres and was only weeping because the 'O' ring had worn to a 'D' shaped cross section. The insides were as clean and shiny as the day they left the factory. Same applied to a brake controller that had not only been sitting open to the elements for years, but even had water inside it. Shiny and new!

    Whatever the opposite of planned obsolescence is, Citroen's got it.

    The second most inspired decision was to use the same LHM in the (relatively) conventional braking system of later 2CVs.

    I've looked up the MSDS for LHM and it's performance at high temperature is equal or superior to most dot 4 or 5 brake fluids. There's even a "seat of the pants" test as well. Many years ago I acquired a CX that had been run on ATF 'cause it was cheaper. When I flushed and returned the system to the proper green stuff the difference in the feel of brakes, suspension and steering was palpable. It was so much smoother the original owner couldn't believe that all I'd changed was the fluid.

    Not saying that brake fluid is as 'sticky' as the ATF was, but for mine, I reckon you'd notice a huge difference.

    For the sake of a replacing a full set of rubber seals with ones that can withstand the rigours of LHM, I'd not hesitate for a minute. A secondary advantage from doing this would be learning how the whole system worked and being reassured of reliability for years to come. Both a big plus in owning a DS.

    And if you want to retain the 'original' look, then keep all the components painted black. After all, apart from looking inside the reservoir (or springing a leak), how else could you tell it had been changed? To me the benefits far outweigh the dubious "non-originality" and if the upgrade is totally invisible, how can it be detrimental?

    There, I've said it and I feel cleansed!

    Your decisions are your own. Your mistakes will be instructive for you and entertaining for us, as indeed have mine been over many years.

    Whichever way you go, we'll be here avidly cheering you on and devouring every new picture and report with a mixture of pleasure, scorn and jealousy.

    Get stuck in (after that libation of choice of course) and enjoy the car however you choose to do so.

    Cheers, Pottsy
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Next project
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  17. #17
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    When I bought my '58 Slough ID19 many moons ago it had been badly resprayed white from the original red over mist grey. In my ignorance I resprayed it red over white (albeit the white was Heidelberg Angora White) and it is something that I have come to regret - I should have stuck to the original.
    roger

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Default Yer wrong about the turbo mate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pastinha View Post
    Dino, go for it!

    I have had a DS as my daily driver for the last few years and I luv it! I still consider myself a young punk (31) and enjoy driving adventures, I'll post some dirt road antics i've been up to in the DS soon.

    Here is a list of Modernisations that I have made to my DS in the last 5yrs it has been on the road.

    • High Torque Valeo starter motor; Starts so much easier!
    • 123 Ignition, Improved reliability, must have.
    • H4 head lights + relays, Headlights that actually work!
    • LPG conversion, Improves engine smoothness vs carby, large increase in economy, cleaner engine oil, why people are still running on petrol is beyond me.
    • Rear parcel shelf brake light; so the Toorak taxis can see when your stopping.
    • Single exhaust pipe after muffler; The exhaust is a major weak point in the system, the after market DS replacement that was highly recommended has a huge restriction in the outlet.
    • Cross flow, higher capacity, aluminium radiator + header tank; similar price to a re-core, massive improvement, allows for better coolant.
    • HT Ignition Leads w/ shielded extension
    • Modern Inertia real seatbelts; enough said.
    I would argue that each one of these is vital to make the DS suitable as a modern daily driver, go anywhere, any time, any distance vehicle.

    The DS's downfalls are, over weight and underpowered, airflow through the engine and running hot.
    I have only improved one of these things, the cooling. Every other mod really just makes it more reliable and a little more efficient.





    What I would like to do next:
    • Remove the fuel system all together, mount a slim LPG tank under the rear seat and a toroidal tank in the very bottom of the boot.
    • Megasquirt, vapour injected LPG setup.
    • Run the exhaust straight out the right side of the engine bay and down the underside of the sill to a side exit; I cant stand bottoming out on the exhaust on an otherwise flat underside any more...
    • Modern twin screw Supercharger running off the AC pulley, there is just no room for a turbo... ;(
    • Test then fit some appropriate air vents in the engine bay to release more trapped air.
    • Plump the intake to a cool source, either before the radiator in the leather shoot, or from the old 'ash tray' style vents in a front guard
    Now I just need some more time and money!

    And if your after some great style ques, check out some of the DS's and ideas on snail2cv.com

    Cheers,

    Harley
    There is room for a turbo at a funny angle above the hydralic pump on a custom manifold. If an air-water intercooler is used, the intercooler radiator can go into the right front guard
    where the AC condenser goes in the factory AC system. Unless you want to have a really good time, a DS21 or 23 IE block with the oil cooler ports would be needed otherwise there isn't any easy way to organise oil for the turbo (the rocker feed is too small)

    The D front wings have a handy box section behind the wheelarch that carries the rear mounts. It is possible to cut a Jensen interceptor style outlet into the outer skin ( drill the corners 3/4" and turn the edges back in- sunroof aperture style) and improve the airflow. A bit of underbody sealer on the inside of the box section and some stainless expanded metal it will look like it was always there.

    On the subject of alternative engines, the D rotates the opposite way from almost everything else (including the CX) however up to 1995 Hondas also rotated the "wrong" way, so a 2.2 accord twin cam may well go into a D. Also worth a look is a Honda Legend V6. This is a 60 degree motor, not 90 degree like the Maserati in the SM.

