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Thread: DS Waterpumps

  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default DS Waterpumps

    Hi Guys,

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    who's rebuilding/selling DS water pumps these days. We need one for a '75 DS23 with A/C (so an extra pulley).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Citroenfan, better known as Citraulics in sunny Sylmar.
    http://www.citraulics.com/

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    Last edited by richo; 8th February 2012 at 05:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Citroenfan, better known as Citraulics in sunny Sylmar.
    http://www.citraulics.com/

    Be sure to put your cursor over the image on the upper left to see Steve as he really is.
    There are stories I could tell, but this is supposedly a family-friendly website.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  4. #4
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    The bearing is larger apparently. I'd be inclined to try Roger Parker, but I know you can certainly obtain exchange items from OS at a price.

  5. #5
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    I'm pretty sure I have a 3 pulley (AC) DS water pump that was rebuilt by Chalmers Watt (now deceased) in the early 1990s. Couldn't vouch for its condition now, but was in good nick back then. I am keeping it as collateral for a future swap for a double pulley w pump in good nick. I am restoring a D Special (no AC).
    PM me if you are interested and have a swap, and I will dig it out.
    Ron

  6. #6
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    That would be an uneven swap as the (aftermarket) 2 pulley pumps are available new of the shelf for about $125. The 3 pulley pumps are more of a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    The bearing is larger apparently. I'd be inclined to try Roger Parker, but I know you can certainly obtain exchange items from OS at a price.
    David,

    This is a common misconception re: the pumps. Have rebuilt a fair number of 3 pulley pumps here in the US and so long as they had not been 'messed' with by others, IOW, they were OEM pumps - the bearings used were the same. The problem with the OEM units was the seal system used. This allowed, over time, the intrusion of water into a drainage chamber just in front of the rear bearing. The problem was that in a lot of cases the small vacuum relief hole in the housing became clogged with dirt/grease preventing proper drainage. Water then got into the rear bearing race causing it to wear out.

    Have seen a lot of attempts of putting in larger bearings, in the front, is the mistaken belief that this would improve the pump's longevity. Does not happen. The bearing that takes the most side torque is the rear, not the front.

    The real solution is to use an improved seal system that prevents water intrusion, especially if the cars sit for any period of time between uses. The 3 pulley pump on my own DS has over 107,000 miles on it and still in perfect shape.

    Steve

  8. #8
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    I've not (yet) had the need to dismantle a DS pump, so I can't say I've ever compared the innards. It's interesting that a couple of specialists in other parts of the world have said the bearing arrangement is different for the 3 row pumps to cope with the AC load. I don't have any explanation, but lots of modifications are possible over the life of a D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I've not (yet) had the need to dismantle a DS pump, so I can't say I've ever compared the innards. It's interesting that a couple of specialists in other parts of the world have said the bearing arrangement is different for the 3 row pumps to cope with the AC load. I don't have any explanation, but lots of modifications are possible over the life of a D.

    David,

    I have pulled apart a number of "failed" 3 pulley pumps over the years that had all kinds of internal modifications to address the problem of failed bearings. However none of the them addressed the real problem of the steel stationary seal, which was the root of the problem to start with and that was why the mods never worked. The real problem with the those modification is the machining done to the interior of the pump casting which made (makes) putting them right a PITA. In come cases the wall of the pump body was so thinned out to accommodate the oversize bearings that the Al castings actually became distorted.

    The bearings used by the factory were industry standard 6301 (front) and 6201 (rear) bearings. They have a dynamic load capacity of just a bit over 986 kg each and a top speed rating of 20,000 rpm. The 'mistakes' the factory made (if you can call it that) were the use of that polished steel stationary seal and fully sealed bearings. The Buna-N rubber seals can be warped by the underhood temps allowing the grease to be contaminated and actually flow out. By using high temp shielded bearings the max temp is raised considerably. This is important for the front bearing as it gets hit with hot air from the radiator on a constant basis. And in areas like Southern California (and a lot of Australia) the under hood temps can get quite close or exceed the operating temps for the fully sealed bearings.

    Steve

  10. #10
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    Steve, excellent info. Thanks. I have a few old pumps, so I'll have to investigate them further.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Steve, excellent info. Thanks. I have a few old pumps, so I'll have to investigate them further.

    Hi David,

    Not sure how you plan on removing the pulleys but be aware that pushing them off, esp the 3 groove ones, runs a real risk of damaging the pump housing if one does not have the proper support plate underneath and even then it can be a bit problematical.

    Personally I pull them off.

    Steve

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I tried to press the pulley off a CX pump a couple of years back. They are *TIGHT*. I managed to first shatter the alloy housing ... I had nothing to loose then as the pump was buggered, so I tried harder and bent the absolute sh!t out of the pulley itself. Completely destroyed it. In the end I cut the destroyed pulley off with a grinder.

    I wouldn't even attempt to dismantle a pump that you intend to use. I did ask someone in Perth (I've forgtten his name) about rebuilding the pumps. He turned the shaft out of the pulley and fitted new shafts. IMO this is probably the only way to get some of them apart without complete destruction of the pump

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I tried to press the pulley off a CX pump a couple of years back. They are *TIGHT*. I managed to first shatter the alloy housing ... I had nothing to loose then as the pump was buggered, so I tried harder and bent the absolute sh!t out of the pulley itself. Completely destroyed it. In the end I cut the destroyed pulley off with a grinder.

    I wouldn't even attempt to dismantle a pump that you intend to use. I did ask someone in Perth (I've forgtten his name) about rebuilding the pumps. He turned the shaft out of the pulley and fitted new shafts. IMO this is probably the only way to get some of them apart without complete destruction of the pump

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Hi Shane,

    The OEM pumps (Citroen ones) for the D's are not that tight, though the aftermarket ones are as you describe for the CX. I suspect that the pulley's on these are heated to around 400-500F prior to putting on the shafts. Which makes them basically impossible to remove by any means other than heating and either pulling or pushing. Or cutting the bloody pulley off which makes the pump useless unless you have some extra pulleys laying around .

    The D pumps can be successfully pressed off if a suitable support plate is under the pump - however I have seen an occasional one where the housing broke due to corrosion at the pulley end. I prefer to pull them off as it puts no stress on the housings.

    Steve

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    David,

    This is a common misconception re: the pumps. Have rebuilt a fair number of 3 pulley pumps here in the US and so long as they had not been 'messed' with by others, IOW, they were OEM pumps - the bearings used were the same. The problem with the OEM units was the seal system used. This allowed, over time, the intrusion of water into a drainage chamber just in front of the rear bearing. The problem was that in a lot of cases the small vacuum relief hole in the housing became clogged with dirt/grease preventing proper drainage. Water then got into the rear bearing race causing it to wear out.

    Have seen a lot of attempts of putting in larger bearings, in the front, is the mistaken belief that this would improve the pump's longevity. Does not happen. The bearing that takes the most side torque is the rear, not the front.

    The real solution is to use an improved seal system that prevents water intrusion, especially if the cars sit for any period of time between uses. The 3 pulley pump on my own DS has over 107,000 miles on it and still in perfect shape.

    Steve
    Except for the time the impeller came off and the car showed up here on a lorry.

  15. #15
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    Still have never been able to satisfactorily explain why it loosened upped. But it did. OTOH that was the pump that was on the engine when I got the car in 2002 with a bit over 496,000 total miles on it. Sure that the pump was not original, but it was a factory 3 groove pulley unit and discovered it was on the verge of self destruction when I pulled it from the engine. For those that do not know, the car was rescued from a 'crushing' fate, had a blown engine and worn out hydraulic system with a Al pretzel that was masquerading as a cylinder head.

    OTOH it did go an additional 70,000 odd miles before bidding us adieu - sort of like the water pump manifold that finally fractured at one of the attachment points to the head on the cross country trip to NY in 2009 in the bustling community of Wamsutter, WY (pop about 260).

    Steve

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    ...
    OTOH it did go an additional 70,000 odd miles before bidding us adieu - sort of like the water pump manifold that finally fractured at one of the attachment points to the head on the cross country trip to NY in 2009 in the bustling community of Wamsutter, WY (pop about 260).

    Steve

    I'd heard that Wamsutter had a thriving Citroen workshop for a short time in 2009.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts arunine's Avatar
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    There was someone in Melbourne that Paris Motors used to use to do 3-pulley water pumps.
    The one I have just replaced came from over there over 20 years ago. The casting corroded out, that's why it has now been replaced.
    DS 21
    C4 HDI
    Piaggio Fly 125

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I learnt something else about water pumps today.... I thought I was aware of pretty much all water pump differences where fitted to CX's. There's a friends CX in the shed I've put a new lower mount in ...... And I noticed it was dripping coolant on me whenever I was under the car ............................... Hmmm.... bugger, from the drain hole on the water pump. Well it can't leave here when it's leaking coolant from the pump.

    I have a rebuilt spare here I thought I'll stick on there ...



    Look at the A/C pulley attachment.... I don't bloody believe it, there is two different types. The rebuilt one is a 6stud pulley with a different sized center bore. Also note: the '85 model car has a much bigger alternator pulley (I'll have to get me one of them for the turbo).

    So I hunted around all the pumps and cars I could find and they all had different offset pulleys for the A/C ... none fitting the 6stud one (grrrr). I imagine the 6stud is used with the big old york A/C pumps.

    While searching through the cars I spotted something interesting...



    A 3pulley DS pump was on the back floor of one of the cars.... The bearings feel tight... the impeller looks good and the body is good...





    A bolt on pulley I'll see if it can be unbolted... if the pump readily comes apart then you can easily freshen up the seals and bearings without worrying about damaging anything!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS Waterpumps-p1060849.jpg   DS Waterpumps-p1060852.jpg   DS Waterpumps-p1060853.jpg   DS Waterpumps-p1060854.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I learnt something else about water pumps today.... I thought I was aware of pretty much all water pump differences where fitted to CX's. There's a friends CX in the shed I've put a new lower mount in ...... And I noticed it was dripping coolant on me whenever I was under the car ............................... Hmmm.... bugger, from the drain hole on the water pump. Well it can't leave here when it's leaking coolant from the pump.

    I have a rebuilt spare here I thought I'll stick on there ...


    I'll bet that pump on the right is an SKF rebuild. Note the smaller diameter of the double pulley for the belts coming from the camshaft. This spins the whole assembly faster for the benefit of A/C and cooling. According to my calculations A/C on the pump on the right is running at 1.44 times engine speed, the one on the left about 1.22 times engine speed.

    Greg
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

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