    Bruce.
    Last edited by Bruce Llewellyn; 18th February 2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: typo

  19. #19
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    Good to hear from you Bruce
    That's great information, as always, I hadn't considered a water2air intercooler, but as the underhood temperatures of the DS already worry me the inclusion of a turbo would turn me grey!

    Have you any pics of the air vent mod, sounds ideal. My dad owned 2 interceptors when I was a wee lad, loud and fast I remember , I'll google them for some inspiration.

    Harley

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    I think I've said enough on this in the past Dino, but since you ask....I very much enjoy a range of old things - furniture, houses, bicycles, and of course my 11BL which continues on it's way - I think I've got everything for my next batch of time on the next school holidays. I used to work inbrhe museums industry & maybe that's where I get my attitude, but but it's in my gut as well and for me 'common sense'. 'As much as necessary, as little as possible' / 'preserve rather than repair, repair rather than restore, restore rather than reconstruct'. You have to interpret this for cars because they have to work if your using them!

    This is why 'unmolested', 'original' , 'untouched' etc etc are of interest to buyers. When this turns out to be true, it's valuable.

    So much of the hertitage of things around us has been diminished by changing 'taste' and a desire to 'modernise' in the name of 'practicality'. We have lost so much to opportunism / bright ideas at the time and so on - the character of whole towns and cities in fact. And then how often have you seen someone fall in love with the lure of something - a house, item of furniture (or an early car), and then set about removing the features that made the item so desirable in the first place and rendering them 'ordinary' - like so much timber or metal, its significance removed. - Original french polish now sanded off and coated with gallons of plastic / original period gardens razed and palms put in with pebble concrete drives - early papers and stencils in early buildings overpainted white to 'freshen the place up'.....there are any number of examples. These things may still work well - though this is not guaranteed - but their history and beauty is lost - very hard to recover despite later attempts to do so. For me cars are pretty similar - although I suppose i'm sold on seat belts / fire extinguishers etc. The more we depart from original specs, the less interesting the car becomes, the less significant because it speaks less of its time. Of course the kinds of things pottsy talks about are to do with specialist needs around rallying etc. I think these are in another class to some extent.

    Originality and significance is very fragile. In the case of paint it's microns thick but hugely significant. The colour speaks volumes - as does the type of paint. The effort to properly preseve a car will be rewarded - it looks, sounds and feels 'right'. And it's not necessarily any harder or more expensive to get it right from the start. It's a thing of beauty and will be a joy forever.

    On rusty panels I agree with what Shane said above somewhere. That just looks like deterioration due to weather exposure and not a gentle patina created over time - I would be refinishing to preserve the panels but I would be using acrylic paint (closer to the original nitro-cellulose) and definitely working from a protected sample - I'm not certain about the accuracy of using the original codes in a modern paint shop - maybe it can be done...

    On LHS2 my views are copiously written about in other threads - I apply the principle of not adding later features if not necessary, it just makes it a different car to what rolled off the production line that year. Sound wise, behaviour wise, appearance wise and black paint wont cut it. Everything is available to restore and maintain the early hydraulic features.

    This should all be read in context! I deeply admire all the work that several people have done in restoring ID cars that might otherwise long since have visited the crusher! And it isn't for anyone other than the owner to second guess the effort that goes into fixing up their car or house. It's all opinion and 'sin' certainly comes into it nowhere! The only sin is if you don't get to indulge your passion when you might have.

    Tim
    Last edited by Middlemoon.1; 19th February 2012 at 08:34 PM.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Default Options- all of the above...

    Hi

    Providing the engineering authorisations for this sort of thing used to be the family business.... but with mainly dirty old ag planes!

    There weren't too many warbirds fortunately, as the decisions the restorers want to make are not necessarily what can be approved...



    http://www.jneaircraftrestoration.com/AM274/AM274.html

    Bruce.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Fantastic Bruce! I'm certainly glad they try though!

    Tim

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    My opinion is also similar to Shane. I do`nt want to do anything unnecessary. If things are working, I don`t want to touch it. But repair what need to be done. I think put car on the road my priority.
    Good luck with your car. I am also struggling with parts and how deep I should go...

    P.S. Are you a big fan of that actress/model in your avatar ( Yeas she is fit isn`t she!!!)

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Where paint is concerned... I would use modern chemicals if at all possible. I find it highly unlikely you will find a paintshop that will paint acrylic laquer, simply because there is no way they would warranty the final product for any length of time (no matter how short... just think tree sap, bird sh!t etc....).

    ie: epoxy primer, 2pack primer/surfacer and 2pack topcoat.

    The interior in Dinos car look fabulous. Like me he only has to sort out a drivers door trim (that should be fun).

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    If you dont like the gloss you can add a flatener

    If these products were available when the cars were new, there is no doubt they would have used them.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  25. #25
    DS
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    In the 26 years I've been driving DS the only mods I've done are:

    123 distrubutor in my ID21F Safari - better starting and much more sustained up hill power.

    Changing my ID19 from LHS2 to LHM.

    I can't even think of anything else I'd do.

    Some classics get so modded that the whole period drive feel is lost.
    Citroen Car Club of New South Wales member.

    My Citroen ID21F can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdr...7605999522616/

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